Lori 67: Stop reading - it'll give you ideas

[wallysmommy]

Ali Ch is a Flickas constipated goldfish.

[Petronella]

3 hours ago, hollyfeller said:

Oh this is rich!

Ugh, Ali Ch.

"Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it" is not a PROMISE. It's an OBSERVATION. The book of Proverbs is a whole lot of observations of life and how it generally goes. Not how it absolutely always goes.

The fundie mindset really is all about control. If I do X, I will get Y. But life is not a vending machine.

[Free Jana Duggar]

I have always understood Proverbs 22:6 to mean when your child is old your teaching will still be in his heart and he will remember it and know what is right.  It's not a guarantee they will follow it. 

[Botkinetti]

Lori and her posters sound like desperate children . They did everything right but somehow some of their children are using their own brains to make their own choices. They know they have been judgmental as hell about other families but now want someone to reassure them that it wasn’t their fault. 

[SongRed7]

12 hours ago, Free Jana Duggar said:

Today the UnGodly Mentor is yammering on about parents, and who is to blame if children aren't 'godly.'  She quotes Carl Broggi, whoever the heck that is, saying:  "Maybe you know Christian couples whose children turned out badly.

This is just more spiritual abuse heaped on women (and men, but mostly women)...If one believes in free will (and I do) then all parents can do it the best they can - not just in matters of faith, but in raising children to be good, kind productive members of society and not assholes.  But while a parent can present a role model (both good and bad), it really is up to the individual at some point in their life how they want to be, believe, behave towards others, etc. 

I notice all these fangirls flogging themselves over their so-called "failings" and Lori is absolutely silent.  Heap on the guilt. It's the women' fault after all. They must not be Godly enough.   

This makes my soul weep. 

Edited June 20, 2019 by SongRed7

[Koala]

Oh the irony...

[hollyfeller]

1 hour ago, Koala said:

Oh the irony...

OMG, she thinks she is the exception to every rule!

[wallysmommy]

8 hours ago, wallysmommy said:

Ali Ch is a Flickas constipated goldfish.

This is why I should not post on my Kindle after taking my meds to sleep.  Somehow I was trying to say that Ali Ch has as much wisdom to share as Flicka's constipated goldfish.

 

[Loveday]

12 minutes ago, wallysmommy said:

This is why I should not post on my Kindle after taking my meds to sleep.  Somehow I was trying to say that Ali Ch has as much wisdom to share as Flicka's constipated goldfish.

 

Oh, I don't know. I like to think of Ali Ch as a constipated goldfish. 

[hollyfeller]

13 minutes ago, wallysmommy said:

This is why I should not post on my Kindle after taking my meds to sleep.  Somehow I was trying to say that Ali Ch has as much wisdom to share as Flicka's constipated goldfish.

 

I used to take Ambien and I sent my BFF some questionable texts after it took effect!

[thoughtful]

3 hours ago, Free Jana Duggar said:

I have always understood Proverbs 22:6 to mean when your child is old your teaching will still be in his heart and he will remember it and know what is right.  It's not a guarantee they will follow it. 

The original Hebrew begins with "Start* a child according to his way**" - no mention of training, no "should," and the "his" clearly means the child, not God.

So there are people who interpret it to mean that we should notice and honor children's natural gifts and interests, and not force them to be someone they can never be. I think that's a lot more likely to be correct than any interpretation that involves redirecting the child's path.

The verse actually doesn't say or imply anything about morality, behavior or faith. I guess someone could make a case that "his path" means "the path the parent wants him to take," but it's not actually there in the text.

* The first word can mean inaugurate, consecrate, dedicate, and it often comes up translated as educate, teach, etc., but I'm not sure how much that is due to the mistranslations of Proverbs. I had to look it up -- it's not a word I know. A fluent speaker of Hebrew (which I am not) may be able to say more about its usual use, if it's still used. https://www.morfix.co.il/en/חנך

** This one I'm sure of -- I learned the word "derekh" (direction, way) as a child, and the suffix added makes it "his direction." Since there's no mention of God before it, the "his" clearly refers to the child. https://context.reverso.net/translation/hebrew-english/דרכו

Edited June 20, 2019 by thoughtful
riffle

[Sarah92]

Yeah I kinda like the idea of picturing Ali Ch as a constipated goldfish. I can just picture this angry constipated goldfish typing shit out because it refuses to come of the other end. It's gotta be redirected somewhere. They're empathy and emotions appear to be constipated as well. On the other hand, I have no idea what this Flicka's constipated goldfish is about. 

[thoughtful]

It's a reference to some FJ history -- sorry if I made you feel left out.

We had a . . . don't know what to call her . . . troll? Person lying for fun? . . . anyway, a poster who told some huge whoppers. One of her stories is that she had a very expensive pet fish who was constipated.

It's sort of become FJ-speak for someone telling a story that couldn't possibly be true.

Others may fill in the details -- I don't remember them that well, or the name(s) that poster used. But it's one of the reasons we have these lovely emojis:

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by thoughtful
riffle, again! Must clean my glasses

[Alisamer]

9 minutes ago, thoughtful said:

The original Hebrew begins with "Start* a child according to his way**" - no mention of training, no "should" and the "his" clearly means the child, not God.

So there are people who interpret it to mean that we should notice and honor children's natural gifts and interests, and not force them to be someone they can never be. I think that's a lot more likely to be correct than any interpretation that involves redirecting the child's path.

Interestingly, it seems the more likely to be correct version is basically the exact opposite of what many fundie families want. 

It's also interesting to see how many of these people have kids who are now adults and have gone their own way rather than strictly following their parents' intentions for them. I think we will slowly see more and more of that over time. Once there are 150+ Duggar grand and great-grand children, how many of them are really likely to be perfectly toeing the party line? Even the Duggar kids are slowly loosening the stupider and more restrictive rules, little by little. There'll probably be one or two major sudden changes, but I think most will be the normal evolution into generic or liberal Christian. The born-again converts are usually much more fire and brimstone than those who grow up as Christians of any kind.

[fransalley]

I know two very devout Christian women.  One is a preacher's wife, the other is a doctor's wife.  Both are very active in their church. One has two sons.  The other has four sons and a daughter.

Of my friend with the two sons, one is Christian and the other is atheist.

Of my friend with the five children, one was a missionary and is now working with a non-profit.  One preaches.  The other three have had serious struggles with their faith.  (BTW, it's the daughter who preaches, with her family's full support.)

To those that would blame the parents, I call, bull.

[usmcmom]

This article sums up what I was taught about “training up your children,” and it goes along with what some of you are also writing. Of course, my teaching was from a professor (who held a doctorate in biblical studies) at the evil Christian university I attended. He used the illustration of a young tree. If a tree begins growing in a certain direction, we allow it to follow its bent. To force it against its bent might break the tree. But if we encourage its natural path - to follow the way it is bent - it will grow into a strong and beautiful tree.  

So, I usually think of the verse as “train up a child in the way he is bent...” 

 https://ptv.org/devotional/understand-your-childs-unique-bent/

[klein_roeschen]

4 hours ago, Botkinetti said:

Lori and her posters sound like desperate children . They did everything right but somehow some of their children are using their own brains to make their own choices. They know they have been judgmental as hell about other families but now want someone to reassure them that it wasn’t their fault. 

Put your child into a tiny box about how the have to live and to believe and you see 2 things. The first are the ones who try to get comfortable inside, even if it's harmfull to them and make them miserable. And the second ones grow out of the box and leave it behind, some just for a slightly bigger box of that and others leave it completly behind. They can beat the bible down on their kids, isolate them, educate them at home, it doesn't eradicate their free will and their own brain. And they can't avoid the greater world forever.

[older than allosaurs]

Our chorus sings this, and the longer I live and look around, the truer it gets.

 

On Children

Your children are not your children

They are the sons and the daughters

of life's longing for itself.

 

They come through you but

They are not from you.

And though they are with

you, they belong not to you.

You can give them your love

But not your thoughts

They have their own thoughts.

 

You can house their bodies but

not their souls, For their souls

dwell in a place of tomorrow

which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

 

You can strive to be like them, but

you cannot make just like you.

Strive to be like them

But you cannot make just like you.

Kahlil Gibran

 

to hear it live:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYAkcL36aCE

[Koala]

Speaking of "child training", Alyssa just acquired an "intentional and preventative" child training book.   There are only 2 reviews so far, so I can't get a good read on what kind of "training" the author is suggesting, but the whole thing leaves me with an uneasy feeling. 

I believe I remember Lori saying she gives TTUAC as a baby shower gift, so I'm sure she couldn't buy that fast enough.  We all know how gleeful she was to report that "Emma wasn't boss!".  

I don't know...I guess the best we can hope, is that it's at least got the gentle Christian parenting spin...

Spoiler

https://www.amazon.com/All-Joy-Intentional-Preventative-Training/dp/1099281776/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=with+all+joy+book&qid=1561052208&s=gateway&sr=8-1

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by Koala

[thoughtful]

48 minutes ago, older than allosaurs said:

Our chorus sings this, and the longer I live and look around, the truer it gets.

 

On Children

Thanks for this blast from my past! I had forgotten this wonderful song -- I've sung and conducted it, but it was a long time ago.

[smittykins]

50 minutes ago, Koala said:

Speaking of "child training", Alyssa just acquired an "intentional and preventative" child training book.   There are only 2 reviews so far, so I can't get a good read on what kind of "training" the author is suggesting, but the whole thing leaves me with an uneasy feeling. 

I believe I remember Lori saying she gives TTUAC as a baby shower gift, so I'm sure she couldn't buy that fast enough.  We all know how gleeful she was to report that "Emma wasn't boss!".  

I don't know...I guess the best we can hope, is that it's at least got the gentle Christian parenting spin...

  Reveal hidden contents

https://www.amazon.com/All-Joy-Intentional-Preventative-Training/dp/1099281776/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=with+all+joy+book&qid=1561052208&s=gateway&sr=8-1

 

To me, “child training” sounds like you’re housebreaking a dog.

[thoughtful]

49 minutes ago, Koala said:

Speaking of "child training", Alyssa just acquired an "intentional and preventative" child training book.   There are only 2 reviews so far, so I can't get a good read on what kind of "training" the author is suggesting, but the whole thing leaves me with an uneasy feeling. 

Online stuff from the author:

Quote

I believe with all of my heart that spanking in a way that is respectful and honors your child, and is done in a loving, controlled, precise manner will not only modify attitudes, improve behavior and strengthen the relationship between parent and child, but it will also point our children to the grace they receive from Jesus who has paid the ultimate penalty for all sin.

Quote

5. it’s in the wrist

This is super practical, but also (hopefully) super helpful to relieve some of the doubting and second guessing in what to do with the actual spanking part. The point of spanking is to reenforce the truth you are teaching with a small sting to provide a painful deterrent to not repeat the action again. Spanking is never to injure, scare or cause harm.

The “rod of discipline” as the Bible refers, should never ever be violent. Although there are no specifics on how spankings should be administered there’s certainly no reason whatsoever to assume that it’s talking about any brutal form of punishment. A parent who is clearly angry, lacks self control, and swings hard or in any way without restriction is in sin. That type of spanking is not out of a heart that is obedient to the Lord, rather it lacks love and has no concern for the good of the child. That form of discipline is unbiblical, sinful and wrong, and that is not at ALL what I am attempting to communicate.

 Once you have gone to a private place, speak with them first on your lap and then let them know exactly what is going to happen. Then turn them over and hold them close and spank on their buttocks or thigh.  With older/larger children have them place their hands on the door or the side of the bed and lean over slightly.

When we spank, we use a wooden spoon, a ping pong paddle, a hand, or a tiny strip of leather and flick the wrist. A few flicks of the wrist on the fatty part of the thigh or directly on the buttocks will not cause damage to their bodies. The desire is for a firm sting to occur.

It ought to hurt, which is suuuuuper difficult for us mothers to accept, and it’s okay if it results in a few tears. The aim here is to “mark” the memory of the child. And ultimately it isn’t very loving because it will not be effective.

For young kids I have typically given the number of flicks for the number of years old. My two year old gets 2 small flicks, my 8 year old gets 8 small flicks.

As children get older into the preteen years, spanking becomes less effective and less necessary. We are moving now into the lost-privilege approach, however we do hold spanking as a last option. Making sure to be diligent and consistent with proper discipline earlier in their lives makes spankings become less and less necessary as they get older….but please remember here that this is NOT the priority in our childrearing. Training is and I cannot stress that enough. Spanking and discipline is a very small percentage of our training. Very small.

https://www.megmariewallace.com/regarding-discipline-in-8-steps/

More here:

https://www.megmariewallace.com/the-complete-beginners-guide-to-the-terrible-twoses/

Not looking good.

[SongRed7]

1 hour ago, Koala said:

Speaking of "child training", Alyssa just acquired an "intentional and preventative" child training book.   There are only 2 reviews so far, so I can't get a good read on what kind of "training" the author is suggesting, but the whole thing leaves me with an uneasy feeling. 

Did a little digging. The author is Christian/lifestyle/mommy blogger from Southern California. This is her site: https://www.megmariewallace.com

She doesn't look like she endorses the Pearl method/Lori Alexander method of "training" but it's hard to tell.   Her site seems the currently popular "Pinterest-y"  "everything is so beautiful in my life" with lots of artsy, staged "oh so precious" pictures and lots of selfies.   

I find this trend so fake. It doesn't feel like real like of actual people I know. I don't know that I want to take my advice from them.  The underlying message: "if you are just like me you can have this beautiful photogenic life, too."   Without being too snarky, it looks like the kinda thing Alyssa would like. Afterall most of her social media pages are also filled with beautifully posed selfies and pictures. 

 

EDIT:  I didn't not see @thoughtful post before I left this comment. I didn't dig deep enough. She's a spanker. 

After a little more digging: 

Things Lori would approved of about this author: Spanks, has a 7 children, is thin and beautiful (must not be a glutton!)

Things Lori would not approve of about this author: Went to college, speaks at women's conferences 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by SongRed7

[feministxtian]

You TRAIN dogs. You TEACH children.

[klein_roeschen]

Call it spanking, smacking, flicking all the way you want, it is still beating your child. Their isn't a reseptfull and honorable way to beat your child. And it will only teach them to fear the consequences instead of what's right or wrong. And it may not leave a permanent mark on the body, but on their minds.

And I even using "teach" for training my doggie. For me trainging is for something specific like training for a specific job or training a sport or an art or craft. And even in teaching my dog he was never beaten by me.

@thoughtful she was my former doggie, who died 2 years ago and she never was interested in alcohol. But my current doggie loves some beer. Last summer I sat with my neighbor in the garden and we had our glasses of beer next to our chairs, because no table. With her, it was no problem, she didn't like it. But with him, it was quite surprising when looking down to grab my glass to see my boy enjoying the foam of the cold beer. If gave a firm no for him and we hold our glasses now in our hands, can't support such vices in my doggie.