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samurai_sarah

Lori 67: Stop reading - it'll give you ideas

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Waffle Time
Hane

@Alisamer, that was pretty much my childhood. I never knew what would set my mother off. I almost always had to be “around” in case she wanted something of me. Yes, I was able to engage in a few extracurricular activities, but she allowed me limited time for certain things like editing my school literary magazine (to the point where the faculty advisor made negative comments about how I wasn’t pulling my weight). I longed to take kids’ acting classes and to become a candy striper (hospital volunteer) with my best friend, but was afraid to ask. 

It’s only since I’ve been posting here that I’ve discovered what a sister-mom I was. (And there were only three of us kids, my sisters being five and twelve years younger than I.) I attribute a lot of it to two major health situations my mom had: she spent a summer with her leg in a full cast when I was 8, and had a hysterectomy when I was 12 and my baby sister only 7 months old. I did a lot more “mom” stuff than most kids my age did, but never noticed it, even though three of my friends had baby siblings 12 years younger than they were and their moms were basically moms. I did benefit from learning a lot about child care, but recently have come to realize that I was always expected to act more grown-up than I was. (In those days, few parents knew the difference between “well-behaved” and “mature.”) On a couple of occasions, my mother criticized me for wanting toys for gifts instead of more “grown-up” things like craft kits and a desk. I was in elementary school at the time. (Strangely enough, my mother had often complained about having been a sister-mom herself, babysitting or scrubbing the stairs while other kids were out playing.)

It was all about control. I wasn’t allowed to live away at college and had to commute—it never dawned on me that I was 18 and an adult. I basically got married at 20 to get the hell out of the house.

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AuntKrazy

What about we women who are NTs on MBTI - who are wired to be logical and analytical?  Are we less "godly" because of our personality?  Are we somehow less "feminine" automatically?

Lori, please stop trying to make women feel less than for measures that are Lori-created and not actually real.

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ColeJo

I wonder if Lori would approve of women's conferences like this one.

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Free Jana Duggar
3 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I think what being spanked and yelled at as a child taught me was to be quiet and stay out of the way. Still to this day I'm finding that sometimes I'll see something and say "Oh, I always wanted to do that..." (take dance lessons, stuff like that) and my mom will say "But you never asked!" 

Well of course I didn't ask. I never asked for anything I didn't really have to. I'd check out every ballet book in the library and practice the moves in my bedroom using the footboard as a barre, read every novel I could find with a dancer in it, read biographies of famous dancers, I'd go to my friend's recitals, I'd watch them dance and twirl batons in the parade, I'd try to teach myself to twirl a toy baton, etc. The too-big hand-me-down ballet shoes we got were kept carefully in my closet (and worn to try dancing) for years and years. Any TV show or movie with dancing in it, I'd watch as often as possible. I could not possibly have done anything more to show my interest. But I'd never ever ask. Lessons cost money. Costumes cost money. And I'd been yelled at plenty of times about how "We're not made of money!" We took piano, because mom plays piano. We did a couple years of gymnastics (Impossible while wearing my heavy thick glasses and being incredibly nearsighted) because my sister kept trying to use the sofa as a balance beam and nearly broke it and her. But no dancing.

If I'd had kids, I'd have wanted them to not be afraid to ask for things. Sure, they couldn't possibly get everything they asked for, but I wouldn't want them to think that their interests didn't matter, or that they weren't important enough to ask for things. 

I love my parents, but I still try not to ask them for anything, and feel bad when I do. I take on too much and feel bad passing on things I just can't fit in. I'm pretty sure that's not what they meant to teach, but there it is. 

Sorry you went through that. I was spanked, but I never feared my parents. I still knew they loved me and I could ask for anything. I never felt I couldn't go to them if I had a problem. 

That could be because they didn't spank much and never for hours over raisins.

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Sobeknofret
5 minutes ago, ColeJo said:

I wonder if Lori would approve of women's conferences like this one.

She would if it were her in that pulpit, and make no mistake.

Any other woman? No.

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ColeJo

@Sobeknofret She probably wouldn't approve of cheering like they're at a football game.

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Sobeknofret
3 minutes ago, ColeJo said:

@Sobeknofret She probably wouldn't approve of cheering like they're at a football game.

I dunno. If they were cheering for her, she would love it. She's an attention whore- anything that gets her adulation and approval is perfectly fine by her. It's why she keeps paying to boost her Facebook posts, and brags often about the times her posts have gone viral. Any attention is good attention to Lori Alexander.

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EowynW
3 hours ago, AuntKrazy said:

What about we women who are NTs on MBTI - who are wired to be logical and analytical?  Are we less "godly" because of our personality?  Are we somehow less "feminine" automatically?

Lori, please stop trying to make women feel less than for measures that are Lori-created and not actually real.

INTJ woman married to an INFP man. Conservative Christians don't know what to do with a couple like us lol. 

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ColeJo
Posted (edited)

Does Lori like to "err on the side of taking the Bible too literally than too liberally" because reading it literally doesn't require her to use her brain? Her hermeneutic can be described in one word: lazy.

If you read 1 Timothy 2, women are commanded to learn. She would learn that the Greek word for 'authority' only appears once in the New Testament, which can make understanding the meaning problematic. It was also not used very much in Paul's time or before that. If there isn't clarification on what that word actually means or what the tense is in the text, it is difficult to make it "law". 

I think it is better to err on the side of grace because women are allowed to pray, prophesy, preach sound doctrine, etc. It is said that the Holy Spirit doesn't discriminate when giving spiritual gifts. 

Look, I dared to share with my Sunday School class that I was wrestling with this specific text. You know what I got? I got lectured by the worship leader (not pastor because he has not finished the classes) because he felt that the office of pastor should only be held by men because authority. In this particular lecture even though he didn't respond to me directly, he said that women are good with children. He explained that his wife has strengths that he doesn't and blah blah blah. I was very furious and it is going to take a lot time for me to trust him again.

I walked off stage in the middle of the worship set because I was angry, like 'flipping tables' angry. I am a child of God. I am complete in Him. I do not need to be a wife and a mother to fulfill my purpose. If God calls me to ministry, it is not because men don't step up (that's a whole other problem entirely). I was not created in the image of God to be a replacement. This power struggle is a result of the Fall- "you shall desire your husband and he will RULE over you." 

BTW- The denomination that my church is affiliated with is Assemblies of God. They took a position affirming a woman's call to ministry, including that of a pastor. This has been addressed at the board meeting (perks of having a dad on the board), but this is personal. I know that I need to take the high road to maintain unity. I don't want to stoop to his level. I can't help but wonder if that is why I'm not getting more "meat" from being taught. You know what? If God is calling me to ministry (maybe not preaching), I'm not going to wait for men to notice me.

Sorry for the rant.

Edited by ColeJo

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Tired
Sarah92
6 hours ago, AuntKrazy said:

What about we women who are NTs on MBTI - who are wired to be logical and analytical?  Are we less "godly" because of our personality?  Are we somehow less "feminine" automatically?

Lori, please stop trying to make women feel less than for measures that are Lori-created and not actually real.

I'm an INTJ and have in the past struggled to feel emotions let alone process them. Trauma experiences can do that to you I suppose. I'm much better now but it took getting out of my home town to do it. 

Anyways, I remember I was cooking and somehow my stove caught on fire. My reaction was to literally say "oh, fire.", put a lid on it to cut off some oxygen and then put it out. No drama or hysterics. Lol 

My dad used to tell me I had a masculine mind. We had a talk a few years ago and he doesn't say that anymore. 

That being said I need more emotional people in my life because it helps me process my emotions and remember to evaluate them. I think sometimes I become so focused on helping others work through their emotions I forget to attend to mine. 

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Lgirlrocks

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Im sorry but marrying young so you can get a “good” guy is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I’m surprised Lori posted this because he says have a career later not don’t ever have a career. Not every women can breastfeed not does every women that can want to. It is a personal choice. 

Men in Lori’s circles don’t worship women. They idealize women being doormats and submitting. 

If I had married the first person I dated it would not have lasted. He wasn’t a good guy. None of the guys I dated were good. That’s why nothing lasted. Marriage is a serious thing. It is meant to be forever. It’s not an exchange, money for sex. It’s a partnership that should be filled with love. 

Kids don’t always bring fulfillment. Not everyone desires them. Marrying young so you can have kids you don’t want isn’t healthy. We no longer have to populate the earth. 

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hollyfeller
4 hours ago, EowynW said:

INTJ woman married to an INFP man. Conservative Christians don't know what to do with a couple like us lol. 

Fellow INTJ here!  I'm an engineer and "taking a job away from a man" as far as Lori is concerned!

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feministxtian
1 hour ago, Sarah92 said:

My dad used to tell me I had a masculine mind.

I'm in the same boat. Logical, analytical, unemotional. The problem is that when I feel emotions, I don't quite know how to process them. Most of the time, I don't bother feeling and don't have to process. Now, I'm trying to process some very serious emotions and honestly, I don't know how. I fall back to my "safety mechanism" of just shutting down. Ignore as much as possible, sleep as much as possible, avoid as much as possible. 

This shitstorm is driving me beyond what I can cope with. RIght now I just want to get in the car, pick a direction and keep going until I run out of money. However, I know I can't do that so I'll just live in my little red rage and keep myself from blowing shit up.

22 minutes ago, hollyfeller said:

Fellow INTJ here!  I'm an engineer and "taking a job away from a man" as far as Lori is concerned!

You too? You horrible little hussy!! :) :) :) 

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Waffle Time
smittykins

Years ago, I came across a book written by Jerry Falwell around the time he founded the Moral Majority that basically said the country was going to Hell in a handbasket, and we needed to return to our Biblical foundations.  This paragraph has stayed with me:

”If a 25-year-old woman has two children two years apart and stays home to raise them until they are 18, she has two-thirds of her adult life to do whatever she wants.”

I’m still trying to figure out the logistics of that...

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EowynW
10 hours ago, hollyfeller said:

Fellow INTJ here!  I'm an engineer and "taking a job away from a man" as far as Lori is concerned!

How neat to see others here! I was not taught to or able to my strengths growing up in my fundie family, so I'm only just now discovering myself. 

My Mom and sister say I have a man's brain too lol. 

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Sarah92
10 hours ago, feministxtian said:

I'm in the same boat. Logical, analytical, unemotional. The problem is that when I feel emotions, I don't quite know how to process them. Most of the time, I don't bother feeling and don't have to process. Now, I'm trying to process some very serious emotions and honestly, I don't know how. I fall back to my "safety mechanism" of just shutting down. Ignore as much as possible, sleep as much as possible, avoid as much a

I'm very similar to this. I'm very good at compartmentalizing. I hardcore shut down my emotions to work and still be able to help other people. I joke that it takes me about five months to start processing an event that happens. Like my brother did some fucked up shit on Christmas and I'm just now starting to feel the anger I should have felt. When it happened I just went into let's fix this mode. I have to be careful because when I go into high stress mode I don't care about other people's feelings and that's a very harsh place to be in. But for me when I was at my unhealthiest emotional state I just felt numb but didn't know what to do. It was knowing logically that I should be feeling but I only felt kinda hollow. 

On the brighter side, I think what has helped me in the past was mindful meditation. I just let emotions flow through me and ended up just crying. It was painful but also an intense relief to just cry. That and pesky but lovely friends that are good at hitting emotional spots and then letting you sob it out. 

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SuperNova
1 hour ago, Sarah92 said:

I'm very similar to this. I'm very good at compartmentalizing. I hardcore shut down my emotions to work and still be able to help other people. I joke that it takes me about five months to start processing an event that happens. Like my brother did some fucked up shit on Christmas and I'm just now starting to feel the anger I should have felt. When it happened I just went into let's fix this mode. I have to be careful because when I go into high stress mode I don't care about other people's feelings and that's a very harsh place to be in. But for me when I was at my unhealthiest emotional state I just felt numb but didn't know what to do. It was knowing logically that I should be feeling but I only felt kinda hollow. 

My therapist told me that there's nothing wrong with compartmentalizing as long as you remember to open the boxes! 

Mr. Nova once told me that one of the things that drew him to me was that I wasn't emotional like most women. Logic has served me well but it came from intense childhood trauma. We weren't "just" abused, we were tortured. In our house, the only safe move to make was none at all. It required much thought and timing to avoid danger in our own home. As a result, I am excellent in a crisis, everything slows down and I can clearly see my choices, no emotion involved whatsoever because preservation is almost innate.

I've mentioned before that I worked with a therapist for a long time to learn to properly process emotion. Like Sarah92, my emotional responses are delayed. I cried for my Nana five years after her death. I was standing at the kitchen sink and just lost it. Mr Nova was completely baffled. I'm better than I used to be but at times emotion can still feel like I'm exposed or vulnerable to harm.

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hollyfeller
2 hours ago, EowynW said:

How neat to see others here! I was not taught to or able to my strengths growing up in my fundie family, so I'm only just now discovering myself. 

My Mom and sister say I have a man's brain too lol. 

I was very fortunate to grow up with parents (a teacher and a lawyer) who encouraged me to chase my dreams.  My dad became a feminist the day I was born, and my mom wanted me to have more options that she did.  It is so discouraging to know that not everyone was supported in that way.  God gave us brains to USE them!

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onemama
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, hollyfeller said:

God gave us brains to USE them!

Yes! and that dominion business that you hear a lot about in fundiedom? It was given to both the man and the woman. 

1 hour ago, SuperNova said:

Logic has served me well but it came from intense childhood trauma. We weren't "just" abused, we were tortured. In our house, the only safe move to make was none at all. It required much thought and timing to avoid danger in our own home.

I loved your post, not because I like what happened to you but because it seemed like the best way to send you a hug.  Your childhood sounds like a nightmare.

Edited by onemama

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Lgirlrocks

Not every women has a “career” for the title. Even if she does that’s not of you god damned business. Not a single verse commands women’s to only work at home. Not a single verse says women can’t work outside of the home. Even if there was one guess what? We don’t live our lives based on biblical law. Only the OT had laws that were known to us and according to Lori we don’t follow that. Paul’s letters are just that, letters. 

Proverbs 31 women had her own business and ran her household. She had servants that she oversaw. 

13E5AFF6-2B07-480B-9DA8-C03C80FA4A78.thumb.jpeg.67254c5fba7a7671f3d2c422777889ba.jpeg

Spoiler

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I agree that if I was a mom I would want to stay home with my kids until they were in school. But that is for me. My opinion is for me. Of course if I couldn’t afford it I would work. 

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wallysmommy

The woman in Proverbs is fictional. Lori makes it sound biographical. A real biblical character was Rahab. She had a job. She was mightily used by God. She and her family were saved. 

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SweetLaurel
1 hour ago, Lgirlrocks said:

I agree that if I was a mom I would want to stay home with my kids until they were in school. But that is for me. My opinion is for me. Of course if I couldn’t afford it I would work. 

Part of a research project I did in college had me touring 8 different day cares. Every single one of the directors told us that part of her job as director was to walk the 'new' moms from the infant room to their (usually not expensive cars)  as they sobbed on their first day back to work and convince them they could go and would survive.    It is entirely normal and expected to want to stay with your infant.  Then there is the real world.  Unlike Lori's world.  The daycares are almost all full and most of the women aren't heading back to work to buy themselves expensive clothes and fancy vacations and most don't have the CEO jobs she thinks they do.  It's to feed their families and put a roof over their heads.  Lori has no clue how most people live, and never will.  

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Sarah92

Yes real world had grandparents raising children and spouses passing. I work with a lot of blended families and many have difficult stories. Most of the moms don't work for funsies. They work because the government and other family can't support them and their needs. 

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Liza
On 5/31/2019 at 3:05 PM, onemama said:

My parents spanked us a lot, sometimes repetitively.  I'm still stubborn and strong willed, but strangely enough, I struggle with fear of authorities. I guess that's the only thing all those spankings taught me: fear authority because they have the right to inflict pain on you and humiliate you. 

Spanking is assault and the opposite of treating others as you would have them treat you. I believe that spanking on the bare bottom, as Lori recommends, is nothing less than sexual assault.   It will mess with the brain of a child. 

At the very least, being beaten by those who ought to love her and protect her sets a child up to question God's love. God is supposed to be our father. How exactly is a child supposed to trust God as his father when his earthly father beats him into submission?  

@onemama   i am sorry that this happened to you.  Yes, bare bottom spanking is humiliating.  Completely inappropriate and borders on sexual abuse. 

My father was agnostic and  my mother really believed in Jesus and in practicing his teachings  (that is true Christianity to me) ...not the fanatical Lori kind who take the Bible literally and worry contniuously about a wrathful God.  How can you possibly love what you fear?   I went to a rigid Catholic school and left after 8  years because of the psychological harm it did me.   Belief via fear never did work for me nor did the authoritarian structure.

I believe that if we try to follow the two greatest commandments .. love God, love self and love others as we do the self, to the best of our ability, that pretty much encompasses everything.  Do no harm ... love ... give ... be generous in all it's senses. 

I not only think that Lori s a fanatic fundamentalist, but I believe she has cult views.  Ig hear a lot of   Gothard principles come out of her mouth and, of course, Quiverfull & the Patriarchy.  She mouths off about false teachers all the time, but it is she who is the false teacher.  Isn't that always the case?  

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hollyfeller

https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2019/05/24/the-world-of-the-handmaids-tale-not-completely-bad/

If Lori and/or Ken read here, I would truly love to see what they have to say about this.

Especially this...

Spoiler

What is Biblical About the Practices of the Republic of Gilead?

What follows are several things that are in fact Biblical about the Republic of Gilead:

...

4) Gilead’s practice of considering women to be the property of men is a Biblical concept. The Bible list’s a man’s wife as one of his possessions in the 10th commandment (Exodus 20:17). In the Scriptures adultery and pre-marital sex were not just considered sexual sins, but also a property crime against either the father of the virgin woman or the husband of the betrothed woman or wife (Exodus 22:16-17, Deuteronomy 22:20-22).  The problem in Gilead though is that they treated unmarried women as the property of the state which is a violation of the God given right of ownership of the father over his daughter.

 

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