Seewalds 41: Christian Hero Ivy Jane

[CharlieInCharge]

Beautiful work, @Bad Wolf! I got several handmade baby blankets from our local pregnancy center when I was expecting years ago and I kept all of them. We don’t have any grandparents for our little guy, so those meant a lot to me and I still love them. For all you ladies who knit, sew, crochet, etc. for little ones you don’t get to meet, please know it is much appreciated! ❤️

[Anna Bolinas]

God, it would drive me nutty if they started touting Anne Boleyn as some kind of fundie martyr, or if fundies try to romanticize her as some ~doomed Protestant queen~. If my username didn't make it obvious enough lol, I love Anne Boleyn. She is my favorite historical figure. She was religious, yes, and technically Protestant, although she died before the full terms of the Anglican Church were hammered out. But she was so much more complicated than just "religious, doomed queen", and any fundies who would try to claim her in some way would have to contend with the fact that she was well-versed in courtly love and courtly flirtation (outside of courtship and marriage--the horror!), she loved her daughter and took steps to ensure Elizabeth would be well-educated, and she wasn't afraid to stand up against people like Thomas Cromwell when she felt he was not charting the best political course.

Anyway tl;dr: to any fundies out there, keep your hands off Anne Boleyn! And pretty much any well-known female historical figure, considering you actively hinder your daughters from making the same kind of impact on the world!

[Sullie06]

Man I could not imagine having a commute, I'm spoiled, I work literally 5 minutes from my home. I live in Upstate, NY so it's like of a crap shoot here in our county. Some people live in the rural areas of the county and commute for an hour plus, some live in more urban areas of the county and have practically no commute. Were lucky that most of our family lives locally, my sister actually owns my kids daycare so they see their cousins daily. We do have some family on the west coast though and we only see them once a year if lucky. 

[viii]

14 hours ago, Iamtheway said:

We moved to my hometown to be close to my family. We used to have a 4 hour drive but now we have a 10 minute walk. Miniway plays with his cousins every week. Mr Way has a 45 minute commute to work though.

I wanted Miniway to live close to my family since he has the other half of his family on the other side of the world. And this way we can save up our travel time and money for Australia trips. Miniway is 5 and has been there four times. My inlaws has been to Sweden twice. We try to skype but the time difference makes it hard. 

This is so nice. I wish my sisters lived closer to me. It's hard being the long distance auntie (they only live an hour apart from each other and get together regularly) Facetime/Skpe is truly life changing - my nieces and nephew know me because of it, rather than the two-three times a year I get to see them. Thank god for technology! 

8 hours ago, Anna Bolinas said:

she loved her daughter and took steps to ensure Elizabeth would be well-educated

THANK YOU! I am so tired of reading books where Anne resented Elizabeth for being a girl or neglected her because she was obsessed with getting pregnant immediately again. All accounts of history have shown Anne to be a loving mother who adored her daughter.

[Glasgowghirl]

28 minutes ago, Sullie06 said:

Man I could not imagine having a commute, I'm spoiled, I work literally 5 minutes from my home. I live in Upstate, NY so it's like of a crap shoot here in our county. Some people live in the rural areas of the county and commute for an hour plus, some live in more urban areas of the county and have practically no commute. Were lucky that most of our family lives locally, my sister actually owns my kids daycare so they see their cousins daily. We do have some family on the west coast though and we only see them once a year if lucky. 

My bus into Glasgow City Centre takes 45 minutes to an hour and if I'm on late finishes I have to wait up to an hour for a bus, I don't drive yet but even if I did it's crazy expensive to park in Glasgow and it isn't any quicker driving. 

[Sullie06]

9 minutes ago, Glasgowghirl said:

My bus into Glasgow City Centre takes 45 minutes to an hour and if I'm on late finishes I have to wait up to an hour for a bus, I don't drive yet but even if I did it's crazy expensive to park in Glasgow and it isn't any quicker driving. 

I could not imagine. I'm not the most patient person...

[JermajestyDuggar]

40 minutes ago, viii said:

THANK YOU! I am so tired of reading books where Anne resented Elizabeth for being a girl or neglected her because she was obsessed with getting pregnant immediately again. All accounts of history have shown Anne to be a loving mother who adored her daughter.

I’m not Tudor scholar but I’ve always imagined that in a time of so much miscarriage, stillbirth, and high infant mortality, Anne or any other woman would feel as if it were a miracle to have a healthy child no matter the sex.

Edited June 6, 2019 by JermajestyDuggar

[viii]

16 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I’m not Tudor scholar but I’ve always imagined that in a time of so much miscarriage, stillbirth, and high infant mortality, Anne or any other woman would feel as if it were a miracle to have a healthy child no matter the sex.

Exactly. While I'm sure there was some disappointment and fear over having a daughter and not the son that was promised, Anne was already older for childbirth (in their times - not ours), and so I imagine she was quite pleased to have produced a healthy living child on her very first try. 

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, Sullie06 said:

I could not imagine. I'm not the most patient person...

I have been retired for 5 years. Yesterday  I had to attend an afternoon meeting in town forcing me to drive home in the evening commute. OMG, there was no way around the traffic, surface street and the 1 freeway all jammed parking lots. I heard many screeching tires and saw a couple of serious road infractions that I could only chalk up to rage. I do not miss commuting at all.

[JermajestyDuggar]

33 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I have been retired for 5 years. Yesterday  I had to attend an afternoon meeting in town forcing me to drive home in the evening commute. OMG, there was no way around the traffic, surface street and the 1 freeway all jammed parking lots. I heard many screeching tires and saw a couple of serious road infractions that I could only chalk up to rage. I do not miss commuting at all.

When I go back to work one day, I’m positive the commute will play a major part in my choice of job. I would definitely take a lower paying job with less of a commute compared to a higher paying job with a longer commute. I’m just not interested in being completely stressed out twice a day for 5 days a week for years on end. It’s just not worth it.

[VelociRapture]

4 hours ago, viii said:

Exactly. While I'm sure there was some disappointment and fear over having a daughter and not the son that was promised, Anne was already older for childbirth (in their times - not ours), and so I imagine she was quite pleased to have produced a healthy living child on her very first try. 

I can’t remember the source, but I think I recall reading that Anne wanted to breastfeed Elizabeth after she was born, which was pretty much unheard of in noble families during that time period. If that’s accurate then I think the fact that she was willing to try and go against such an established cultural norm says a lot about her attachment to Elizabeth. I don’t remember if she succeeded in getting her way or not though. She was a strong willed and stubborn human being, but so was Henry and he was the one with the penis and the Crown. 

 

4 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I’m not Tudor scholar but I’ve always imagined that in a time of so much miscarriage, stillbirth, and high infant mortality, Anne or any other woman would feel as if it were a miracle to have a healthy child no matter the sex.

I mean, I live in a time and place where many pregnancies end with a healthy mother and child and I’m still blown away by the fact that my daughter is healthy sometimes. I can absolutely see Anne or other Tudor era women seeing a healthy first child as a miracle considering all the risks and odds against it happening. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

18 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I can’t remember the source, but I think I recall reading that Anne wanted to breastfeed Elizabeth after she was born, which was pretty much unheard of in noble families during that time period. If that’s accurate then I think the fact that she was willing to try and go against such an established cultural norm says a lot about her attachment to Elizabeth. I don’t remember if she succeeded in getting her way or not though. She was a strong willed and stubborn human being, but so was Henry and he was the one with the penis and the Crown. 

 

I mean, I live in a time and place where many pregnancies end with a healthy mother and child and I’m still blown away by the fact that my daughter is healthy sometimes. I can absolutely see Anne or other Tudor era women seeing a healthy first child as a miracle considering all the risks and odds against it happening. 

Yes, Henry’s own mother died soon after his sister was stillborn. And then of course his third wife died soon after she gave birth to his only legitimate son and heir. I understand why so many women went into the convent back then. I wouldn’t want to risk dying in childbirth either. 

[lumpentheologie]

10 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I understand why so many women went into the convent back then. I wouldn’t want to risk dying in childbirth either. 

I so would have been in a convent back then if I could have swung it.  It would have been a nice life of meditation, gardening, copying books, seducing other nuns... ?

[libgirl2]

15 hours ago, Anna Bolinas said:

God, it would drive me nutty if they started touting Anne Boleyn as some kind of fundie martyr, or if fundies try to romanticize her as some ~doomed Protestant queen~. If my username didn't make it obvious enough lol, I love Anne Boleyn. She is my favorite historical figure. She was religious, yes, and technically Protestant, although she died before the full terms of the Anglican Church were hammered out. But she was so much more complicated than just "religious, doomed queen", and any fundies who would try to claim her in some way would have to contend with the fact that she was well-versed in courtly love and courtly flirtation (outside of courtship and marriage--the horror!), she loved her daughter and took steps to ensure Elizabeth would be well-educated, and she wasn't afraid to stand up against people like Thomas Cromwell when she felt he was not charting the best political course.

Anyway tl;dr: to any fundies out there, keep your hands off Anne Boleyn! And pretty much any well-known female historical figure, considering you actively hinder your daughters from making the same kind of impact on the world!

They had better leave Elizabeth alone too! Seriously though, I don't know if either Anne or Elizabeth fit the role of the meek and submissive woman.  Jane Gray was, even with as smart as she was. She obeyed her parents mainly because they treated her awfully and beat the crap out of her.

I never thought of Jane as a religious martyr, she died because she was a threat to Mary Tudor's throne. Her parents and the Dudleys made a deal to crown Jane and Guildord Dudley king and queen..... the people didn't like it and wanted Mary to be the rightful queen. Mary executed her mainly to keep her crown safe. 

6 hours ago, viii said:

This is so nice. I wish my sisters lived closer to me. It's hard being the long distance auntie (they only live an hour apart from each other and get together regularly) Facetime/Skpe is truly life changing - my nieces and nephew know me because of it, rather than the two-three times a year I get to see them. Thank god for technology! 

THANK YOU! I am so tired of reading books where Anne resented Elizabeth for being a girl or neglected her because she was obsessed with getting pregnant immediately again. All accounts of history have shown Anne to be a loving mother who adored her daughter.

Anne never resented Elizabeth. 

21 hours ago, fundiefan said:

My mention of Anne Boleyn was a side note. I didn't transition clearly. I meant them saying they named their baby after Jane Grey - Jane is the one who was the pawn who did nothing to be queen for 9 days other than be a woman who couldn't say no to to the powerful / power hungry men in her life. Her life is not one to be inspired by.

Jane was mostly turned into a martyr by those of her own time who wanted to believe she was more than she was and Mary I was the eveilest of evil who killed her because she was Protestant instead of, you know, a usurper to the throne. Jane committed treason and that cost her her life - it wasn't her religion.

Allthough, yes, her religion played a role in her being the one used and religion is all tangled in everything from that era, but that was not the underlying cause of her being put to death. Once her family joined the rebellion there wasn't really anything else Mary I could do but follow through. 

Anyway. I just find it insanely uneducated to say Jane Grey inspires you and you even off handedly named your kid after her. 

There are thousands of women in the world, throughout history, and Protestant "heros" at that, who could be inspirational. To me, they don't actually know shit about Jane Grey and have swallowed the Protestant persecution line they've been fed.

Or, they just made it up on the spot because for some reason they didn't want to just leave it as "we like the names". 

 

Jane was a pawn and as I said she was maltreated by her family and pretty much beaten into accepting a false marriage and a false crown. Jane would have been happy locked up in her room reading her books.... And as you say while religion had a part it wasn't the cause of her execution. Mary Tudor knew Jane all her life. From what I have read, she felt awful executing her but there was no choice. First there was the fear for her throne and second, Prince Phillip her intended didn't want to come to a country where there was such turmoil. Mary executed her for throne and husband. 

[viii]

21 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Anne never resented Elizabeth.  

I know... that's what I was saying, lol. 

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, viii said:

I know... that's what I was saying, lol. 

I know you did, I was agreeing and wondering how that theory got out there. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

There were lots of people executed who could threaten a Tudor on the throne. Children, women, men. Glad we live in 2019 where an angry orange old man acting a fool is the biggest threat to the queen of England right now. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by JermajestyDuggar

[viii]

Probably dramatic flair and little research. 

It's not a stretch to assume that Anne would resent Elizabeth - a large reason why Anne died was because she couldn't give Henry a son. Unless you really do your research, it would be easy to put yourself in her shoes and see how she could resent Elizabeth for not being the desired son. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by viii

[libgirl2]

8 minutes ago, viii said:

Probably dramatic flair and little research. 

It's not a stretch to assume that Anne would resent Elizabeth - a large reason why Anne died was because she couldn't give Henry a son. Unless you really do your research, it would be easy to put yourself in her shoes and see how she could resent Elizabeth for not being the desired son. 

 I think Anne felt that Elizabeth was just as capable of ruling the country as a male child, I think she was very proud of her. Of course she wanted a male child, I can't even imagine the pressure on her. I would have resented Henry, especially once his eyes strayed. 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by libgirl2

[fundiefan]

Like any time period and any person, things are far more complicated than they appear on the surface. And, seemingly opposing / conflicting feelings can exist simultaneously. 

I don't doubt that Anne was proud of her daughter and loved her and glad to have her. Everything I've read over the years indicates that to be true. 

But, Anne married  a man who altered history so he could divorce his first wife, who couldn't give him a son, in order to marry someone who he thought could - Anne. By being part of that process and married to the King, she had a "duty" to produce a son and there is no doubt that it consumed her in many ways. Even as she loved her daughter. She knew what Henry would/could do to get what he wanted - she was part of his attempts - a key player, before and during her marriage. There is no way she lived a life that wasn't consumed with producing a male heir. She had to know her life depended upon it. 

Even Henry wasn't too overly disappointed with his two daughters at birth - while always expecting a prince, he was said to have loved Mary & Elizabeth both and had the outlook that "next time" it will be a boy. Unfortunately for the women in his life - and all life - next time is not guaranteed. 

I wish I could remember which fundies played dress up and went as Anne as a hero of the faith...I swear it was a Botkin. They've already latched onto her - as if she fed Henry Protestant information just to get him to break with Rome instead of helping him find ways to divorce his wife and marry her. 

Update: a quick Google search found the link - it was the Botkins.

https://botkinsisters.com/2009/07/resurrecting-two-great-queens

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by fundiefan

[Nikedagain?]

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

There were lots of people executed who could threaten a Tudor on the throne. Children, women, men. Glad we live in 2019 where an angry orange old man acting a fool is the biggest threat to the queen of England right now. 

I wanted to laugh emoji at this, but I just could not. Because true. 

[melon]

On 6/4/2019 at 4:14 PM, Palimpsest said:

A never married career woman and a non-Trinitarian to boot.  Get thee behind me, Satan!

I hope they never call a daughter Fanny.  It's the Brit in me.

 

My grandmother,her name was Frances,after her grandmother,but she was called Fannie,and she hated it.Her aunts,uncles and parents,mostly..not her brother,he knew how she hated it..she said it was a name for a behind...lol.I asked if Opa called her Frances or Fannie..she said no,he always called her honey.

And I do not like names like:Harper,Hudson,Ellison,Addison,Madison,etc for girls.I think it's because of my middle name,it's a sur  name,and it sounds like a man's name,I have always hated it.I'm just glad for my first name,think Henry the 8th...three of his six wives had the same name.That's my name.

[Satan'sFortress]

@Bad Wolfand @Curious thanks for sharing your beautiful work.  I imagine people will cherish those as family heirlooms.  I would.

I am a knitter.  I wonder if that cat blanket comes in a knit pattern?  I'd love to make one.

[Anna Bolinas]

I've read conflicting reports on whether or not Anne really wanted to breastfeed Elizabeth (I don't think Eric Ives mentions it in his biography, but Tracey Borman mentions it in her book on Elizabeth and the important women in her life). But Anne definitely did keep Elizabeth with her more than was customary for a queen at that time, even putting baby Elizabeth on a little cushion next to Anne's chair when they were receiving courtiers and such. And while it is likely she did want a son very badly, much like Katherine of Aragon, both women loved their daughters fiercely.

With regards to Jane--she could be an example to fundie daughters, but not in the way their parents would appreciate. If Jane Grey could come back to life and give advice, she'd probably say, "I wish I'd gotten away from my parents and gone somewhere I could be a scholar! Marriage isn't all it's cracked up to be, and just because your parents want something, doesn't mean it's something good for you!" Then the fundie parents would probably be just fine with executing her all over again.

[JordynDarby5]

8 hours ago, fundiefan said:

Like any time period and any person, things are far more complicated than they appear on the surface. And, seemingly opposing / conflicting feelings can exist simultaneously. 

I don't doubt that Anne was proud of her daughter and loved her and glad to have her. Everything I've read over the years indicates that to be true. 

But, Anne married  a man who altered history so he could divorce his first wife, who couldn't give him a son, in order to marry someone who he thought could - Anne. By being part of that process and married to the King, she had a "duty" to produce a son and there is no doubt that it consumed her in many ways. Even as she loved her daughter. She knew what Henry would/could do to get what he wanted - she was part of his attempts - a key player, before and during her marriage. There is no way she lived a life that wasn't consumed with producing a male heir. She had to know her life depended upon it. 

Even Henry wasn't too overly disappointed with his two daughters at birth - while always expecting a prince, he was said to have loved Mary & Elizabeth both and had the outlook that "next time" it will be a boy. Unfortunately for the women in his life - and all life - next time is not guaranteed. 

I wish I could remember which fundies played dress up and went as Anne as a hero of the faith...I swear it was a Botkin. They've already latched onto her - as if she fed Henry Protestant information just to get him to break with Rome instead of helping him find ways to divorce his wife and marry her. 

Update: a quick Google search found the link - it was the Botkins.

https://botkinsisters.com/2009/07/resurrecting-two-great-queens

 

Definitely. Anne probably loved her daughter but she knew she needed a son to secure her position. As long as she had miscarriages, stillbirths and daughters she knew she'd never be secure. Henry could always find another, younger woman who could and would bear him sons. As she had done just that to Katherine with the help of Henry. I would laugh if fundies claimed her as Protestant martyr. She definitely knew what she was doing. She saw mistresses come and go and end up with nothing for it. Like her sister. She took her shot at Queen and won. I don't like that she gets all the blame since Henry is equal or more. He was a man and King, he didn't have to ditch Katherine. Anne learned early on how much it sucks to be Queen. All the pressure of being an heir and having to say nothing while the King beds who ever he wants which of course she couldn't do that. She tried, won and then lost. But the only thing she didn't count on was the beheading. She really thought she'd end up like Katherine. Banished, divorced and dropped to a lower title. She had no idea that he'd have her beheaded. I do love how many biographies and documentaries on the beheading add that Henry loved her enough to send for a French man more skilled in beheadings so it would be quick. Gee, that's romantic.  After she dead everyone assumed Henry would go back to the same Henry he had been before Anne. They blamed her for the change. But of course he didn't. Not even after finally getting his son and heir.  Which while I hate all the murders and crap to come but people could no longer blame Anne for it.  

I have always wondered if it was God or karma or both Henry tried to ditch his loving, supportive wife and treated her like crap for an heir only to get another daughter and string of miscarriages and still births. Henry had Anne beheaded, he gets a son finally with the next wife, who dies 12 years later and he's never able to father anymore children. Edward only lasts a few years before dying and without an heir. All that work for nothing. Maybe God didn't approve of wife beheadings Henry? Leaving two daughters. Because he never allowed Mary to marry, he pretty much doomed her chances of having an heir, leaving Elizabeth who never married; can't imagine what about seeing her father's marriages, her sister's marriage and cousin Mary of Scots marriages would make want to never get married. 

I lean towards them just liking the name Jane Grey, but then Fundies are weird. The poor girl never would have been beheaded if not for her parents and in-laws. Having no choice but to do what her parents made her is what screwed her over. Not being Protestant. Even Mary knew that which is why she waited so long before ordering it. She knew Jane wasn't behind the uprising and had been forced into it. She originally planned on sparing her or keeping her in the tower. She didn't want to execute her. But Jane's stupid father trying another attempt and Mary's interested in marrying Philip ended up forcing her hand. I understand feeling sorry for her. I do too. That was messed up and not her fault. But she really isn't a Protestant martyr. She wasn't killed because she was Protestant. She was killed because her stupid father and everyone else in the plan assumed everyone would just go long with Jane being declared Queen. When no that was never going to happen, they had none of the popularity, and everyone knew the crown belonged to Mary. Hell, even Jane knew that and tried to refuse the Crown. I do love that she never did make her husband King.