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Joy & Austin 28: loss and mourning


laPapessaGiovanna

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21 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Can you please point to where this happened in this circumstance (or even elsewhere)?

But for the love of Rufus not here.  It is disrupting the thread, IMO.  I made a thread in Community Discussion specially for the people who are so upset by being disagreed with on FJ. ;)

 

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9 hours ago, LacyMay said:

We speculate on when the next Duggar daughter is due, we speculate on gender, we dissect sex reveals etc we choose to be a part of their pregnancy journey even to snark on it. Inevitably a part of that journal will involve loss. I don't remember seeing nearly as much discussion or controversy about seeing Jessa and Ben post about Ivy's birth, not a lot of discussion about then being taken advantage of of coerced to share. So why is sharing a loss any different? Because it's uncomfortable? 

Well put.

In discussions of Quiverfull people, stillbirth, traumatic childbirth, sexual coercion, abuse, and maternal death are inevitable topics. Lives patterned around reproduction (from courtship to marriage to pregnancy/gender reveal/hour-long birth special) are always haunted by these unmanageable outcomes; our discussions are going to be haunted by them too.

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Sometimes people do work they don’t want to do, because they have to earn a living. Might be the same for some of the Duggars. 

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3 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

 I hope that those who are of this generation genuinely do not mind what seems to me at times to be oversharing, instead of just doing what is expected.

 

I don't think the generation thinks of it as oversharing, and I think that's where the biggest difference is. I feel like it is normalizing life in a way and sharing that different experiences are okay and normal too. For example I really like to share about my pre and post partum depression as a way of breaking stigmas and normalizing the experience for others so that if they experience it they don't feel as lost as I did and they know they can reach out. But it horrifies my mother that I dare speak its name let alone tell anyone that I went to therapy for it and used antidepressants. 

On the other hand you have a lot of people in the same generation who like to try and get "hate likes" by making their life look fabulous. But there's always going to be a action for every reaction. 

That's just my take on it though :)

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22 minutes ago, Daisy0322 said:

I don't think the generation thinks of it as oversharing, and I think that's where the biggest difference is.

Everyone gets to determine for themselves what oversharing is, for them. I respect that some (many) have no problem putting things on social media that even if I had social media, I wouldn't dream of having out there.  If it helps (generic) you to do what would be oversharing to me, have at it!

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I had a miscarriage at 13 weeks. One of the hardest parts of this is my oldest daughter who was twelve at the time was with me at the appointment when they couldn't find the heartbeat. As far as Joy and Austin, I have no doubt their grief is real but I am also wary that they will use their loss to push their political anti-choice beliefs. Wasn't it Rick Santorum and his wife who brought home their miscarried fetus so that their other children could meet their "sibling" and they could take pictures? I know they referenced this many times to underscore their anti-choice beliefs

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On 7/4/2019 at 3:53 PM, AtlanticTug said:

In addition to the obvious devastating part of this story, we will almost certainly have Joy pregnant again by the end of the year regardless of whether she is ready for it mentally, physically or emotionally.

I blame JimBob and Michelle for the relentless impregnations and a race to get to 20 without regard for your existing children. And until Josie & Jubilee, Michelle had a remarkably easy time with her pregnancies. None were complicated medically, none had special interventions, or resulted in premature births or children with disabilities or serious genetic issues or medically frail children, etc. All those girls saw growing up was a baby factory. And it simply has not gone nearly as well for the second generation and I'm not entirely sure that they are able to detach from the situation to realize that Michelle was basically a medical phenomenon and not an example of what to do.

I was just going to post something similar.  This is true of most of the people we discuss here.  Until recently, most of these families have been INCREDIBLY lucky and I would guess have beaten statistical averages many times over.

Think about how many people we follow that have had 10+ kids born full term with few if any, complications.

Joy is so young and she will likely have many more pregnancies.   I can't imagine the stress and anxiety she will go through.  

It must be very hard on the girls when their mother popped out babies like a gumball machine and all of them have had some kind of complication at birth or have lost a baby.   I think Anna is the only one that has had multiple, uncomplicated pregnancies like Michelle, but she's not a Duggar.  

The second generation Keller women seem to be quite lucky as well.  In Esther's case that is good because we all know John doesn't give a shit about her well being during pregnancy/labor.

I hope Joy and Austin have support, love and some kind of counseling.  I hope someone also tells them that even though they are essentially public figures and in the public eye that doesn't mean they *have* to share everything with the general public.

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The picture of Joy, Austin, Michelle and Jill was the one that really got me - the tear running down Joy’s cheek, she just looks so heartbroken

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3 hours ago, pook said:

We would also take footprints, place a purple butterfly on the door to identify this was a bereavement situation, ask if the family wanted to meet with the chaplin, and many times cry very openly with the family.

That's a thoughtful way of identifying a room with people going through a difficult time. How kind to let all the people working and volunteering know without being disrespectful to the family, or disturbing other families. 

I think my mom told me once that when she gave birth to her first child, the non-private room she was in included a lady who had suffered a pregnancy loss, in a bed right next to the ladies who had their babies coming from the nursery to be fed. (It was the 60s. Most hospitals had a nursery and a schedule that the moms and babies had to follow.) My mom felt awful for the lady, but it was the way things were done at the time. I'm glad we've found more compassionate ways to help grieving parents. 

And a big thank you to all the amazing nurses in our world. You are so important!

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1 hour ago, Daisy0322 said:

I don't think the generation thinks of it as oversharing, and I think that's where the biggest difference is. I feel like it is normalizing life in a way and sharing that different experiences are okay and normal too. For example I really like to share about my pre and post partum depression as a way of breaking stigmas and normalizing the experience for others so that if they experience it they don't feel as lost as I did and they know they can reach out. But it horrifies my mother that I dare speak its name let alone tell anyone that I went to therapy for it and used antidepressants. 

On the other hand you have a lot of people in the same generation who like to try and get "hate likes" by making their life look fabulous. But there's always going to be a action for every reaction. 

That's just my take on it though :)

I think when it comes to things like depression, grief, and illness social media has been a huge blessing for a lot of people. Rarely will you hear one who chose to share later say “Oh I wish I had less support doing my depression” or “I wish I had never met a community of people who share the same rare illness as me.” It is a way to be heard and for some just knowing others are thinking about them and reaching out with empathy or sympathy really means a lot. For instance I think Joy could take a lot of comfort from total strangers saying I’ve been there before and I made it through. That sort of thing always meant a lot to me when I couldn’t imagine how I could not only make it through but function like a normal person again. There was something quite calming at knowing those people felt what I felt and that they made it. 

 

I also think there is a huge a huge difference between “My personality and coping methods means sharing like that would be unhelpful to me” and “YOU OVERSHARE”. One comes off as empathetic while the other seems like one is  attempting to brag about their stoicism and “strength”. It can also shame those who are scared to reach out. There is still too much stigma surrounding reaching out for help and those who don’t need to shouldn’t. But looking down at those who do need to share serves no purpose. 

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22 minutes ago, Letizia said:

I think when it comes to things like depression, grief, and illness social media has been a huge blessing for a lot of people. Rarely will you hear one who chose to share later say “Oh I wish I had less support doing my depression” or “I wish I had never met a community of people who share the same rare illness as me.” It is a way to be heard and for some just knowing others are thinking about them and reaching out with empathy or sympathy really means a lot. For instance I think Joy could take a lot of comfort from total strangers saying I’ve been there before and I made it through. That sort of thing always meant a lot to me when I couldn’t imagine how I could not only make it through but function like a normal person again. There was something quite calming at knowing those people felt what I felt and that they made it. 

 

I also think there is a huge a huge difference between “My personality and coping methods means sharing like that would be unhelpful to me” and “YOU OVERSHARE”. One comes off as empathetic while the other seems like one is  attempting to brag about their stoicism and “strength”. It can also shame those who are scared to reach out. There is still too much stigma surrounding reaching out for help and those who don’t need to shouldn’t. But looking down at those who do need to share serves no purpose. 

I see that you didn't like my post. You didn't get that I was saying that oversharing is relative, and missed my point that everyone is at liberty to share as they see fit. I think the internet has been helpful, not just social media. Online communities can be supportive, hell even FJ is supportive although it is not our stated mission.  I also said that each person gets to determine what, for them, would be oversharing. It has nothing to do with stoicism or strength, some people are just very private and prefer to reach out to those they know IRL or IRL resources for help and support. That's all. I neither criticize nor look down on anyone for their choices, although I may cringe sometimes. I think the stigma around reaching out for help has largely diminished. 

2 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Everyone gets to determine for themselves what oversharing is, for them. I respect that some (many) have no problem putting things on social media that even if I had social media, I wouldn't dream of having out there.  If it helps (generic) you to do what would be oversharing to me, have at it!

Quoting myself to show that I criticized no one for what, TO ME, would be oversharing. I said if it helps you to be out there in a way I won't, have at it. I have no idea what the problem with this post is.  Even the most open and disclosing person may have a limit to what they will put out there, ie, where the oversharing line is. Some folks don't like the term oversharing, I guess, but to say there is no such thing is disingenuous. Some people are private, some aren't, and I never said one was better than the other. Please don't infer a negative tone or meaning that is not there, @Letizia

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6 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

By the way, Reddit Duggarsnark actually has a younger demographic yet disagrees with the Duggar offspring frequently and is strict regarding “leg-humping”. IMO, FJ is far more sympathetic toward the Duggar girls.By the way, that HuffPost article was an opinion article where they frequently have people spout polarizing views.

Please just go hang out there. Please.

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2 hours ago, Curious said:

 I think Anna is the only one that has had multiple, uncomplicated pregnancies like Michelle, but she's not a Duggar. 

Anna has had several miscarriages they kept private IIRC

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7 minutes ago, physicalscience said:

Anna has had several miscarriages they kept private IIRC

Anna has only mentioned one loss, their second pregnancy, publicly as far as I know. If she has had other losses I don't believe she has shared that. 

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2 hours ago, BlessaYourHeart said:

The picture of Joy, Austin, Michelle and Jill was the one that really got me - the tear running down Joy’s cheek, she just looks so heartbroken

Full on tears here too. Except Michelle. I have never once been able to detect a true emotion on that woman's face. Even in this picture,  she seems calculated.  Maybe she's just my BEC and I can't see past it. 

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I think my quibble with the term "overshare" is that it tends to infer that they shared *too much* and should have shared less. But that's going to be an always present issue on FJ, the internet doesn't let you hear tone and different people have different definitions for words. 

I do think that the increased tendency towards sharing things on social media (pregnancy loss, mental illness, etc) has done a lot towards normalizing topics that were once less spoken about and they are topics that deserve to be normalized. PPD shouldn't *need* to feel like something that can only be discussed in a whisper behind a closed door, pregnancy loss shouldn't *have* to be a secret burden for families to hold close. 

I love stories, I love hearing the stories of others and sharing my own and I think as a society sharing each others grief, challenges, successes etc allows us to better navigate our own. 

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What sad news. Poor Joy and Austin. I've often said that I'm not happy when the young Duggars (like Lauren, Kendra, and Joy) have baby after baby, but I would never in a million years wish for them to have such a devastaging loss. I can't even imagine.

I personally support Joy's decision to share these photos. I am at the point in my life when I'm starting to seriously think about trying to concieve, and I've wondered how I'd deal with miscarriage/stillbirth if it happens. I am a private person--despite my generation, I don't overshare on social media--but I think I'd probably share photos if I lost a baby. Because Annabelle was a real, wanted baby, and they have a right to try to find meaning in her life. Her life meant something to them. It should be celebrated like all lives are when they end. And maybe Joy sharing her photos will help others who deal with a similar loss. 

Some people have mentioned the photos being triggering. I agree with @VelociRapture and others who said that isn't Joy and Austin's fault. Their post was tasteful, and no one's forcing anyone to scroll all the way through. If it's uncomfortable, well, sorry but that's life. And death--even the death of children and babies--is a part of life. It should make you uncomfortable, and it should also help you empathize with them. Triggering is more serious, and anyone who was triggered should do what they need to help themselves mentally (including seeking professional help/support groups) but that still isn't Joy and Austin's fault. Again, no one's forcing anyone to look at those photos. 

If your first thought on hearing about Annabelle's death is to criticize Joy for her political beliefs or selling out--when she hasn't done either yet-- well I'm sorry, but I find that appaling. 

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AARGH! Was trying to delete a double post and deleted the whole thing. 

I have not posted one critical word about Joy and Austin's decision to post Annabelle's pictures. I'm not concerned with what other people decide is an appropriate level of sharing for them.  I didn't infer anything, I said what I meant.

I have shared my feelings about my mother's death last year in several threads, so it hardly means that because I am basically very private I don't share anything.  Hell, someone might think I overshared, according to THEIR standard for sharing.  We share A LOT on FJ about our losses and grief, and offer support too. Pretty much nothing is forbidden or taboo here.

I just wish those of us who lean to private would be as respected and understood as those who do not. I'm not some emotionally stunted or repressed person just because I don't use social media to process my losses. I do think people should be more circumspect about sharing about third parties without their permission.  I'm going to make dinner now, it's getting late, I'm tired, and should stop posting. 

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38 minutes ago, BernRul said:

What sad news. Poor Joy and Austin. I've often said that I'm not happy when the young Duggars (like Lauren, Kendra, and Joy) have baby after baby, but I would never in a million years wish for them to have such a devastaging loss. I can't even imagine.

I personally support Joy's decision to share these photos. I am at the point in my life when I'm starting to seriously think about trying to concieve, and I've wondered how I'd deal with miscarriage/stillbirth if it happens. I am a private person--despite my generation, I don't overshare on social media--but I think I'd probably share photos if I lost a baby. Because Annabelle was a real, wanted baby, and they have a right to try to find meaning in her life. Her life meant something to them. It should be celebrated like all lives are when they end. And maybe Joy sharing her photos will help others who deal with a similar loss. 

Some people have mentioned the photos being triggering. I agree with @VelociRapture and others who said that isn't Joy and Austin's fault. Their post was tasteful, and no one's forcing anyone to scroll all the way through. If it's uncomfortable, well, sorry but that's life. And death--even the death of children and babies--is a part of life. It should make you uncomfortable, and it should also help you empathize with them. Triggering is more serious, and anyone who was triggered should do what they need to help themselves mentally (including seeking professional help/support groups) but that still isn't Joy and Austin's fault. Again, no one's forcing anyone to look at those photos. 

If your first thought on hearing about Annabelle's death is to criticize Joy for her political beliefs or selling out--when she hasn't done either yet-- well I'm sorry, but I find that appaling. 

This is very nice. Thank you.

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Ugh, I made the mistake of reading the comment section to that beautiful HuffPo (not something I say often) article. Those comments are cancer.

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I've been following Duggars since 2013, and this is the first time I actually grasp how dangerous and hard this lifestyle is for the women in cult. 
By the time they reach menopause, a lot of them will be wracks, physically and mentally. 

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29 minutes ago, TeaELSee said:

I don’t see the purpose in judging how someone grieves. The way people cry and openly grieve can make me very uncomfortable, but that is my problem not theirs.  

I lost a child when he was 12 years old and it was incredibly difficult. This may sound strange but I’ve often thought having a stillborn baby might be more difficult . It is every mother’s worst fear. Not knowing your son or daughter, the abrupt cessation of a healthy, wanted pregnancy, not knowing what went wrong coupled with the unending list of what-if’s seems so open ended. I don’t deal well with unknowns and I know I would feel a deep loss, guilt and anxiety.  It isn’t a contest, nobody sincerely grieves in right or wrong ways. I simply feel so sad for Joy and Austin.

 

I'm so sorry for your loss. 

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