Josiah and Lauren 14: Another Grand-Duggar on the Way (Miscarriage Content Warning)

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 hours ago, lizzybee said:

Losing my first pregnancy was incredibly painful and I really don't think I truly began to heal from that pain and loss until I gave birth to my son almost four years later. It was that loss that triggered my descent into fundamentalism. I was so lost and sad and I didn't know what to do with myself - and then I found 19KAC on Netflix. In my pain fog, my brain saw these people with 19 children and God had not answered my prayer to save my one child. They must be doing something God liked very much to have given them so many babies. I saw their lifestyle as an end to my pain and I forged forward full steam ahead. 

I cried so many tears and I was willing to do anything to please God so he would give me the children I wanted with all my heart. Ultimately, I did have children and my heart began to heal and I began to wake up from the fog as well. I still struggle with fundamentalist ideas, every single day. But the healing for the wound of that loss didn't happen until I held my first born in my arms. I held that first loss as my baby. I used to cry and repeat over and over 'I want my baby, I want my baby." I know these things are felt by individuals differently than my experience. Lauren's grieving looks like it hit her much like mine. 

In February, I had another loss and it was very different. I think it had everything to do with the fact that I have two living children. I cried for about two weeks, and then we went to do one last ultrasound to confirm. Before we did it, I got down on my face in the attached bathroom to the US room, and I said "God you've got to get me through this, I can't face this." And I swear to you a peace came over me and it hasn't left me since. I have only cried a couple of times since then and I know I'm fully at peace with that loss. I think the tenderness of the first felt like a locked door to somewhere I desperately felt I needed to go and this one didn't feel that way. Yes, I wanted both of those babies. I wanted them so much. The first was definitely the hardest loss even though I was further into the pregnancy with the second. 

I needed those "if you've got a baby in Heaven, you're a mother" affirmations. I clung to them because I wasn't sure if I was ever going to be a mother any other way. Lauren's baby isn't on the outside yet, and thus it may take more time for her to fully heal from the devastation she felt in losing the first. She may be terrified every day this one will go too. It's very likely she is. I was. When I finally got my son's positive pregnancy test, I was afraid to move lest something happen to him! We all grieve differently and yes, she probably is emphasizing her pro-life feelings here too, but I don't think it's predominantly a political thing. I think it's emotional because that baby was every bit as important to her as the one coming is now. I think she'll calm down with it as she holds this one and develops a connection with them. It will ease the pain and the defensive desire to emphasize the life lost that was so important to her will wane in comparison to the joy she'll feel to be a mother to a living child. It'll just take time. 

I am so sorry you had to go through that - thank you for sharing such a beautifully written testiment.

[jillsdopplerofdoom]

I am so sorry to every one of you who has lost a baby.

I saw nothing wrong with the post. It must be awful for Lauren; knowing that she will never be able to give birth to him, hold him in her arms or watch him grow up. It's just the way she is grieving. Grief is a natural, personal and different journey for everyone. If SiRen decide to mention their baby throughout their pregnancy and their parenthood journey then that is their decision. I'm sure he will be mentioned in the next season of CO too. I hope that Lauren and Josiah are able to find peace in some way though as she is clearly still heartbroken. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by jillsdopplerofdoom

[LacyMay]

17 hours ago, nickelodeon said:

is the same logic that lets Anna stand outside of hospitals yelling "I love you, mama" at anyone who looks like they might be considering an abortion.

What the what now? I clearly missed that. When/where/what was this???

[lumpentheologie]

I struggle with this. On the one hand I don't want to police anyone's grief. On the other hand if you're actively working to take away women's control of their own bodies, it's fair to interpret whatever else you say in light of that. It seems naive to me to see no political agenda in their pregnancy posts. 

[backyard sylph]

I can grieve sincerely for other people's losses while still finding Lauren spooky and superstitious and possibly in need of some coaching or talk therapy. My thoughts on her are not my thoughts on anyone else. 

I hope for at least the child's sake and the subsequent children's sakes that she focuses on them as individuals, not part of a collective that included non-viable pregnancies. 

And that is not to say I don't understand about the angel baby concept. In fact, though it wouldn't have been my way, it strikes me as a healthier view than continuing to think they are part of your corporeal life beyond the very natural fear you will have at the beginning of each pregnancy. 

In another respect, I was treated differently by my parents because of the dead newborn and 20 week miscarriage between my brothers and me, especially since my birth almost killed us both. It's nice to be wanted that much but it was a little bit of a burden and my brothers were at least mildly resentful of it when they were young. One of them was sorta cruel to me until he grew up, though he has more than made up for it since. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by backyard sylph
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[Irishy]

14 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

I struggle with this. On the one hand I don't want to police anyone's grief. On the other hand if you're actively working to take away women's control of their own bodies, it's fair to interpret whatever else you say in light of that. It seems naive to me to see no political agenda in their pregnancy posts. 

Yes. Where there’s an agenda, please stop it.

I have witnessed firsthand two friends of my daughter talk about their siblings in heaven. One a lost twin, died around 18 weeks gestation, and the other a first baby born around 22 weeks. Both girls speak regularly about these sibs using their names and talking about how they light nightly candles for them or mum gets whole family to ask (insert name) to help them have good weather for birthday party, or get them through a situation, or visiting grave on Christmas Day. One family signs baby’s name on cards some ten years later. I understand that these things help parents grieve and keep baby alive and part of their families, but I cannot imagine how heavily it weighs on the surviving children who have never known these deceased siblings. I have no personal experience of miscarriage or loss so I don’t want to judge, but the regularity of the mentions (by my daughters friends) often shock me. I’m not sure it’s fair to these children. 

[VelociRapture]

13 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

I struggle with this. On the one hand I don't want to police anyone's grief. On the other hand if you're actively working to take away women's control of their own bodies, it's fair to interpret whatever else you say in light of that. It seems naive to me to see no political agenda in their pregnancy posts. 

This is how I’m feeling. I’ve had a loss. I know how badly it can suck to deal with and how horrible it can be to go through a pregnancy after that. The constant anxiety and worrying can be overwhelming and I’m sympathetic to anyone who might be dealing with that. But they’ve made their views on abortion perfectly clear and I honestly don’t think there’s anything wrong with people questioning their motives at this point for that reason. Flat out accusing them is something I’m not comfortable with at this point because the loss still is rather fresh and they’re likely scared about whether this pregnancy will go to term, but if they continue putting a major emphasis on the pregnancy they lost - at the expense of the children they do have - then that’s another story entirely. 

[LittleOwl]

6 minutes ago, Irishy said:

I cannot imagine how heavily it weighs on the surviving children who have never known these deceased siblings.

I'm a child following the death of a sibling, and never living up to my "perfect" sister in my mother's eyes was an unbearable burden.  

[HarleyQuinn]

I don't want to police grief either, but she has a clear agenda in speaking about her what, 6 week miscarriage as if she lost a near term baby. And including it in Grandma Mary's post, that she's with her Asa in Heaven but no mention of her husband. I'm just rubbed the wrong way. 

[LoonyLovegood]

While I am very much pro-choice, I have to say I have to sort of respect Lauren and Josiah’s position... what I mean, is that this is exactly why they are so anti-choice, because they value the life of the “baby” from conception. At least they are consistent. With this family’s values, it’s strange to me that J&M and J&A don’t include their losses in their numbers. But don’t get me wrong, I don’t think their beliefs should allow them to legislate into women’s bodies and if they want to decrease abortion there are much more effective ways, such as free access to birth control and better social support for mothers and born children...but we know they’ll never advocate for any of that.... ?

[OutoftheShadows]

I have an acquaintance who lost her full term baby. The child died in utero just a few days before her due date (I’m not sure of the reason, or if they even ever determined it for sure). By the time the baby was delivered she was already beginning to decay, but they took some very carefully staged professional photos, all b&w, to remember her by. Tragic, to be sure. It was an awful time. I don’t mean to make light of the situation in any way. 

My issue with their situation is the not letting go. I realize that everyone grieves in their own way, and as I experienced a 2nd trimester loss myself, I am not unaware of how much that can destroy a person. 

When the first birthday for this baby rolled around, they had a huge birthday party for her. Complete with a house full of guests, decorations, balloons, cake, presents, games, the works. Literally everything but the guest of honor. I can certainly understand wanting to commemorate and celebrate her, but she wasn’t actually turning one, you know? And I wonder what they did with all the many gifts? 

As time has gone on, they have had two more daughters, normal and healthy in every way. The girls are young yet, about 3 and 5, I think. They had the cremated remains of the first daughter put into a teddy bear, and dressed it in a pink dress with a big bow headband. They carry that bear with them everywhere. It’s in every family photo. It seems perfectly appropriate to me for the family to remember and talk about the first baby, but the carrying the bear filled with ashes everywhere and including it in every picture just weirds me out. Don’t forget to grab your sister and make sure she gets in the photo too! It feels like it would be a burden of unnecessary grief on the two girls. Like, yes, she was their sister, and it’s certainly ok and healthy to talk about her, but isn’t there a letting go process? Why saddle those little girls with that?  I adored my stepfather with every fiber of my being, but I don’t carry his urn around with me. To me, it smacks of an unhealthy mental process. 

Am I being cold and uncaring? 

Edited June 19, 2019 by OutoftheShadows

[Sullie06]

3 hours ago, Irishy said:

Yes. Where there’s an agenda, please stop it.

I have witnessed firsthand two friends of my daughter talk about their siblings in heaven. One a lost twin, died around 18 weeks gestation, and the other a first baby born around 22 weeks. Both girls speak regularly about these sibs using their names and talking about how they light nightly candles for them or mum gets whole family to ask (insert name) to help them have good weather for birthday party, or get them through a situation, or visiting grave on Christmas Day. One family signs baby’s name on cards some ten years later. I understand that these things help parents grieve and keep baby alive and part of their families, but I cannot imagine how heavily it weighs on the surviving children who have never known these deceased siblings. I have no personal experience of miscarriage or loss so I don’t want to judge, but the regularity of the mentions (by my daughters friends) often shock me. I’m not sure it’s fair to these children. 

My older sister was born at 25 weeks in 1981, she lived just over two days but at 1 pound 5 oz there wasn't much they could do at the time. My mother did not share her story with us until we were pre-teenagers. I personally am happy that she chose to wait until we were old enough to understand and process her and my father's loss before she told us. I couldn't imagine growing up and trying to understand all of that as a child. Or trying to live in the shadow of a sibling I never knew and would never live up to.  I know everyone grieves differently but I couldn't imagine if they had signed her name to our Christmas cards, or carried her ashes around  or things like that.

Edited June 19, 2019 by Sullie06

[nickelodeon]

I'm grateful for the honesty and vulnerability that people are bringing to this conversation.

However, I feel like when we're discussing a teenager describing how her miscarried baby is in the arms of Jesus, there should be room for both empathy and the admission that these people are deep in fundamentalism. Both are conversations worth having and work into the FJ thesis of "discussing the damage caused by fundamentalists." Lauren and Josiah are enmeshed in a religion where highly public, politicized mourning for unborn babies is central to their praxis (eg. all the fundies posting about New York's Reproductive Health Act earlier this year). This influences the way they're choosing to frame their pain.  This is not a cruel theory, it's interpreting their statements in their immediate context.

8 hours ago, LacyMay said:

What the what now? I clearly missed that. When/where/what was this???

This was in a post on Anna's twitter earlier this year! I think we talked about it in the Smuggar thread.

[HermioneSparrow]

3 hours ago, LoonyLovegood said:

While I am very much pro-choice, I have to say I have to sort of respect Lauren and Josiah’s position... what I mean, is that this is exactly why they are so anti-choice, because they value the life of the “baby” from conception. At least they are consistent. With this family’s values, it’s strange to me that J&M and J&A don’t include their losses in their numbers. But don’t get me wrong, I don’t think their beliefs should allow them to legislate into women’s bodies and if they want to decrease abortion there are much more effective ways, such as free access to birth control and better social support for mothers and born children...but we know they’ll never advocate for any of that.... ?

Still... I bet they won't advocate for adoption, adopt or foster kids... When they do that I'll applaud them.

[LoonyLovegood]

3 hours ago, HermioneSparrow said:

Still... I bet they won't advocate for adoption, adopt or foster kids... When they do that I'll applaud them.

Oh, I’m sure they won’t either!

[NakedKnees]

These are really touching, personal experiences here and a big thank you to everyone who has shared them. A surprising amount of what I know about miscarriage comes from FJ. 

I'm not an expert on grief, but I do wonder if growing up with grief from the point of birth is different from how we experience grief when it "strikes" once we're already older. If it's just a regular part of life, it may be less heavy, sad, or traumatic for the person experiencing it. Or at least different. I'd be curious about whether there's much research surrounding this.

I do worry a bit about the day the decedent's name stops being included on cards, or the big birthday parties for them stop, or the family doesn't want to include the teddy bear with ashes on outings any more. Hopefully it's a peaceful change that everyone is ready for, but I would bet that it's a change that's going to happen sooner or later regardless.

This just echoes back to what got us here in the first place: how will Lauren and Josiah publicly regard their miscarried baby in 6 months, or 2 years, or 10 years? There are clearly a billion different ways to handle that. I think the term "Angel Baby" or including the miscarried baby on things like Instagram bios but not supermarket check-out small talk will likely be their style.

As always, a big "booooo" to the pro-life movement. I personally am extremely pro-choice but don't have very traditionally "pro-choice" opinions on when life begins and that type of thing, so a part of me wants to give Josiah and Lauren the benefit of the doubt. People are complex... but, I have a nagging feeling that the personal is political and there is a thread of pro-life thought throughout the way they've publicized their loss. It would be awful to be wrong about that though, so I'll leave it at that.

[feministxtian]

My parents lost a child to prematurity about 2 1/2 years after I was born. Here's the kicker...he was a boy...the boy my mother desperately wanted when she was pregnant with me. I think that contributed to her abusive behavior towards me growing up (not an excuse, an explanation). She really lost her shit when I had 2 sons after my daughter. I'll never forget what she said when we told her I was pregnant with #1 son..."is it too late to get an abortion". His conception/birth was after a late first trimester miscarriage that about crushed me. I still think about that from time to time, especially on the due date, even though it was like 33 years ago. I wonder...girl or boy? What they would have looked like, what would they have grown up to be. The heart never forgets. There is a tiny corner of my heart reserved for that baby. I'll never forget crying "I want my baby back". 

If someone thinks that's weird or disordered, so be it. As I've learned over the years, there's no right or wrong way to grieve. 

[Vivi_music]

13 hours ago, LoonyLovegood said:

While I am very much pro-choice, I have to say I have to sort of respect Lauren and Josiah’s position... what I mean, is that this is exactly why they are so anti-choice, because they value the life of the “baby” from conception. At least they are consistent. With this family’s values, it’s strange to me that J&M and J&A don’t include their losses in their numbers. But don’t get me wrong, I don’t think their beliefs should allow them to legislate into women’s bodies and if they want to decrease abortion there are much more effective ways, such as free access to birth control and better social support for mothers and born children...but we know they’ll never advocate for any of that.... ?

I understand what you are saying when you mean they are ''consistent'' in their beliefs that life starts at conception. But these people are more than just anti-abortion. If their main goal was to reduce the numbers of abortions of course it would be logical for them to support access to birth control, social support, etc. But that is not their point.

At least from a few years reading here, I sense it goes beyond that. For me, these fundies want to control women's sexuality and life choices. I think in their perfect world, intercourse should be done within the bounds of a Christian mariage, for the purpose of having children in the name of the Lord. Nothing else. In this mindset, birth control should not even exist (maybe except for medical purposes to help safe the mother or limit her pregnancies if she is in a life threatening situation). And the same with abortion. So of course it is an abomination in their eyes to terminate a pregnancy because it is more than just preventing.

I feel in their mind, if women who had abortions had followed the right path God had for them in the first place (getting married young, finding a husband to provide, being a submissive helpmeet, being a SAHM, etc.); they wouldn't be in the situation of needing an abortion. They basically want women to follow the ''good christian'' submissive path and stay there. No agency on your life and your body (and you should be happy about that because it is your godly role as a women).

That's why I won't cut these people any slack. Because for them it is more than being pro-life. It is about policing people's lives.

[LoonyLovegood]

2 minutes ago, Vivi_music said:

I understand what you are saying when you mean they are ''consistent'' in their beliefs that life starts at conception. But these people are more than just anti-abortion. If their main goal was to reduce the numbers of abortions of course it would be logical for them to support access to birth control, social support, etc. But that is not their point.

At least from a few years reading here, I sense it goes beyond that. For me, these fundies want to control women's sexuality and life choices. I think in their perfect world, intercourse should be done within the bounds of a Christian mariage, for the purpose of having children in the name of the Lord. Nothing else. In this mindset, birth control should not even exist (maybe except for medical purposes to help safe the mother or limit her pregnancies if she is in a life threatening situation). And the same with abortion. So of course it is an abomination in their eyes to terminate a pregnancy because it is more than just preventing.

I feel in their mind, if women who had abortions had followed the right path God had for them in the first place (getting married young, finding a husband to provide, being a submissive helpmeet, being a SAHM, etc.); they wouldn't be in the situation of needing an abortion. They basically want women to follow the ''good christian'' submissive path and stay there. No agency on your life and your body (and you should be happy about that because it is your godly role as a women).

That's why I won't cut these people any slack. Because for them it is more than being pro-life. It is about policing people's lives.

Oh, I don’t disagree with you that they go far beyond even the average pro life person, nor do I “cut them slack” for their dangerous beliefs. I’m just saying with their beliefs being what they are, their response to the miscarriage makes a ton of sense... that’s all, really.

Having gone through a missed miscarriage, I do have sympathy for the pain they are feeling, however. And my pregnancy after that was terrifying because I worried I would lose it, too. Reading the many stories others have posted about their losses, you can really see the spectrum of responses to a pregnancy loss. I, like others, will be interested to see how/if their language about how many children and the miscarriage changes once they have a live baby. My grief over my loss was definitely decreased after I had my youngest, especially knowing I wouldn’t have him had I not lost that pregnancy. However, I know many mothers have different experiences and the later in pregnancy the loss, typically the greater grief experienced.

[VelociRapture]

59 minutes ago, NakedKnees said:

These are really touching, personal experiences here and a big thank you to everyone who has shared them. A surprising amount of what I know about miscarriage comes from FJ. 

I'm not an expert on grief, but I do wonder if growing up with grief from the point of birth is different from how we experience grief when it "strikes" once we're already older. If it's just a regular part of life, it may be less heavy, sad, or traumatic for the person experiencing it. Or at least different. I'd be curious about whether there's much research surrounding this.

I do worry a bit about the day the decedent's name stops being included on cards, or the big birthday parties for them stop, or the family doesn't want to include the teddy bear with ashes on outings any more. Hopefully it's a peaceful change that everyone is ready for, but I would bet that it's a change that's going to happen sooner or later regardless.

This just echoes back to what got us here in the first place: how will Lauren and Josiah publicly regard their miscarried baby in 6 months, or 2 years, or 10 years? There are clearly a billion different ways to handle that. I think the term "Angel Baby" or including the miscarried baby on things like Instagram bios but not supermarket check-out small talk will likely be their style.

As always, a big "booooo" to the pro-life movement. I personally am extremely pro-choice but don't have very traditionally "pro-choice" opinions on when life begins and that type of thing, so a part of me wants to give Josiah and Lauren the benefit of the doubt. People are complex... but, I have a nagging feeling that the personal is political and there is a thread of pro-life thought throughout the way they've publicized their loss. It would be awful to be wrong about that though, so I'll leave it at that.

You might have a point. My first real experience with death came two weeks before I turned five when my Aunt died. It was a sudden loss for my siblings and I to deal with at a young age and a really rather traumatic one. I still have trouble talking about it without getting emotional and it's been 26 years since she died. 

I won’t lie, I had a difficult time for a while after experiencing my miscarriage. I think part of that was because it was my first pregnancy and we were scared we’d find out we wouldn’t be able to have kids. I felt very sad and cried off and on for about a month afterwards. Having a dog who demanded my attention and to be walked absolutely helped because I wasn’t able to just sit at home thinking about what I experienced. Having a healthy daughter absolutely helped me with the healing process too and time did as well. These days I don’t really think about my loss that much because I’m too busy being grateful for my daughter and the son I’m expecting in the Fall. 

My therapist told me recently that there was a silver lining in my Aunt’s death and that was the fact that it gave me and my siblings a blueprint for handling grief. We were very young - my brother didn’t turn 3 until three months after her death - but we were fortunate to have older family members who showed us how to mourn with grace, that grief can look differently for everyone, and who showed us how it can change over the course of time. So maybe I was better equipped in some ways to eventually work through my grief over my miscarriage than someone else might be because I already had a lot of experience with another significant and traumatic loss. 

[AliceInFundyland]

@VelociRapture

My first experience with loss was also my aunt (dad's sister). It was really sad. I've spoken of this before, but she had a genetic condition where she basically deteriorated steadily until she passed at 38. Mentally she was all there. I remember how much joy she had when my little brother and I visited her in the various places she stayed at.

But - my dad's cousins also had this condition and the entire thing was not handled well within the family. So I was 8, and it was very confusing. It was the first time I had any experience with our relationship with Jewish religious traditions.

It definitely remains important and imprinted. And sad.

[lumpentheologie]

4 hours ago, Vivi_music said:

At least from a few years reading here, I sense it goes beyond that. For me, these fundies want to control women's sexuality and life choices. I think in their perfect world, intercourse should be done within the bounds of a Christian mariage, for the purpose of having children in the name of the Lord. Nothing else. In this mindset, birth control should not even exist (maybe except for medical purposes to help safe the mother or limit her pregnancies if she is in a life threatening situation). And the same with abortion. So of course it is an abomination in their eyes to terminate a pregnancy because it is more than just preventing.

I completely agree.  I also wonder what they think about the fact that a large percentage of women who get abortions are married. But they don't want any more kids, or can't afford them, or their marriage is unstable or abusive. What are these women supposed to do?  Adoption is pretty much entirely socially unacceptable in this case.  I suppose they're just supposed to accept that God's plan is not about what they want or what makes sense to them.  It's this denial of your own will and judgment (especially for women) that really scares me about fundamentalism.  

[Audrey2]

5 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

I completely agree.  I also wonder what they think about the fact that a large percentage of women who get abortions are married. But they don't want any more kids, or can't afford them, or their marriage is unstable or abusive. What are these women supposed to do? 

"Oooh," she said, absolutely gushing sarcasm, "they are just supposed to keep their legs together and not have sex."

Yeah, I don't know how they square this with the joyfully available part either.

[Cora Persephona]

9 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

I completely agree.  I also wonder what they think about the fact that a large percentage of women who get abortions are married. But they don't want any more kids, or can't afford them, or their marriage is unstable or abusive. What are these women supposed to do?  

But do they think about it? I am not in the US, but every time I see anti-abortion arguments online they seem to focus on the slutty unmarried women getting pregnant (their words, not mine, I don't care when consensual sex happens outside/inside of marriage). I haven't seen a lot of discussion regarding the married women, and usually when someone brings this up the response seems to be that they are not trusting the lord enough.

Spoiler for abortion gone wrong story

Spoiler

I've never met my aunt. I live in a former communist country where abortion was illegal until 30 years ago. Birth control was not encouraged either as you can imagine. My aunt was the fundie ideal: married young, with a child under 1 and already pregnant again. They either could not afford a second or did not want one. She had a secret, illegal abortion and then died of sepsis in her bed at home, all alone. She was about 22, I think. The fundies would say she deserved it, the lord punished her or something. I know she didn't, but my question is this: did my cousin deserve to grow up without knowing her? Did the lord also punish her already born child and existing family? 

Because of this, there is no argument that can convince me that abortion should ever be illegal again. It should be available, rare (through better access to sed ex and birth control) and safe. It should always be safe.

 

[Meggo]

5 hours ago, Audrey2 said:

"Oooh," she said, absolutely gushing sarcasm, "they are just supposed to keep their legs together and not have sex."

Yeah, I don't know how they square this with the joyfully available part either.

My parents are HARD CORE Catholics. And staunchly anti-abortion. And that is precisely what they would say. "If you don't want to get pregnant, you don't have sex. Period." 
And you certainly do NOT have sex before marriage or given anyone any indication that you might POSSIBLY be having sex before marriage. Sex is purely for the procreation of children (they also told me once kids were the punishment for sex) and if you're not down with that - don't have sex. (I don't think this is the churches stance on this now - but my parents got married in 1966). I also think they have had sex exactly for times. I have two sister and my mom had a miscarriage before my oldest sister. 

(she didn't really talk about the miscarriage - it was just "when I lost the baby")