Dillards 78: Taste the Rainbow

[Gnomewizard]

1 hour ago, PennySycamore said:

The thing that just occurred to me is that a man with a doctorate would never have been addressed  as Mr Lastname in a professional situation.  I can see why that would irritate this teacher.

In the given situation I agree.

If the work and social culture was one where this level of education was the norm then it would not be common for everyone to be addressed as Dr. Lastname. Just like in most work environments you do not call your coworkers Mr. Lastname or Mrs. Lastname. 

 

[Zebedee]

5 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

The thing that just occurred to me is that a man with a doctorate would never have been addressed  as Mr Lastname in a professional situation.  I can see why that would irritate this teacher.

Yes! So, I did my PhD in Theoretical Astrophysics. My supervisor (about 76 now) was Dr HerLastName when she got married to her husband, who was doing a doctorate, but was still Mr HisLastName. They went away to a conference somewhere cool, like Hawaii, and incorporated their honeymoon. They returned a few weeks later (this is late 60s/early 70s). He shared an office as a grad student, she had her own. Suddenly, she was "Mrs HisLastName" on her door (And, of course, she was well known professionally as Initial. HerLastName in publications (women already knew that, esp in a so-called male field, you just used initials, not FirstName as many men do. They had experienced enough crap from people assuming a woman can't do maths/physics/engineering etc) , so it was also an erasing of her achievements, not just herself). And getting a new passport, well... She had to get a solicitor involved, as banks etc were trying to tell her that she *had* to take his name, etc. Never true, and fortunately she won out on that. But it took a few years until people started addressing her as Dr, whichever surname they used.

She has a formidable reputation amongst astrophysicists of her age - mainly because she always attacked them when they basically cited her work as "Mrs HisLastName" (or didn't cite her at all). She never attacked the younger people, of course - and she was always HerFirstName to us grad students upwards - but to many, she was terrifying (and rightly so, given the belittling, stealing of work, and sexual harassment that she was just expected to tolerate).

Amusingly enough, she supported her husband for many more years before he finished his doctorate (not  snarking on that, it happens, I know!) and has basically all the national and international honours (bar a Nobel Prize). Those men who humiliated her(or tried to), pinched her research etc have never come close. She was very particular about her Dr. though - if you were an undergrad/equal/superior for many years, and I can see why. (Also, partly, before "Ms" became a choice, she just resented the whole "Mrs/miss" thing. Now she's a Prof. (UK) and a Dame, and God forbid anyone being more formal than Dr!).

I think partly it's the Mrs/Miss thing, partly that a man's achievements would never be downgraded like this, and partly, depending on when they got their doctorate, and what subject it was in, a (very valid, IMHO) pride in having come through an environment. I cannot actually find anything at all wrong with insisting on your title being used. (Especially if, as was the case in my school for a while, there were married Dr HisLastNames; I deliberately asked for Dr HisLastName if I wanted the wife, he was Mr. Dr. HisLastName. I just couldn't deal with how it seemed so automatic that, to avoid confusion, *she* had to "downgrade" - I mean, she'd already changed her name, their children had his name - why should she automatically be the one to also "lose" her degree? 

[justoneoftwo]

My dad has a PhD and was always Mr. Last name, my mom was Dr. Last name. (Except when we moved to the south, then people who didn't know them called them both Dr. and he didn't get his phone messages for 6 months until I figured it out)

[FluffySnowball]

4 hours ago, Zebedee said:

Yes! So, I did my PhD in Theoretical Astrophysics.

Amazing. Astrophysics is a subject I will never be able to understand even in the slightest, which makes it seem even more interesting. Well, forget about interesting, miraculous and fascinating. 

[xenobia]

Mr Xenobia is a university professor here in Sweden. I told him about this conversation and asked how he was titled here in Sweden and abroad.

In the US (and most parts of the world) he's almost always Professor Last Name. Before he was a professor, he was known as Associate professor Last name, and Before that Dr. But people don't use titles here in Sweden. His colleagues and PhD-students just call him his first name, and everyone is okay with that.  He said that one important thing he teaches his students is that they should use titels when they communicate with other Dr's/professors around the globe At least until they get to know each other and the other person says "call me Mike" or something like that. Titles - even Mr and Ms - is not something that comes naturally when you've never done that before. 

So my point is that titles is also very much a cultural thing, and what's common/standard in one place isn't neccesarliy how it's done in other corners of the world. 

[CarrotCake]

Here Mr/Ms are almost never used.

In university you would maybe use Professor LastName if you haven't talked to them personally, after that just Firstname only or Firstname Lastname when you refer to them to others. Only in high school teachers are usually called Mr.LastName and Ms.LastName. 

And it is more and more common to not change your name when you get married. It is never officially changed here anyway, you will always officially keep your maiden name, you just are allowed to use your husband's (as he is allowed to use yours). This results in most younger married women to keep on using their real name, especially for work.

I am getting married in spring and I plan to keep my own name for work but will start using my husband's name when it comes to things that involve children (if I am lucky enough to have them) or the whole family in general.

[Four is Enough]

3 hours ago, CarrotCake said:

I am getting married in spring and I plan to keep my own name for work but will start using my husband's name when it comes to things that involve children (if I am lucky enough to have them) or the whole family in general.

If you use your husband's name "sometimes" there may be issues with identifying yourself clearly for tax purposes, etc.

I did not take Mr. Four's name at ALL. The children, however, all bear his name. People sometimes call me "Mrs. Four", and I'll redirect them if I see fit, but I am Ms. MyName. With this current lust for identifying oneself as "born in America"..... I'm glad I have just my name to contend with.

[Jinder Roles]

In the U.S (where I went to college) I always addressed teachers as Professor Lastname first. A lot of them weren’t picky and actually preferred first names. 

In the Caribbean, you can only be a professor if you have tenure. Other university teachers are lecturers who are called Dr/Mr/Ms Lastname. 

It’s very uncommon to first name your lecturers or professors. 

But then again my best friends’ parents have always been either Aunt/Uncle Firstname or Mr/Mrs Lastname. You don’t  first name your elders. 

[VelociRapture]

My general rule is that I call people what they want to be called. If I don’t know then I either ask (if I don’t know their name at all) or I go by the more formal version. So, for teachers, I’d likely go based off the syllabus or how they introduce themselves in person on the first day. If a professor referred to themselves as “Dr. Jones” I’d use that, if they introduced themself as “Professor Jones” then I’d call them that, and if they inform the class their name is “Indy” then that’s how I’d address them. It’s all about showing respect for what each individual person prefers. 

[PennySycamore]

My husband has a PhD, but the people he works with just call him by his first name.  His clients might use his title though.  I think some of my daughters' friends might use his title as well.  My brother is a retired vet.  After he quit veterinary practice, he taught high school physics.  He was always known as Doctor by his students.  I met some of his former students at Furman and they thought that he was an awesome teacher.  

[CarrotCake]

16 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

If you use your husband's name "sometimes" there may be issues with identifying yourself clearly for tax purposes, etc.

 

You choose one that you use for the government, I will probably use both names hyphenated which is most common.

It is so common here to use mutiple names that is usually causes no problem.

[StraightOuttaArkansas]

Finally caught up. Seriously, moving is really hard and going between countries with kids is like switching to advanced mode.

I feel bad that my being behind dredged up the titles conversation again, sorry about that. I would like to clarify on my story though, we all called her Dr. and had no problem with that. She had a PhD in history, not sure it that is male dominated or not? I was just relaying her insistence to this one specific person which I personally always found a bit silly since it was a stale mate situation and basically happened every day in our class. She was a pretty good teacher for what it is worth and 15 years later, one of the few I tell stories about (this one among others, she was a bit of a rebel too ). I really hope no one thought I was trying to downgrade her something.

Another story with titles, my SIL did her PhD in medicine. My FIL found it very strange that the mail was addressed to Dr. and Mr. Lastname and told his SIL (jokingly) that he needed to get his title quick. He never did and never felt a need to. I know it was a joke comment and I don't think it ever bothered her, but as much as I loved my FIL, I was always a bit bothered by it. Life goes on though.

The other think I still wanted to add a comment on is the whole "Jill following him to LR" thing. I am also in the camp of not seeing an issue with it. As pointed out above, it is a 3 hour commute and that likely without traffic. Something has not been pointed out yet is the sheer lack of things to do in AR. The Rogers/Fayettville area is really growing and has a lot, but outside of that are there is just nothing to do other than nature. If it were me I would jump at the chance to go to Little Rock and see some new things. There are quite a few more activities for kids, there is a water park, splash pad downtown, the Museum of Discovery which was just redone a year or so ago, the River Market area, the Clinton Library often has exhibits that have nothing to do with politics (we went to a dino one with our son a few years ago while there). The Mid America Science Museum they went to is really great. I loved it as a child we took our son there (on the same trip as above) where he loved it too. They have a lot of interactive exhibits and really seem to try to keep it up to date. It is in Hot Springs which has quite a few things to do and is only about an hours drive from Little Rock. I would totally buy that Jillymuffin is considering this a summer vacation.

[justmissedquiver]

On 8/12/2019 at 2:56 PM, HarleyQuinn said:

Don't the Duggars have connections all over Arkansas? Being associated with a Duggar probably landed Wreck that job moreso than qualifications. They hired someone who openly harassed a minor online. It says a lot about that AG, frankly.

I've worked in law firms my entire career.  An internship with the AG is not too impressive. All he needed to accomplish in the selection process was to not make a complete ass of himself.  An accomplishment for him, but nothing outstanding.  In my experience federal judicial clerkships had the most prestige, big law was next in line, and positions in administrative law, like the AG, bureau of workers comp, etc... were the leftovers.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

A good friend of mine is getting married, she has a PhD so she is Dr Lastname and goes by that and will always go by that  professionally, but for 1 day she will be Mrs. His first name his last name i.e. Mrs. Joe Smith. She's in her late 40's and he's 10 to 12 years younger than she is. She & her fiance have been living together for around 12 years now, they are very progressive political and very politically active, and she, like me, on her wedding day is going out virginal traditional bride, the dress, the vows all of it. This is the 1st marriage for both.  When I got our invites to her wedding and it was addressed to Mr. & Mrs. AlltheNames. I think this may be only the 2nd time in my married life (23 years)  I've been addressed as Mrs. Mr names 1st and last name. The 1st was at my own wedding. 

 

[libgirl2]

My husband's niece (and God daughter) got married to her long time boy friend in December. They are in their very early 20s. He took her last name. I found out by chance due to a sibling that moved and checking on FB as we were not only not invited, we didn't even know. Its a long story of family not getting along but I still find it very sad. His sister, the girl's mother is a big of a nutcase. Okay, she is a real nutcase who made accusations against a family member involving my husband and then recanted. 

As for him taking her last name, her father passed several years ago and she is the only grandchild on his side. Maybe its to pass on the family name? 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

1 hour ago, justmissedquiver said:

I've worked in law firms my entire career.  An internship with the AG is not too impressive. All he needed to accomplish in the selection process was to not make a complete ass of himself.  An accomplishment for him, but nothing outstanding.  In my experience federal judicial clerkships had the most prestige, big law was next in line, and positions in administrative law, like the AG, bureau of workers comp, etc... were the leftovers.

You know, half of your class was in the bottom half of your class. Lots of people don’t have the prestige clerkships or big firms, but have reasonably successful careers anyway, sometimes in public service. We’d appreciate not being dismissed as the “leftovers.” Thanks.

[justmissedquiver]

1 hour ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

You know, half of your class was in the bottom half of your class. Lots of people don’t have the prestige clerkships or big firms, but have reasonably successful careers anyway, sometimes in public service. We’d appreciate not being dismissed as the “leftovers.” Thanks.

No offense meant, as someone speaking from the servant class of the legal profession.

[Smee]

6 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

My husband's niece (and God daughter) got married to her long time boy friend in December. They are in their very early 20s. He took her last name. I found out by chance due to a sibling that moved and checking on FB as we were not only not invited, we didn't even know. Its a long story of family not getting along but I still find it very sad. His sister, the girl's mother is a big of a nutcase. Okay, she is a real nutcase who made accusations against a family member involving my husband and then recanted. 

As for him taking her last name, her father passed several years ago and she is the only grandchild on his side. Maybe its to pass on the family name? 

I have a friend whose husband took her last name too. She had an established writing career under her name and you can’t retrospectively change the author on most publications, but they both wanted to share a surname when they got married. Since they’re not especially traditional and don’t appreciate the notion of “headship” it was a no-brainer for them to just change his name instead.

My sister is Dr Lastname (a postdoctoral researcher, so she doesn’t have students but she still works in academia and publishes scientific papers etc) and in a serious long term relationship that will hopefully include children at some point. She’d like to get married eventually but it’s not a priority right now and when she does, she is unlikely to change her name, at least not in a professional setting. She certainly won’t accept being called Mrs rather than Dr. Hyphenating their surnames would sound/look weird (two occupation-surnames that start with the same letter, think Tanner-Taylor), so they’ll probably give any children his surname. I don’t like that in these situations, the child’s surname is determined by the father rather than the mother, but he’s not interested in taking her surname and hundreds of years of sexist tradition will most likely dictate what happens with their kids. I went hyper-traditional white church wedding and took my husband’s last name when I was 21 before I had a career, so my opinion is somewhat hypocritical, but still...

[Zebedee]

I taught an American visiting student Physics for one year - he was quite religious and decided to become a Lutheran pastor when he returned to the US. He was a really nice guy, but, given the religion, and the fact he came from somewhere like ND or ID, I was astonished when I saw, a) him and his fiancee at a pro-choice demo in ND, b) that he changed his name to hers! 2 kids on, and he continues to be a good guy: he got kicked out of a deaconry for condemning white supremacy recently, too. (Helps that his wife works, and they were not having to rely on one salary, too). 
Weirdly, though, a few of my (male) friends (married, kept their own surnames, childfree) were absolutely insistent that any hypothetical children would have to have *their* surnames.

[mstee]

1 hour ago, Zebedee said:

I taught an American visiting student Physics for one year - he was quite religious and decided to become a Lutheran pastor when he returned to the US. He was a really nice guy, but, given the religion, and the fact he came from somewhere like ND or ID, I was astonished when I saw, a) him and his fiancee at a pro-choice demo in ND, b) that he changed his name to hers! 2 kids on, and he continues to be a good guy: he got kicked out of a deaconry for condemning white supremacy recently, too. (Helps that his wife works, and they were not having to rely on one salary, too). 
Weirdly, though, a few of my (male) friends (married, kept their own surnames, childfree) were absolutely insistent that any hypothetical children would have to have *their* surnames.

He sounds like a good guy. My husband was raised Lutheran. While there Is a sect of Lutherans that are extreme, the mainstream Lutheran church seems to be pretty progressive. We live in rural Ohio and my mother in law still attends a Lutheran church and they recently married a gay couple there. 

[adidas]

Short story and disclaimer: I took my husband’s surname when we got married. 

.......

Long story: we both agonised over it. For a long time.

I wanted us to all have the same surname. DH didn’t care what that surname was. He offered to change his surname to mine but parental resistance meant we felt uncomfortable with that option. As I’ve posted here before, I was moving out of fundiedom.

We both have long surnames and it was my decision not to give our children a super long double-barrelled surname. His preference was that we hyphenate but I vetoed it. Huge regrets.

His father was dying and asked me if we could please consider not letting their family surname die out. Our kids were the last possible chance. FIL was an only child and Dh’s brother is gay with absolutely no plans of ever having a child. 

So I did it.

I still use my old surname name socially. I answer to either and people call me by both. Legally and professionally I use his surname. Our kids just have his. We intended for my old surname to be their middle name but an emotional decision due to another family death meant that a different middle name was used in its place.

So his family name lives on through my kids. And now it’s up to my brother to carry on our family surname. His kids are the last possible chance. I feel really guilty about it.  

I wish we’d double barrelled.

It’s too late now  

Edited August 16, 2019 by adidas

[VelociRapture]

7 hours ago, Smee said:

I have a friend whose husband took her last name too. She had an established writing career under her name and you can’t retrospectively change the author on most publications, but they both wanted to share a surname when they got married. Since they’re not especially traditional and don’t appreciate the notion of “headship” it was a no-brainer for them to just change his name instead.

My sister is Dr Lastname (a postdoctoral researcher, so she doesn’t have students but she still works in academia and publishes scientific papers etc) and in a serious long term relationship that will hopefully include children at some point. She’d like to get married eventually but it’s not a priority right now and when she does, she is unlikely to change her name, at least not in a professional setting. She certainly won’t accept being called Mrs rather than Dr. Hyphenating their surnames would sound/look weird (two occupation-surnames that start with the same letter, think Tanner-Taylor), so they’ll probably give any children his surname. I don’t like that in these situations, the child’s surname is determined by the father rather than the mother, but he’s not interested in taking her surname and hundreds of years of sexist tradition will most likely dictate what happens with their kids. I went hyper-traditional white church wedding and took my husband’s last name when I was 21 before I had a career, so my opinion is somewhat hypocritical, but still...

Hopefully your sister and her partner find a compromise that works for both of them. Or at least one they both don’t hate. I don’t like the idea of anyone being made to use or take a name they don’t want.

 

27 minutes ago, adidas said:

Short story and disclaimer: I took my husband’s surname when we got married. 

.......

Long story: we both agonised over it. For a long time.

I wanted us to all have the same surname. DH didn’t care what that surname was. He offered to change his surname to mine but parental resistance meant we felt uncomfortable with that option. As I’ve posted here before, I was moving out of fundiedom.

We both have long surnames and it was my decision not to give our children a super long double-barrelled surname. His preference was that we hyphenate but I vetoed it. Huge regrets.

His father was dying and asked me if we could please consider not letting their family surname die out. Our kids were the last possible chance. FIL was an only child and Dh’s brother is gay with absolutely no plans of ever having a child. 

So I did it.

I still use my old surname name socially. I answer to either and people call me by both. Legally and professionally I use his surname. Our kids just have his. We intended for my old surname to be their middle name but an emotional decision due to another family death meant that a different middle name was used in its place.

So his family name lives on through my kids. And now it’s up to my brother to carry on our family surname. His kids are the last possible chance. I feel really guilty about it.  

I wish we’d double barrelled.

It’s too late now  

Could you change their last names? I know it can be time consuming (and potentially expensive?), but if it means that much to you and your kids are too young to have an opinion then it might be a good idea since it’d give you peace of mind.

[adidas]

Just now, VelociRapture said:

Hopefully your sister and her partner find a compromise that works for both of them. Or at least one they both don’t hate. I don’t like the idea of anyone being made to use or take a name they don’t want.

 

Could you change their last names? I know it can be time consuming (and potentially expensive?), but if it means that much to you and your kids are too young to have an opinion then it might be a good idea since it’d give you peace of mind.

My kids are 19 and 22 years old. It’s too late and is a long lasting guilt. 

[CarrotCake]

1 hour ago, adidas said:

So his family name lives on through my kids. And now it’s up to my brother to carry on our family surname. His kids are the last possible chance. I feel really guilty about it.  

This is my problem too but I am the last possible chance.

My fiance is quite traditional when it comes to this and also has a quite uncommon last name so he really wants to use his for our future children. And I actually also really wants to give it to him. But my last name is not just uncommon, I am literally one of the 4 people of my generation with this name: my sister and I and two second cousins that I don't know. My sister had her first last year and since her husband does not have the best relationship with his fathers side I was hoping they decided on our last name.

Unfortunately they did not and now I feel super guilty that I probably will choose not to use ours as well and our name will die.

[lumpentheologie]

I don't really understand why it's important to some people that their last name is used by their descendants.  I guess maybe because I've never really identified strongly as a "Smith" or as part of the "Smith family." (Just an example name, to be clear.)  Maybe because I grew up much closer to my mother's side of the family than my father's, but also I've been getting really into genealogy lately and I find how people trace "the Smith family" through hundreds of years and many generations so off-putting.  Inevitably it means discounting the women in the family and focusing solely on the direct male line. If you go back even 7 generations, only a tiny percentage of your ancestors had your last name (1 out of 128 of your 5th-great-grandparents). The whole idea of "the Smith family" is basically a patriarchal cultural myth, since every individual is their own node in a network of familial relationships, not part of "a family" that exists separately from other "families." 

I guess it just irks me that it seems so common to think that family = same name, when the relationship between those two things is so arbitrary and patriarchal.