Here to Divulge... Lindvall, Pearl, VF, Phillips, Gothard, ATI/IBLP

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

I grew up in IT. All of it. A lot of it. I’m almost 35. And I am finding FJ healing as I work through a lot of crap. Here to share. I do have to be careful....

[DomWackTroll]

What were your experiences with Vision Forum? Did you know Doug and Beall Phillips and their children personally? Also, anything you can tell us about VF personalities like the Botkins, Bradricks, Bauchams, Darnells, and Coghlans would be great! Thanks so much. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Can you give us a brief rundow with your past in regards to the fundie groups? Like the years you were most affiliated with them? And when you left? Thanks!

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

9 minutes ago, DomWackTroll said:

What were your experiences with Vision Forum? Did you know Doug and Beall Phillips and their children personally? Also, anything you can tell us about VF personalities like the Botkins, Bradricks, Bauchams, Darnells, and Coghlans would be great! Thanks so much. 

One step removed from all of these (personally) but one very (very) personally involved in....

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

6 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Can you give us a brief rundow with your past in regards to the fundie groups? Like the years you were most affiliated with them? And when you left? Thanks!

My mom came across Gothard/IBLP info when I was probably 8-9 (1992 ish) but We were not “in” it ... not to say I was  not raised with similar weird rules (no black it’s pagan, no pants it’s masculine, no touching it leads to sex)....raised to believe women need to praise and admire men, they need built up, feminism is evil...

1996 - Lindvall brainwashing day of hell

2000 - Started attending 99.9% entrenched ATI/IBLP Gothard worshipping church  

2001 - Started obsessing over Pearls to be a good wife 

2002 - VF became a huge part of life in a number of ways.....

I can’t speak much more about my personal life without giving away too much  but I can speak to many events in the IBLP/VF world of hell...

 

 

 

[quiversR4hunting]

Since your church was ATI/IBLP did you have to go to Journey of the Heart? What about Big Sandy? 

The pearls, what did your parent's think of training a child in their manner? In 2001 when you were obsessing about them you would have been too old to train up how Mike & Debi teach child rearing. (I am basing this off what others have said, I have never read the book To Train up a Child nor Helpmeet). Who introduced you to the Pearl books or magazines? 

[Georgiana]

I'm curious to know how your ATI church felt about families such as the Duggars and the Bates.  I've heard rumors that when the Duggars first started getting attention, many ATI members were apprehensive because they did not have a stellar reputation in the community and they were worried it would damage the movement if those skeletons came out (very justifiably, turns out).  I'm not sure when you broke away, but were you aware of the Duggars through the grapevine?  If so, what was their reputation and/or reaction to the TV specials/19 kids?

What about other prominent families like the Bates and the Paines? Kellers?

Finally, was there a pecking order in IBLP/ATI like there seems to be from the outside?  We call certain families "fundie royalty" because it appears that some families occupy an elevated position above others.  Is that the case that some families are seen as "better" or more prestigious than others?  If so, does it impact who people are expected/allowed to socialize with?

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

26 minutes ago, quiversR4hunting said:

Since your church was ATI/IBLP did you have to go to Journey of the Heart? What about Big Sandy? 

The pearls, what did your parent's think of training a child in their manner? In 2001 when you were obsessing about them you would have been too old to train up how Mike & Debi teach child rearing. (I am basing this off what others have said, I have never read the book To Train up a Child nor Helpmeet). Who introduced you to the Pearl books or magazines? 

Know of - close friends who went - not me. Many stories first hand from those who were at Northwoods and “Headquarters” and Arkansas. Stuff like being locked in a room with nothing but clothes on her back and bread and water til she confessed her wrong doing..... which was that a man had inappropriately hassled her. Obviously her fault. She was about 15. Another her mom was abusive but it was, of course, because of her rebellion. Meekest girl you ever knew, slave labor to her 7 siblings. The stuff makes me a little sick to think of now. One friend came out years after being sent to conversion therapy ATI style - torture and emotional abuse. Another’s family paid to have him work construction on multi-story rooftops with no training or sunblock or any safety gear after giving him less than 4 hours sleep. 

31 minutes ago, quiversR4hunting said:

Since your church was ATI/IBLP did you have to go to Journey of the Heart? What about Big Sandy? 

The pearls, what did your parent's think of training a child in their manner? In 2001 when you were obsessing about them you would have been too old to train up how Mike & Debi teach child rearing. (I am basing this off what others have said, I have never read the book To Train up a Child nor Helpmeet). Who introduced you to the Pearl books or magazines? 

Trained to be His Hellmeet ran around our senior high age group. My mom had kind of raised me like that without meaning to and without having the handbook. I read the books. Must not be a jezebel! I was confronted once for not being meek and quiet enough. At first I was mortified I was so ungodly. Started thinking. Wait. How is laughing “not being meek.” A situation in which a dad screamed at his daughter for having a good time because she was not being “reverent and submissive.” It all started to feel very strange. I wish I had listened to my gut. But I was only 17.... a child. But also — completely past her prime on the marriage gig!

18 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

I'm curious to know how your ATI church felt about families such as the Duggars and the Bates.  I've heard rumors that when the Duggars first started getting attention, many ATI members were apprehensive because they did not have a stellar reputation in the community and they were worried it would damage the movement if those skeletons came out (very justifiably, turns out).  I'm not sure when you broke away, but were you aware of the Duggars through the grapevine?  If so, what was their reputation and/or reaction to the TV specials/19 kids?

What about other prominent families like the Bates and the Paines? Kellers?

Finally, was there a pecking order in IBLP/ATI like there seems to be from the outside?  We call certain families "fundie royalty" because it appears that some families occupy an elevated position above others.  Is that the case that some families are seen as "better" or more prestigious than others?  If so, does it impact who people are expected/allowed to socialize with?

Duggars were secular to us because Tv. ? Seriously. Most of us were not allowed to watch or think about Tv of any kind much less our own similar kind being on it. About 3-4 years after I was on the fringe they became much more “known.” 

There was definitely a pecking order. Gothard was infallible as was his close crowd of leaders. Then inside the church there was the group that traveled the country singing for missions and they were the “most godly” and half of them married each other. One of the big VF names was part of that group FYI. They were better than the rest of us (implied). Then there was the “bad kids.” Their biggest crime was hair gel (boys) and black leather boots with their below the knee skirts (girls). I was in the middle between the two groups. So i must be bad...

[AliceInFundyland]

You might want to take a moment to verify yourself with @Curious

 

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

23 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

I'm curious to know how your ATI church felt about families such as the Duggars and the Bates.  I've heard rumors that when the Duggars first started getting attention, many ATI members were apprehensive because they did not have a stellar reputation in the community and they were worried it would damage the movement if those skeletons came out (very justifiably, turns out).  I'm not sure when you broke away, but were you aware of the Duggars through the grapevine?  If so, what was their reputation and/or reaction to the TV specials/19 kids?

What about other prominent families like the Bates and the Paines? Kellers?

Finally, was there a pecking order in IBLP/ATI like there seems to be from the outside?  We call certain families "fundie royalty" because it appears that some families occupy an elevated position above others.  Is that the case that some families are seen as "better" or more prestigious than others?  If so, does it impact who people are expected/allowed to socialize with?

Not as familiar with the names Keller and Bates. Most of what I know is personally told to me by those who things happened to in IBLP and mentalities that manifested from being involved with the family of one of the top VF names. 

1 minute ago, AliceInFundyland said:

You might want to take a moment to verify yourself with @Curious

 

Sorry what’s this mean? 

[Palimpsest]

1 minute ago, AliceInFundyland said:

You might want to take a moment to verify yourself with @Curious

Yes, that is always a good option for people with insider status, but not actually required.  She keeps your identity confidential.

I always find it hard to formulate questions that don't put people on the spot and rick blowing their covers.  But:

As you have been reading here, are there any areas where you think we have made wrong assumptions about the people you know either first or second hand?

Can you fill in any history on Phillips, BCA, and how he started VF? 

We have been told that VF and the Intern program was very elitist, can you confirm that?

Did you attend any VF Revisionist History shindigs?  Bill Potter, and that other guy who was really keen on justifying slavery (Horn, Hart ... I'm blanking on the name)?

I Kissed Dating Goodbye.  Have you been following Josh Harris and his attempts at rebranding?  

What were reactions, to your knowledge, of followers to the Falls of Gothard and Phillips?

That is plenty of questions for now. 

 

[AliceInFundyland]

What Palimpsest said.

She's the site owner and would verify your credibility without divulging any of your personal information to the rest of us.

... When people come here promising a lot of insider information it gives us a bit more if a guarantee that they are creditable.

FJ has quite the history with trolls and weirdness.

 

[Palimpsest]

20 minutes ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

Sorry what’s this mean? 

@Curious is the owner of FJ.  You can contact her by clicking on her name and sending her a PM.  She'll be able to verify that you are a legitimate insider for us.  

I know it sounds paranoid but unfortunately we have been burned before by people claiming insider info who turned out to be fake.

Or exactly what Alice just said!

Edited May 28, 2019 by Palimpsest

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

1 minute ago, Palimpsest said:

Yes, that is always a good option for people with insider status, but not actually required.  She keeps your identity confidential.

I always find it hard to formulate questions that don't put people on the spot and rick blowing their covers.  But:

As you have been reading here, are there any areas where you think we have made wrong assumptions about the people you know either first or second hand?

Can you fill in any history on Phillips, BCA, and how he started VF? 

We have been told that VF and the Intern program was very elitist, can you confirm that?

Did you attend any VF Revisionist History shindigs?  Bill Potter, and that other guy who was really keen on justifying slavery (Horn, Hart ... I'm blanking on the name)?

I Kissed Dating Goodbye.  Have you been following Josh Harris and his attempts at rebranding?  

What were reactions, to your knowledge, of followers to the Falls of Gothard and Phillips?

That is plenty of questions for now. 

 

?

I followed Josh Harris before IKDG. I actually believe he sincerely regrets his past life. I could be wrong. But the rebranding I think is actually his attempt to right his naive homeschool ultra fundie upbringing. I think it’s been posted here before that his dad and ... was it BRADRICK!’s Dad who had a cult following and may have helped to cover up some indecencies?? Aka poor Josh brainwashed? Who knows....

 “Pastor” Steve Wilkins wrote on “biblical view of slavery....” ? 

The VF interns were 100% elitist. Don’t you know that’s why the Bradrick “betrayal” was so bad? Only one truly stuck it out and defended DP (publicly and semi-privately) to the sword.... can you guess which one? 

The majority of those who were halfway on board and full on board with DP and BG/IBLP were mortified but justifying. These men of God had been assaulted by satan. Of course they couldn’t help themselves. Satan has attacked them. And who were weeee to judge. Poor men of God. Only those of us who “got out” were like “see! See!!” Everyone still semi attached or attached was all in for supporting these men of God who had been led astray by wicked women, who had been accused of worse than it was..... It is truly sickening how those who even disliked the persons who before it happened cemented their support afterwards!

There are very (very) few wrong assumptions that I have found here. Basically the worst thing is not going further. Yes some are still living at home at 37-38+.... and some are back after getting out. Because like the Hotel California you can check out anytime you like but you can never leave. 

Interestingly enough DP brother Brad was responsible for a large group of Christians in I think sudan (?) getting massacred. Accidentally. But pretty sure that didn’t make it into his missions’ newsletter. 

 

13 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

@Curious is the owner of FJ.  You can contact her by clicking on her name and sending her a PM.  She'll be able to verify that you are a legitimate insider for us.  

I know it sounds paranoid but unfortunately we have been burned before by people claiming insider info who turned out to be fake.

Or exactly what Alice just said!

Did so. 

Oh and as to the beginning of VF. All I know is that the Botkins were leaders of a cult prior to VF.... that DP “obtained” likely inappropriately the entirety of HSLDA’s mailing list, was obsessed with manhood and the Titanic and WWII and he built the church with the Scott Brown mentality. Basically he knows how to market and he did so. With the help of money. All of this y’all know already. I wish I had more info but alas by the time we were all involved it was 3-4 years later. 

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

Also to note: Brad Phillips brother of DPWIAT — the guy he has been using for years in Sudan to raise money for years to “fight”  has been captured but BP sent a newsletter claiming it is fake news that he was caught and guess what he needs more money to keep fighting said guy. This 2006 link is the basic start of another Phillips’ deep rabbit hole. 

https://ministrywatchman.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/film-fraud-a-phillips-family-tradition/

 

[Curious]

Hey folks,

@Nolongeroppressed8.4 has verified with me.   As always, this is the internet so we can only do so much, but based on the info I'm comfortable saying she has the experience she is claiming.

 

[ViolaSebastian]

On 5/28/2019 at 4:23 PM, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

Trained to be His Hellmeet

I am using this every opportunity I possibly can. 

[Dreadcrumbs]

What was the final straw for you? Presuming there was one, of course. If there wasn't one or you don't feel comfortable divulging, I understand.

[Leftitinmysnood]

Welcome! I'd like to hear more about your hell day with Lindvall. Was it his betrothal seminar? I spent a lot of time with Lindvall followers in the year you mention. Even got to meet Maranatha and Matthew Chapman and a whole lot of their kids.

Funny, hanging around with really fundie men did the opposite of convincing me that men were superior to women.

[EowynW]

Did you ever go to the big ATI conference in TN? My husband has told me stories about those and meeting Gothard. 

[SrMaryEloquentia]

Welcome, @Nolongeroppressed8.4 And thank you for taking the time to post here! 

Modest fashion bloggers were my gateway fundies, so I‘m really interested in ATI‘s very specific dress code. How did you perceive that at the time? And how did that work out practically? Where did you shop for clothes? What about brands? were you expected to sew your own skirts? Was there some sort of competition among the girls, and what would have made you „especially godly“?

[Palimpsest]

On 5/28/2019 at 5:01 PM, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

Only one truly stuck it out and defended DP (publicly and semi-privately) to the sword.... can you guess which one

Darnell.  Can I have a cookie? 

14 hours ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

Also to note: Brad Phillips brother of DPWIAT — the guy he has been using for years in Sudan to raise money for years to “fight”  has been captured but BP sent a newsletter claiming it is fake news that he was caught and guess what he needs more money to keep fighting said guy. This 2006 link is the basic start of another Phillips’ deep rabbit hole. 

https://ministrywatchman.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/film-fraud-a-phillips-family-tradition/

Yep. I have been down that rabbit hole.  Take 

As a general FYI, be very careful with the Ministry Watchman site.  As in hold your nose and poke at it with a 10 foot pole.  As we recently discussed on another thread, some of us strongly suspect it is run by a pair of Christian Reconstructionist-Theonomist-Kinists, namely Frank Vance and Peter Kershaw.  Yes, they hate VF, Sproul Jr, and Baucham, but for the wrong reasons.  They are dirty.  

That said, Brad Phillips is this guy.  https://www.persecutionproject.org/about-us.  Hold your nose and poke at this organisation with a 10 foot pole too.  Not my kind of "mission" organisation at all.   Matt Chancey is (or was) also connected to the Persecution Project.  He may be back in the US now.

[DangerNoodle]

On 5/28/2019 at 5:01 PM, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

Interestingly enough DP brother Brad was responsible for a large group of Christians in I think sudan (?) getting massacred.

holy shit! 

On 5/28/2019 at 5:01 PM, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

Yes some are still living at home at 37-38+....

My biggest question has always been about the Botkins. As beautiful, well known, and rasied to be helpmets as they they were, why did they never marry? 

Thanks for joining!

[punkiepie]

Do you have any info/stories about Kelly and Peter Bradrick?  As in, their divorce, what they are doing now, and anything about Kelly's new husband and marriage?  

Welcome to FJ!

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

21 hours ago, Dreadcrumbs said:

What was the final straw for you? Presuming there was one, of course. If there wasn't one or you don't feel comfortable divulging, I understand.

Sadly to say would be identifying. 

Lets just put it into philosophical terms. 

I got angry that men get a pass to be porn-hounds, sex-fiends, aggressive or passive aggressive, mentally and/or spiritually abusive (and who knows, I know one VF man aka part of the San Antonio group who actually spanked his wife for insubordination in front of a guest ...) ... and women are considered house slaves, incapable of doing anything but risking their lives to deliver too many children too quickly. Read the Bible and you’ll find Jacob didn’t put 12 kids into one woman. He had 4. But when DPWIAT could have just run with the “I’m a modern-day Biblical patriarch” he chose instead to vilify and destroy the life of a girl he had groomed and manipulated for decade+. 

I was raised in this and while I did fall into some of the traps, ultimately I was never manageable because I did not fully believe the submission aspect. And submission is an absolute requirement — a prerequisite — to this life. Eventually because my mind was open enough, everything hypocritical started to glare at me and the absolute idiocy of their (let’s face it) anti-woman movement began to eat at me til I couldn’t keep quiet. 

Man, that was opening Pandora’s box. ?

21 hours ago, Leftitinmysnood said:

Welcome! I'd like to hear more about your hell day with Lindvall. Was it his betrothal seminar? I spent a lot of time with Lindvall followers in the year you mention. Even got to meet Maranatha and Matthew Chapman and a whole lot of their kids.

Funny, hanging around with really fundie men did the opposite of convincing me that men were superior to women.

Yes, we went to a full day event while he creepily sang tunes on his stool while also preaching about how great it was his kids were not allowed to even be friends with each other and how girls should be betrothed at 13-14 to Ensure they were marked taken and not slutty through teen years — oh but teen years shouldn’t be a thing if you’ve properly collected your children’s hearts in jars like the Governor from TWD. ?

To my great woe, as I was about 12 with a very serious crush (be that as it may be in the homeschool world), my parents went on board (for a short while). The rules that had been strict were now stringent. It lasted about a year. ? I may or may not have been what they would call “rebellious.” (Again be that what it may be in a homeschool way).

 

 

 

21 hours ago, EowynW said:

Did you ever go to the big ATI conference in TN? My husband has told me stories about those and meeting Gothard. 

I was not allowed to go because my family never paid the hefty fee in order to be considered “ATI.”  Haha. But did get the great honor of hearing how families and spouses and kids should think and act and behave from a childless bachelor who lived in his mothers basement who had a sex offender brother..... (both of the multi-day seminars hosted by a local church).