RC Sproul Jr.'s Wife Very Sick

[tehgoobster]

Darby, I am very sorry to read that your mom is ill. I can't imagine how tough that must be for you and your family. :( You and your family definitely have my sympathy.

[Guest Anonymous]

Do you people have no limits? You talk on and on about how you don't appreciate these lifestyles because the children and women are supposedly treated poorly.

Well, I can tell you one thing, every person remotely connected to the QF movement has reached out to my family with sympathy, love, and prayers. What have you offered? Snarky (appropriate to the board) comments about who my father might remarry. Greatly appreciated, I assure you. If you're trying to win converts, this is not the way to do it.

~Darby M. Sproul

Darby where do I begin. You came into someone else's 'house' and now you want to control the actions and behaviors of those that reside in this 'house'. It ain't gonna work. There are house rules here, we're not going to give them up for you. Not that you read them prior to registering.

As to your fathers remarriage, I threw that stone first. Your father is a supporter of a belief system that makes women less than and subject to his rule. His belief system also makes a woman a baby machine, and when your mother dies he's gonna need a keeper of the kids and he will still be required to keep that old quiver full and thoughtlessly reproduce. Thats gonna require a new uterus. I call this connecting the dots Darby.

I really think at this stressful time in your life you would have better things to do then spy on a bunch of snarkers so you could flounce. But hey go for it if it feels good. Just don't make idols of us, we're mere mortal men and women who see through the sham of the QF.

[Witsec5]

My friend's dad remarried within a year and he wasn't a fundie. His adult children were really upset at how quickly their father rebounded. So I can't blame a daughter (fundie or not) for being upset at the very idea especially when the mother and wife are still alive, even if she passes and some of our predictions turn out to be true. Maybe Mrs. Sproul (sorry I don't know her first name) is terminally ill and the daughter or family cannot face it right now and are holding out all hope. Then the discussion of remarriage hurts even more. When I had active cancer (and mine is terminal BTW) I didn't like it when people treated me as if I were already dead.

As a group quiverful women aren't valued I agree but as a motherless daughter none of that matters right now.

[MamaJunebug]

I believe Mrs. Sproul's name is Denise, for those who want to make their prayers and energies more personal.

Remembering back to when we knew that Big Mama JB was dying...it's a terrible time. And I was 40. If my math is correct, Miss Darby is 18, tops. I have to give her credit for posting here as herself, and I have to overlook the futility of her anger at FJ-snark. Emotions are running rampant and lower than low.

[punkiepie]

My friend's dad remarried within a year and he wasn't a fundie. His adult children were really upset at how quickly their father rebounded. So I can't blame a daughter (fundie or not) for being upset at the very idea especially when the mother and wife are still alive, even if she passes and some of our predictions turn out to be true. Maybe Mrs. Sproul (sorry I don't know her first name) is terminally ill and the daughter or family cannot face it right now and are holding out all hope. Then the discussion of remarriage hurts even more. When I had active cancer (and mine is terminal BTW) I didn't like it when people treated me as if I were already dead.

As a group quiverful women aren't valued I agree but as a motherless daughter none of that matters right now.

I think that was very well put and I'm very sorry about your cancer. My dad has an incurable form of cancer, so I know how that feels as his daughter.

[Beeks]

I believe Mrs. Sproul's name is Denise, for those who want to make their prayers and energies more personal.

Remembering back to when we knew that Big Mama JB was dying...it's a terrible time. And I was 40. If my math is correct, Miss Darby is 18, tops. I have to give her credit for posting here as herself, and I have to overlook the futility of her anger at FJ-snark. Emotions are running rampant and lower than low.

I agree. She was calm and graceful in her reply. I don't know or follow the family so I wasn't really checking this thread, but Darby if you are still reading I am saying a prayer for your mom and family right now. I'm sorry you're all going through this.

[Sinister Rouge]

I'm also genuinely sorry, Darby, for what your family is going through. I wish you all nothing but peace and love.

[Vex]

Do you people have no limits? You talk on and on about how you don't appreciate these lifestyles because the children and women are supposedly treated poorly.

Well, I can tell you one thing, every person remotely connected to the QF movement has reached out to my family with sympathy, love, and prayers. What have you offered? Snarky (appropriate to the board) comments about who my father might remarry. Greatly appreciated, I assure you. If you're trying to win converts, this is not the way to do it.

~Darby M. Sproul

Darby: Nobody here is trying to win people over to their point of view. We are a very wide range of people with wildly ranging beliefs. There is no hive mind here, no one point of view. It seems to be a common misconception that we're all feminist atheists who hate religion and want to 'free' everyone who believes in something from their convictions.

I have no doubt that the community has come together to help you through, because most decent people (no matter what their beliefs) would do the exact same thing. I'm glad that your family has so much support.

Anyway, on to what I originally came to post:

This is incredibly sad news. My mother had breast cancer and I know how it feels to watch helplessly as your mother fights against a horrible disease and its equally horrible treatments. I am so sorry for the family's pain, and while I hope that she improves and pulls through, if she does not I hope that her family find the strength to carry on and are comforted by their faith.

[formergothardite]

Do you people have no limits? You talk on and on about how you don't appreciate these lifestyles because the children and women are supposedly treated poorly.

Well, I can tell you one thing, every person remotely connected to the QF movement has reached out to my family with sympathy, love, and prayers. What have you offered? Snarky (appropriate to the board) comments about who my father might remarry. Greatly appreciated, I assure you. If you're trying to win converts, this is not the way to do it.

~Darby M. Sproul

I really am sorry about your mother. I know it had to be hard to read this. BUT I would like to point out that the only reason all these QF families are helping you is because your family believes just like they do. If your mother was a pagan, lesbian single mom would the outpouring of love be the exact same? I hardly think so. The QF lifestyle treats all women poorly, but especially those who don't fit into the tiny mold men created for them.

[treemom]

I really am sorry about your mother. I know it had to be hard to read this. BUT I would like to point out that the only reason all these QF families are helping you is because your family believes just like they do. If your mother was a pagan, lesbian single mom would the outpouring of love be the exact same? I hardly think so. The QF lifestyle treats all women poorly, but especially those who don't fit into the tiny mold men created for them.

+1

And Darby the difference is my heathen self has compassion and support for people who are not like me. Even people I disagree with. I assure you if I were in your community I would be helping financially and with meals, because I actually really do believe in the sanctity of life. But the snarking here was relatively mild to be honest.

And yes, I am very sorry for what your family is experiencing. I don't pray because I don't believe in an a god that acts or moves in this world, but I hope things improve.

[LilMissMetaphor]

From Dougie's blog, 2004:

Ten-year-old Darby Sproul gets an A+. When I turned to her during dinner and asked: “Well Darby, what have you been reading lately?†she replied: “I read Elsie Dinsmore, Mr. Phillips. Elsie is one of my favorites.†To which her daddy quietly said: “Good answer, Honey.â€

I was reading Clan of the Cave Bear when I was ten, I wonder if that would have been a bad answer?

[Boltingmadonna]

I was interested to read the post on the Bayly blog. Apparently the Bayly brothers come from a background of suffering themselves. They lost siblings to genetic illness--hemophilia, cystic fibrosis--and they were poor because their father worked for the church and didn't get paid enough to support his family. I felt sorry for them when I read about their past. Obviously, they suffered major trauma as little boys.

Unfortunately, their reaction to that has been to build up a theology that is cruel and abusive of other people. Even in that post, I could see them asserting their superiority to others--they suffer in a special way that is godly! Millions of other people suffered just as tragically, or even more so--but their suffering doesn't count because they aren't saved like the Baylys. Godly Christian suffering is superior. That just sets my teeth on edge.

Now that I know about their past, I can see them in my mind's eye as mentally still children. They are like little boys swaggering and bragging, vainly trying to make themselves feel better about the wound they have suffered. Why didn't God provide for them? Why didn't God save their brothers and parents from so much grief? They can't ask those questions, so they've embraced God as the abuser, and identified themselves with the punishing ways of the Calvinist God.

As individuals, I pity them, and wish they'd had the help they needed to heal. But as proponents of a whole abusive system, I can't excuse them. I have to oppose their actions and their preaching when they try to impose their broken worldview on others, and pass the suffering on.

[Austin]

I read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee in fifth grade and the book report nearly got me kicked out of Christian school Too anti-American. lol

I'm thinking daddy Sproul would not have been pleased.

[Austin]

I was interested to read the post on the Bayly blog. Apparently the Bayly brothers come from a background of suffering themselves. They lost siblings to genetic illness--hemophilia, cystic fibrosis--and they were poor because their father worked for the church and didn't get paid enough to support his family. I felt sorry for them when I read about their past. Obviously, they suffered major trauma as little boys.

Unfortunately, their reaction to that has been to build up a theology that is cruel and abusive of other people. Even in that post, I could see them asserting their superiority to others--they suffer in a special way that is godly! Millions of other people suffered just as tragically, or even more so--but their suffering doesn't count because they aren't saved like the Baylys. Godly Christian suffering is superior. That just sets my teeth on edge.

Now that I know about their past, I can see them in my mind's eye as mentally still children. They are like little boys swaggering and bragging, vainly trying to make themselves feel better about the wound they have suffered. Why didn't God provide for them? Why didn't God save their brothers and parents from so much grief? They can't ask those questions, so they've embraced God as the abuser, and identified themselves with the punishing ways of the Calvinist God.

As individuals, I pity them, and wish they'd had the help they needed to heal. But as proponents of a whole abusive system, I can't excuse them. I have to oppose their actions and their preaching when they try to impose their broken worldview on others, and pass the suffering on.

I agree that the Brothers Bayly are very pathetic, although in their own minds they are the speshulest of speshul snowflakes. I wonder what happened specifically to make them hate women so much.

[Boltingmadonna]

Separate comment for separate train of thought--this news about R.C. Sproul's wife brought up sad memories. I was once a member of a cult-like Christian group. At some point after I'd been thrown out, my best friend, who was still in, begged me--literally, begged me, with tears--to visit a dear friend of hers who was dying of cancer. I'll call this friend Mary. She had persistently voiced criticisms of the group leadership, basing her criticism on prayer and scripture, and had been shunned by them as a result. That woman was a Christian if anyone in this world ever was. Yet she was treated like a leper, with the leadership spreading rumors to everyone that she was mentally ill and "had problems." Her husband divorced her after she had cancer. The leadership supported him rather than her, even though he'd been having an affair. When I went to see her, she was dying in ICU. Alone. Her former brothers and sisters didn't care about her any more because she was a problem.

So it kind of hurts to hear Mrs. Spoul's daughter say that the QF movement has been so wonderfully supportive. My heart aches for Darby and her family. I'm sure they love their mother, and I wish all the support in the world for them. But that kind of support is available because they are poster children for the movement. Unlike the love Jesus preached about, it's highly conditional, and it's not available to everyone. Cause a "problem," and you're done. You can die in the gutter as far as they're concerned. It's very disillusioning to see Christians behave that way. I'm pretty sure R.C. Jr. has in fact turned his back on people pretty much the way my group turned their backs on me, and on Mary.

[hoipolloi]

Well said, Boltingmadonna.

Re: 5th grade books. I think it was 5th or 6th grade when I read Mark Twain's Letters from the Earth, which is probably not on the Phillips/Sproul list of approved reading for young ladies.

Come to think of it, it's probably not on the reading list for old ladies, either! :roll:

[Brainsample]

Patriarchy has not been charitable to women like me, and unlike treemom who just posted, I am a devout Christian and would do anything I believed that God asked of me, with His help. Women like me have been asked to crawl alive and abandon their lives on the altars of these traditions of men, promising many things which women believed they would gain. Most of those who offered what they presented as sage advice (and to make a buck) has been untested and unproven. Many have broken lives, hearts, souls and bodies because of patriarchy. (Patriarchy royalty lives much better than most of the followers, and suffering for the cause does not pay bills.)

RC, Sr. talks of following an idea to its logical conclusion, and the logical conclusion of patriarchy is ultimately procreation as an end unto itself. Secondary to that, women are put at risk and are the link that holds this process together. I found myself thinking last night of the times I've wept for Denise, and only one of those times was when she was battling breast cancer. The other was when I read that RC [Jr.] considered her "barren" after bearing five or six of his children. Barren. He called his wife barren. It caught me at a bad time when I read it, and I wept, not really understanding (partly denying) at that point how deeply RC embraced patriarchy.

I didn't see that earlier comment in this thread as aimed at wishing for or reveling in the suffering of the Sproul family but as a comment about the hard, cold, and cruel idol that patriarchy makes out of bearing children. It was a real-life application of the principles that RC [Jr.] has taught and encouraged -- it was a working out those principles to their logical conclusion, just as his father teaches Believers to do. Though I would heartily agree that intimacy brings fruitfulness, marriage is seen as a tool of dominion within patriarchy, part of which is actually a concept consistent with social Darwinism. And I saw that comment as an expression of the sadness and anger for the Botkin daughters and all those like them who are objectified, a means to an end which pits husband against wife. I saw it as an expression of pain at what patriarchy teaches and does, an ideology that calls women to die in ways that I believe that God does not, at least in the terms that RC's patriarchy has prescribed.

It is a hard thing, because RC helped to build the great altar of patriarchy. In response to social ills, RC helped to overreact to those problems and overemphasized good principles in Christianity, but in so doing, the lack of balance and too much zeal turned the Christian faith into what is so much like a fertility cult. Though the timing of that sarcastic comment was not ideal, in a less direct sense, RC created the milieu that prompts us to consider the logical end of his belief system. RC pushes us to ask these types of questions. I don't doubt for a minute that he loves his family, but if marriage is about procreation and dominion as an outward sign of faith, then a comment along those lines was legitimate. How do you go on procreating and taking dominion through childbirth if you do not have a wife, and you consider the mother of your many children to be barren? What do you do if you're in your early 50s and could still father some children, believe God demands that you have more, and you find yourself with a house full of kids and a very ill wife? The situation reveals what our idols really are.

For me, I pray that it will be a challenging time for RC. I pray that Denise lives and fully recovers, and that will give RC a grand opportunity to shift his perspective a bit. Perhaps taking dominion through procreation and parenting will become much less important to him? That is my highest prayer for him. I don't want to see him walk into eternity without a great opportunity and a life changing experience so that he can make things right in this life. Pray for him. In certain respects, I'm more concerned for him than I am for Denise. May they all be made whole, in body and in soul. The best outcome would be that these struggles would convict RC to see beyond the box he has built for God and man, causing him to repent and forsake the idolatry he's sought and built.

[Brainsample]

As individuals, I pity them, and wish they'd had the help they needed to heal. But as proponents of a whole abusive system, I can't excuse them. I have to oppose their actions and their preaching when they try to impose their broken worldview on others, and pass the suffering on.

I don't think that it's appropriate to excuse what they've taught. Men like RC have been arrogant, cruel and abusive to followers and has bent and broken many rules. He has sought after power in many ways, and he has not been wholesome in the way that he's pursued power. It was bad enough that he was defrocked, and I believe that there is still much that has not been uncovered about how RC has pursued power.

What bothers me in retrospect concerns how these young men saw a way to make a living and acquire power and capitalized on it. While young and without having even followed their own ideas to the point that they were able to successfully raise a child into adulthood, these men sold a paradigm that promised more than it can deliver. When it doesn't work out the way they like, they scapegoat women, and sometimes they scapegoat their children.

I agree. I can't excuse them, either.

[Brainsample]

Separate comment for separate train of thought--this news about R.C. Sproul's wife brought up sad memories. I was once a member of a cult-like Christian group. At some point after I'd been thrown out, my best friend, who was still in, begged me--literally, begged me, with tears--to visit a dear friend of hers who was dying of cancer. I'll call this friend Mary. She had persistently voiced criticisms of the group leadership, basing her criticism on prayer and scripture, and had been shunned by them as a result. That woman was a Christian if anyone in this world ever was. Yet she was treated like a leper, with the leadership spreading rumors to everyone that she was mentally ill and "had problems." Her husband divorced her after she had cancer. The leadership supported him rather than her, even though he'd been having an affair. When I went to see her, she was dying in ICU. Alone. Her former brothers and sisters didn't care about her any more because she was a problem.

So it kind of hurts to hear Mrs. Spoul's daughter say that the QF movement has been so wonderfully supportive. My heart aches for Darby and her family. I'm sure they love their mother, and I wish all the support in the world for them. But that kind of support is available because they are poster children for the movement. Unlike the love Jesus preached about, it's highly conditional, and it's not available to everyone. Cause a "problem," and you're done. You can die in the gutter as far as they're concerned. It's very disillusioning to see Christians behave that way. I'm pretty sure R.C. Jr. has in fact turned his back on people pretty much the way my group turned their backs on me, and on Mary.

But patriarchal royalty and leadership don't live by their own rules. They are the not the struggling proletariat. They are royalty and enjoy privileges and benefits that 95% of those who follow their ideology do not. NONE of these people in patriarchal leadership are poor, and there are those who would say that they acquired their wealth in ways that were not Christian. RC was thrown out of the RPCGA, partially based on charges that he used someone else's tax ID number.

Darby does not represent the typical example of a young woman from the average patriarchal home. She has benefits that most don't have. RC has enjoyed them too, as he did not grow up as a nobody and did not come from nothing. That is what frustrates me so much about him -- he lives in a way that is far beneath what I expected of him because of who his father is and what I've learned from his father's teachings. But isn't that how things often go?

[debrand]

Big hugs to the posters who have suffered under this system. I would love it if Darby would return and at least read some of the comment to her.

[theologygeek]

Do you people have no limits? You talk on and on about how you don't appreciate these lifestyles because the children and women are supposedly treated poorly.

Well, I can tell you one thing, every person remotely connected to the QF movement has reached out to my family with sympathy, love, and prayers. What have you offered? Snarky (appropriate to the board) comments about who my father might remarry. Greatly appreciated, I assure you. If you're trying to win converts, this is not the way to do it.

~Darby M. Sproul

Listen Miss Pissy And Moany. I never heard of your family and don't have the slightest idea who they are. But I will tell you this. The people here, Christians and non Christians alike, follow more of Jesus' teachings than fundies do. When you hug a prostitute and tell her that you'll always be there for her, go visit a prison, go out in the dead of winter to feed the homeless, treat gays with respect, babysit a single mother's kids and give her money when she needs it, then come back and we'll talk. How many in the QF movement do those things? Only God knows who fundies worship, because it sure isn't Jesus. Fundies do the total opposite of what He commanded people to do. If your parents left the QF movement, became pagans and became destitute, who would help them? The people on FJ would before your QF friends would.

[Want More Babies]

http://hushmoney.org/RC_Sproul_Jr-defrocking-docs.htm

Here is part of the RC Jr. defrocking papers.

[mirele]

http://hushmoney.org/RC_Sproul_Jr-defrocking-docs.htm

Here is part of the RC Jr. defrocking papers.

You got there first...I was going to say that I hope Darby doesn't Google her father because of the scandal surrounding him. :(

[debrand]

You got there first...I was going to say that I hope Darby doesn't Google her father because of the scandal surrounding him. :(

A major factor in the decision to defrock R.C. Sproul, Jr. is that he did knowingly abscond with and use for banking and merchant credit card purposes the Tax Identification Number (TIN/EIN) of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARP

Does this mean that he used the church's credit card for his private use?

Can we start another thread on this issue. Some of the material on that site is interesting.

[Kitten]

MamaJunebug said:

...God is not pleased with us, at all. God hates sin, and we're sinners. But! God is merciful to us because Jesus Christ lived, died and rose again to pay for our sins.

Oh, I understand the philosophy. I just think it's a sad way to go through life, thinking your God hates you and is disgusted with you, but deigns to let you carry on because of his son's sacrifice. And plodding through life feeling bad about yourself all the time, and just waiting for your "reward" after death seems dismal.

To me, hardship in life, be it illness, poverty, pain, abuse, whatever, is...hardship. It happens. Some of us are bent and broken by it, some of us are transformed by it--because we are all individuals, with different strengths and weaknesses. Hardship touches everyone equally, with no regard to religion or creed. I can't say why some "bad" people seem to sail through life with scarcely a worry, while some "good" people seem to face one heart-rending obstacle after the other. But the opposite happens as well--some bad people have terrible things happen to them, and some good people live glorious lives.

I'd rather spend my life in joy, trying to be the best person I can be, regardless of what happens, for good or for bad, and let "God" decide what to do with me afterwards. Who knows, maybe he grades on the curve... :D