Seewalds 41: Christian Hero Ivy Jane

[JordynDarby5]

9 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I don’t think it excuses her. As the husband and the King, however, Henry held power that none of the women in his life could match. He was the one married to Katherine, not Anne, and he was the one who had the power to destroy the family of a woman who might have dared to reject him outright without making it a courtly game. There’s also the fact that, while Anne certainly seemed to know what she was doing, she was also viewed as little more than a pawn to advance her family by her male relatives - she might have taken it further than they intended at first, but she probably wouldn’t have even started the pursuit if they didn’t push her to do so. Therefore, I do think Henry is the one who should be given the majority of the blame, not Anne. 

I think it’s easy to see why he turned out that way to an extent. He went from the pampered and somewhat spoiled second son who didn’t have any real responsibility to suddenly being the heir apparent after his brother died. This wasn’t a job he was trained for from birth the way Arthur was, not was it a job he had to fight tooth and jail for as his father did. I don’t think he had an easy childhood - the deaths of his brother, mother, and youngest sister must have been very difficult, as was the isolation he experienced by his father after becoming the heir - but suddenly having all that power at the young age of 17 or 18 when he wasn’t fully prepared for it likely played a big role in how massive his ego became. 

 

Yes. Head injuries are no joke. I find it very likely that his jousting accident played a significant role in the change, even if it was just the fact that it caused him to confront his own very real mortality - he strikes me as the type of person who wouldn’t have done well with that. Katherine, on the other hand, always strikes me as the type of person who would have handled confronting her mortality well. 

 

3 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

No, she didn't really have too much of a choice. She could be his mistress and end up like her sister. Saying no only made him pursue her more.  I highly doubt Anne set out to get Henry, just as I doubt any of the other wives afterwards did. He should take the majority of the blame. 

Oh definitely, Henry deserves bulk of the blame. He was the King and man who could do anything he wanted. When his eye fell on a woman her family pushed her forward to reap the rewards from the affair. The woman usually ended up tossed aside. Quietly married off or already married to someone who ignored or didn't care that his kids weren't his. Anne and/or her family aimed higher and played her role to hold out for Queen. None of that worked without Henry's consent. He wanted her and possible heirs, he tried to force Katherine into a divorce, Katherine for the first time ever balked and refused to go or back down. Then when he went to get rid of Anne. He didn't have to kill her. He could have banished her. He chose to behead her. He came up with that stupid excuse that his marriage to Katherine wasn't real due to her being married to his brother. But of course it didn't matter that he once had been with Anne's sister and father at least one of her children. He was already with Jane while married to Anne and married her quickly after Anne's execution. He chose a teenage Katherine to marry because of lust. Katherine was beheaded for adultery. The fact she was so young, her past was known to her family and she didn't really have anyone looking out for her best interest didn't matter. Even his marriage to Katherine Parr. Katherine wanted someone else but she had to marry Henry. She was smart, well educated, and pretty much everything Aragon was. But she wasn't safe either. She was almost arrested too because she voiced her opinions and God forbid Henry have anyone around him who might dare tell him he's wrong. She had to lie and feed him some crap to get off the chopping block. 

I do think VelociRaptor is right. Henry had been spoiled second son and none of the responsibilities. Also everything seemed to go his way for so long. He married Katherine of Aragon, he fought battles that won, he was praised by the Pope getting that Defender of the Faith thing, money, beautiful mistresses all which fed his ego. He and Katherine seemed to fancy each other. He believed all his hype.  Then things started not going his way. His heir died as a baby, followed by many more stillbirths, and miscarriages. That seems to be when things changed. Or the not so nice Henry emerged. It was probably always there but not seen while things were going good.

17 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I think Jane was a smarter cookie than we give her credit for. She played the same game as Anne but she knew just how far she could go and what would appeal to him. She played him just like Anne did.

He had one wife who adored him, Katherine of Aragon. How sad. 

Oh she definitely was smarter then we give her credit for. She played her role very well and it got her Queen. And yes Katherine of Aragon really was the only wife who adored him. 

[Plum78]

Loving this thread drift! I’ve always been fascinated by Anne Boleyn & have loads of books about her, fact & fiction. 

I’ve just read a book called The Catherine Howard Conspiracy. It’s a bit bonkers, but an enjoyable read!

I took my daughter to see Six The Musical a few weeks ago, it’s a rock musical about the six wives. It’s amazing. If you get a chance to see it, definitely go! It’s in London & about to go on a UK tour. 

[JordynDarby5]

25 minutes ago, Granwych said:

I liked reading about Christina of Denmark.  Considered by Henry as a possible bride, she had the spunk to refuse due to her not having a spare head to lose.

 

20 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I think a lot of women were not exactly happy to get the king's attention! 

Christina was awesome! I'm sure there were a lot women not happy to get his attention. Katherine Parr wasn't exactly interested and neither was Katherine Howard, among the royals there wasn't exactly a mad dash to Henry's door when he was looking for wife #4.  Royal Kings and Princes weren't exactly in a hurry to put forth their daughters or sisters either. Henry seemed to be the only one surprised by that. I hate to be the poor ambassador having to try and "sell" Henry as a good candidate for husband/alliance. How would you even keep a straight face. "Yes, sure, he divorced, discarded and treated #1, beheaded #2, and #3 died in childbirth, but he really is a great catch!" 

[tabitha2]

Henry also really wanted Mary of Hungary and she did not want anything to do with him or his baby mama drama. He kept on pursuing a marriage till one of his advisors basically said you need to drop it dude and move on("fyxe his most noble stomacke in some such other place.")

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by tabitha2

[anjulibai]

I always thought Anne of Cleves would have been a good queen for Henry. She was a smart, practical woman, she was adapted well to English culture, and the people liked her. She was obedient, too, and wouldn't have made any sort of real political or religious fuss for him. 

Too bad Henry was too full of himself to get over her initial shock at meeting him when she didn't even know it was him. 

[tabitha2]

She was very provincial though. She was taught to cook and weave at her fathers small court not to flirt and be sophisticated and be erudite like English court ladies. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

I hadn't realized until recently how genuinely close Anne of Cleves and Mary I were. I have come to have much more sympathy for Mary I losing her mother so young and then being separated from a seeming loving maternal figure in Anne of Cleves. (None of which excuses her later horrible behavior. I just feel more sympathy for her and don't feel she was born a monster.) Anne of Cleves carried Mary's train during her coronation and later converted to Catholicism. She would remain one of Henry's more beloved wives. I also think Katherine was the only wife who truly loved Henry, and she was probably the only wife he really loved. His passion for Anne was a combination of playing hard to get, her charisma and charm, and longing for a male heir. Passion isn't the same as love.  

[Kaylo]

Anne of Cleves - or more likely her advisors - was by far the smartest of the bunch. She took her deal quickly and without argument and was treated as the king’s sister the rest of her life.

[Greendoor]

On 6/4/2019 at 9:31 AM, Boogers said:

Ben's comment about holding her for the first time and suddenly envisioning walking her down the aisle struck me as odd.

As I consider it, what other father/daughter moments could they look forward to? I know in fundie circles girls are raised to keep their future husbands in mind, but is getting his daughter hitched really the first thing he thought of when she was JUST BORN? 

Also, Jessa added "in 20 years..." when he said that. Found that bit interesting too - not 18, 20.

At least it wasn't a  Purity Ring Ceremony.

 

[JordynDarby5]

1 hour ago, Kaylo said:

Anne of Cleves - or more likely her advisors - was by far the smartest of the bunch. She took her deal quickly and without argument and was treated as the king’s sister the rest of her life.

She or the advisor definitely was. She kept her head, got a nice settlement and I believe two castles, and yes still treated like a member of the family. All three of Henry's children really liked her and she liked them. She ended up with a nice sum of money. 

[JordynDarby5]

3 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I hadn't realized until recently how genuinely close Anne of Cleves and Mary I were. I have come to have much more sympathy for Mary I losing her mother so young and then being separated from a seeming loving maternal figure in Anne of Cleves. (None of which excuses her later horrible behavior. I just feel more sympathy for her and don't feel she was born a monster.) Anne of Cleves carried Mary's train during her coronation and later converted to Catholicism. She would remain one of Henry's more beloved wives. I also think Katherine was the only wife who truly loved Henry, and she was probably the only wife he really loved. His passion for Anne was a combination of playing hard to get, her charisma and charm, and longing for a male heir. Passion isn't the same as love.  

I've come to have more sympathy for Mary I too. None of it excuses her behavior later. But she had it pretty good until Henry decided to divorce her mother. She was ripped away from her mother never allowed to see her, her father treated her like crap while he treated her mother like crap to force a divorce, she went from Princess to declared illegitimate and part of Elizabeth's household, Henry forced her sign a document acknowledging herself as a bastard and her parents' marriage unlawful. Mary resisted as long as she could but finally did, and remaining Catholic. Its obvious when she came to throne she wanted to put things back the way they were before Anne and marry a Spanish prince from her mother's family. But she couldn't and wouldn't accept that things couldn't go back the way they were. Too much time had passed. Her marriage was unpopular and a failure. Philip really was a crappy husband probably because he had zero power as King and also England really wasn't that important to him since had so many other lands. Then going through the embarrassment of 2 false pregnancies.

The persecutions of the Protestants was horrible. Burning 300 alive and most regular people or tradesmen. Imprisoning Elizabeth for 2 months in the Tower. Elizabeth really did think she was going to die. 

Although one thing books and movies do get wrong is Mary and Elizabeth didn't hate each other nor were rivals while Elizabeth was growing up. That came later. 

[JordynDarby5]

6 hours ago, anjulibai said:

I always thought Anne of Cleves would have been a good queen for Henry. She was a smart, practical woman, she was adapted well to English culture, and the people liked her. She was obedient, too, and wouldn't have made any sort of real political or religious fuss for him. 

Too bad Henry was too full of himself to get over her initial shock at meeting him when she didn't even know it was him. 

Yes, so Anne wasn't the pretty princess from the painting or whatever his problem was. It was an arrange marriage. Every other royal had no choice but to accept their royal marriages, find ways to make it work or ignore each other. The list is short on those who actually got what they wanted. Nope, not Henry.   

[Angelface]

3 hours ago, JordynDarby5 said:

Yes, so Anne wasn't the pretty princess from the painting or whatever his problem was. It was an arrange marriage. Every other royal had no choice but to accept their royal marriages, find ways to make it work or ignore each other. The list is short on those who actually got what they wanted. Nope, not Henry.   

Henry’s attitude to this arranged marriage is hypocritical to say the least especially since he forced his beautiful 18 year old sister to marry the 52 year old Louis xii of France. Princess Mary did manage to wring a concession from her brother: after Louis died she was free to marry whoever she wanted. Not placing too much trust in Henry’s promise (wise girl) she married Charles Brandon upon Louis’ sudden death without waiting for approval from Henry. Henry was not pleased as he had wanted to use her as a political pawn as was the usual fate of sixteenth century princesses. 

[VelociRapture]

11 hours ago, JordynDarby5 said:

I've come to have more sympathy for Mary I too. None of it excuses her behavior later. But she had it pretty good until Henry decided to divorce her mother. She was ripped away from her mother never allowed to see her, her father treated her like crap while he treated her mother like crap to force a divorce, she went from Princess to declared illegitimate and part of Elizabeth's household, Henry forced her sign a document acknowledging herself as a bastard and her parents' marriage unlawful. Mary resisted as long as she could but finally did, and remaining Catholic. Its obvious when she came to throne she wanted to put things back the way they were before Anne and marry a Spanish prince from her mother's family. But she couldn't and wouldn't accept that things couldn't go back the way they were. Too much time had passed. Her marriage was unpopular and a failure. Philip really was a crappy husband probably because he had zero power as King and also England really wasn't that important to him since had so many other lands. Then going through the embarrassment of 2 false pregnancies.

The persecutions of the Protestants was horrible. Burning 300 alive and most regular people or tradesmen. Imprisoning Elizabeth for 2 months in the Tower. Elizabeth really did think she was going to die. 

Although one thing books and movies do get wrong is Mary and Elizabeth didn't hate each other nor were rivals while Elizabeth was growing up. That came later. 

Mary I was actually my introduction to the Tudors. My grandparents gave me a book titled, “Mary, Bloody Mary,” one year. It only covered her life up to the point where Henry has married Jane Seymour, but it was really sad and interesting to read. She went from her father’s beloved pearl of the world to the target of his wrath and terror. Losing her mother was difficult enough, but losing what appears to have been the genuinely loving relationship she once enjoyed with her father can’t have been easy either. 

And yes, Mary appears to have been extremely close to Elizabeth when she was younger. I think she viewed Elizabeth almost as the child she never had the chance to have herself. And Elizabeth appears to have adored Mary right back as well. The loss of that relationship is one of the things I find saddest about the Tudor era. It can’t have been easy for either of them to lose one another the way they did or be pitted against each other because of the throne. I think it’s unfortunate that history has kind of continued this putting if them against one another with Elizabeth being popularly viewed as a Saint and Mary being cast as the Devil. Neither of them were perfect and both of them did things we’d consider horrible or wrong today, though Mary managed to do some pretty horrible things in considerably less time than Elizabeth. 

7 hours ago, Angelface said:

Henry’s attitude to this arranged marriage is hypocritical to say the least especially since he forced his beautiful 18 year old sister to marry the 52 year old Louis xii of France. Princess Mary did manage to wring a concession from her brother: after Louis died she was free to marry whoever she wanted. Not placing too much trust in Henry’s promise (wise girl) she married Charles Brandon upon Louis’ sudden death without waiting for approval from Henry. Henry was not pleased as he had wanted to use her as a political pawn as was the usual fate of sixteenth century princesses. 

I kind of always loved Princess Mary for this. I just love that cavalier, “screw all of you,” attitude she showed here. 

[byzant]

I think with Henry he was oviously vicious. Buts it more understandable when you think he was literally one generation away from civil war, his father could be viewed as a usurper whose wife's family were the true line of power and he knew the danger of lack of sons; his father had two health adult sons but he still ended up king after his adult brother died. He and Catherine had several sons born apparently healthy who still died as did his adult bastard son as well. So even having several healthy male heirs was no guarantee of an clear succession. 

 

So his desprate quest for sons is more expliciable even if his meathods were not. 

[Kayleigh83]

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

Mary I was actually my introduction to the Tudors. My grandparents gave me a book titled, “Mary, Bloody Mary,” one year. 

 I totally forgot about it but I am almost certain I read that book too!  I’ve read a lot of Tudor historical fiction over the years lol! I have read most of Philippa Gregory’s books as much of her work spans that era too. Historical fiction is my favourite genre.

The very first HF book I read that got me into the genre was actually about the daughter of the French royal family who were executed in the revolution, but the second book was about Jane Grey and that got me right down the rabbit hole for the rest of my life! That would have been around 4th or 5th grade.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Kayleigh83
Typo

[JordynDarby5]

2 hours ago, byzant said:

I think with Henry he was oviously vicious. Buts it more understandable when you think he was literally one generation away from civil war, his father could be viewed as a usurper whose wife's family were the true line of power and he knew the danger of lack of sons; his father had two health adult sons but he still ended up king after his adult brother died. He and Catherine had several sons born apparently healthy who still died as did his adult bastard son as well. So even having several healthy male heirs was no guarantee of an clear succession. 

 

So his desprate quest for sons is more expliciable even if his meathods were not. 

To be fair, they were usurpers who's wife's family were the true power and after her and her family there were many other families with a better claim the Tudors.  

11 hours ago, Angelface said:

Henry’s attitude to this arranged marriage is hypocritical to say the least especially since he forced his beautiful 18 year old sister to marry the 52 year old Louis xii of France. Princess Mary did manage to wring a concession from her brother: after Louis died she was free to marry whoever she wanted. Not placing too much trust in Henry’s promise (wise girl) she married Charles Brandon upon Louis’ sudden death without waiting for approval from Henry. Henry was not pleased as he had wanted to use her as a political pawn as was the usual fate of sixteenth century princesses. 

Oh, yes, he was. He also gave his other sister Margaret a big lecture when she decided to divorce husband number 2 in order to marry husband #3. A mere few years before he ended up doing the exact same thing. 

Edited June 8, 2019 by JordynDarby5

[JordynDarby5]

3 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Mary I was actually my introduction to the Tudors. My grandparents gave me a book titled, “Mary, Bloody Mary,” one year. It only covered her life up to the point where Henry has married Jane Seymour, but it was really sad and interesting to read. She went from her father’s beloved pearl of the world to the target of his wrath and terror. Losing her mother was difficult enough, but losing what appears to have been the genuinely loving relationship she once enjoyed with her father can’t have been easy either. 

And yes, Mary appears to have been extremely close to Elizabeth when she was younger. I think she viewed Elizabeth almost as the child she never had the chance to have herself. And Elizabeth appears to have adored Mary right back as well. The loss of that relationship is one of the things I find saddest about the Tudor era. It can’t have been easy for either of them to lose one another the way they did or be pitted against each other because of the throne. I think it’s unfortunate that history has kind of continued this putting if them against one another with Elizabeth being popularly viewed as a Saint and Mary being cast as the Devil. Neither of them were perfect and both of them did things we’d consider horrible or wrong today, though Mary managed to do some pretty horrible things in considerably less time than Elizabeth. 

I kind of always loved Princess Mary for this. I just love that cavalier, “screw all of you,” attitude she showed here. 

Was it a biography or the one by Carolyn Meyer? I read the one by Carolyn Meyer and it was the first time I read about Mary I that wasn't the horrible person that usually pops up in Elizabeth stories. It was fiction which made me curious if it was true or not. I read a few different books on Mary finding out it really was true. She got treated like crap and went through so much and it mostly gets ignored in books and movies. It really does seem like she loved her parents and they both loved her until Henry decided on the divorce and began treating her so badly. It was Jane Seymour and later Katherine Parr who worked hard to try and restore the relationship. It really wasn't Henry's doing. It was those biographies I learned that the two actually did get along for most of Elizabeth's childhood. Its really a shame they ended up losing it. Or that Mary really didn't want to execute Jane and had no plans to do so. She knew Jane Grey's parents and in-laws were behind the coup not her. That's really the thing about Mary and Elizabeth. They both went though so much its clear they were shaped by it. Elizabeth learned from Mary's mistakes. 

[patsymae]

On 6/3/2019 at 4:07 PM, VineHeart137 said:

There's a new video up on the Seewald blog and they talk about how they chose Ivy's name. Jane is apparently after Lady Jane Grey. I don't know much about her so looks like I'll be learning something new today. Ivy was just a name they liked and they thought it sounded good with Jane. They had her name picked before she was born this time around. Of course when talking about things they're going to look forward to with Ivy Jessa's answer is "pink and ruffles" and Ben talks about walking her down the aisle one day (Jessa pipes in with "in 20 years!")

Apparently they think of Lady Jane Grey as a Protestant hero(ine) because she was in fact a devoted Protestant and she was executed by her relative, the Catholic Queen Mary. Lots of agitation between Catholics and Protestants (actually, more complicated, but for purposes of this discussion...( Jane was executed not because of her piety but because of her pretense to the crown of England--and she was mostly, but not completely, a pawn of her severely inept family.
Anyway, if they wanted a female hero of that era, why not Ann Askew, who actually did die a Protestant martyr?
Personally, I think they just liked the name Ivy Jane, which does have a nice ring to it, and then had to come up with something after getting flak.

 

[19tacos&counting]

Jessa is buying kickeepants on amazon. From a quick search they are still $30-40. We have known the days of “buy used save the difference” are long gone but getting boutique brands now. 

[Daisy0322]

26 minutes ago, 19tacos&counting said:

Jessa is buying kickeepants on amazon. From a quick search they are still $30-40. We have known the days of “buy used save the difference” are long gone but getting boutique brands now. 

Hot damn that's an expensive little sleeper! It's cute but good lord I consider over 12$ a lot for a baby outfit. 

[TheMustardCardigan]

Dang. The world of baby clothes is totally foreign to me but that long sleeve onesie seems pretty nondescript to me, any reason why it's more expensive than a normal one?

[QuiverFullofBooks]

I highly recommend the “Queens of Infamy” series on Longreads -https://longreads.com/tag/queens-of-infamy/. There’s one on Anne Boleyn. I think my favorite is the two-part series on Empress Josephine (“French people truly cannot pass up one single opportunity to be extra as hell.”)

[VelociRapture]

5 hours ago, JordynDarby5 said:

Was it a biography or the one by Carolyn Meyer? I read the one by Carolyn Meyer and it was the first time I read about Mary I that wasn't the horrible person that usually pops up in Elizabeth stories. It was fiction which made me curious if it was true or not. I read a few different books on Mary finding out it really was true. She got treated like crap and went through so much and it mostly gets ignored in books and movies. It really does seem like she loved her parents and they both loved her until Henry decided on the divorce and began treating her so badly. It was Jane Seymour and later Katherine Parr who worked hard to try and restore the relationship. It really wasn't Henry's doing. It was those biographies I learned that the two actually did get along for most of Elizabeth's childhood. Its really a shame they ended up losing it. Or that Mary really didn't want to execute Jane and had no plans to do so. She knew Jane Grey's parents and in-laws were behind the coup not her. That's really the thing about Mary and Elizabeth. They both went though so much its clear they were shaped by it. Elizabeth learned from Mary's mistakes. 

Yes! That was the book! I consider myself lucky that that was my introduction to the Tudors because it gave me a more sympathetic lens to view Mary I through that other people don’t seem to have. It seems that a lot of people like to ignore the legitimate traumas she experienced throughout her life in favor of viewing her as a one-dimensional villain. She absolutely deserves criticism fir the horrible things she did as Queen, but she was also a complex person and she wasn’t an evil human being. She didn’t deserve a lot of what she experienced and I don’t think history has been entirely fair to her at times either - but history if written by the winners and the Protestants were triumphant in England after her reign ended. 

[AliceInFundyland]

2 hours ago, TheMustardCardigan said:

Dang. The world of baby clothes is totally foreign to me but that long sleeve onesie seems pretty nondescript to me, any reason why it's more expensive than a normal one?

This.

Earlier today I was commenting to someone (having a garage sale) about how you all have taught me how it's not that hard to find decent or barely used good baby clothes. And really easy for someone of Jessa's thrifting skills.

However. She "did just have a girl" No matter what she says she's not a pink lace type. Perhaps this is her  idea of "new girl mommy" indulgence.