Josiah and Lauren 14: Another Grand-Duggar on the Way (Miscarriage Content Warning)

[freshlemonade]

On 6/19/2019 at 12:02 PM, nickelodeon said:

I'm grateful for the honesty and vulnerability that people are bringing to this conversation.

However, I feel like when we're discussing a teenager describing how her miscarried baby is in the arms of Jesus, there should be room for both empathy and the admission that these people are deep in fundamentalism. Both are conversations worth having and work into the FJ thesis of "discussing the damage caused by fundamentalists." Lauren and Josiah are enmeshed in a religion where highly public, politicized mourning for unborn babies is central to their praxis (eg. all the fundies posting about New York's Reproductive Health Act earlier this year). This influences the way they're choosing to frame their pain.  This is not a cruel theory, it's interpreting their statements in their immediate context.

This was in a post on Anna's twitter earlier this year! I think we talked about it in the Smuggar thread.

Thanks for posting that link.  I tend to only see Anna's cringey, but fairly tame IG and rarely am on Twitter.  Her Twitter gives a much clearer picture of her beliefs.

On 6/8/2019 at 5:35 PM, jillsdopplerofdoom said:

The handwriting is awful, I hand better handwriting when I was in year 2 (age6/7). Michelle needs to focus on teaching her kids to write properly when she homeschools them. 

I don't think the handwriting is that bad, but I'm so interested in the use of "&" and "and" in the same sentence.  Not judging it, it just really sticks out to me.

[beepy13]

1 hour ago, freshlemonade said:

I don't think the handwriting is that bad, but I'm so interested in the use of "&" and "and" in the same sentence.  Not judging it, it just really sticks out to me.

I do that sometimes when I'm feeling lazy.

[OyToTheVey]

On 6/19/2019 at 7:45 AM, backyard sylph said:

In another respect, I was treated differently by my parents because of the dead newborn and 20 week miscarriage between my brothers and me, especially since my birth almost killed us both. It's nice to be wanted that much but it was a little bit of a burden and my brothers were at least mildly resentful of it when they were young. One of them was sorta cruel to me until he grew up, though he has more than made up for it since. 

I'm an only child. Took my parents 5 years to conceive and my birth almost killed both of us too. I understand your burden. Sometimes it's quite overwhelming. I can tell I'm treated differently. Guilt is also a biggie in my family. I'm up to my neck in guilt.

[Kayleigh83]

On 6/19/2019 at 7:36 PM, Vivi_music said:

I understand what you are saying when you mean they are ''consistent'' in their beliefs that life starts at conception. But these people are more than just anti-abortion. If their main goal was to reduce the numbers of abortions of course it would be logical for them to support access to birth control, social support, etc. But that is not their point.

At least from a few years reading here, I sense it goes beyond that. For me, these fundies want to control women's sexuality and life choices. I think in their perfect world, intercourse should be done within the bounds of a Christian mariage, for the purpose of having children in the name of the Lord. Nothing else. In this mindset, birth control should not even exist (maybe except for medical purposes to help safe the mother or limit her pregnancies if she is in a life threatening situation). And the same with abortion. So of course it is an abomination in their eyes to terminate a pregnancy because it is more than just preventing.

I feel in their mind, if women who had abortions had followed the right path God had for them in the first place (getting married young, finding a husband to provide, being a submissive helpmeet, being a SAHM, etc.); they wouldn't be in the situation of needing an abortion. They basically want women to follow the ''good christian'' submissive path and stay there. No agency on your life and your body (and you should be happy about that because it is your godly role as a women).

That's why I won't cut these people any slack. Because for them it is more than being pro-life. It is about policing people's lives.

So right! I am pro choice, but would prefer abortion was needed less frequently due to how traumatic it can be for women, whether the pregnancy was wanted or not ( regardless of this I do still recognize that there will always be situations were safe and legal abortion access is absolutely required,  and whether it is should it be between a woman and her doctor).

The only way to do that is having strong support networks for preventative contraception and social supports. But when you point that out to many pro lifers, you get at the heart of what they really want - control over women’s lives and forcing their beliefs on others. There really is this smug sense of “we have the right way figured out, and if you’d just live exactly like us everything will be fine”.

[Dandruff]

4 hours ago, Kayleigh83 said:

So right! I am pro choice, but would prefer abortion was needed less frequently due to how traumatic it can be for women, whether the pregnancy was wanted or not ( regardless of this I do still recognize that there will always be situations were safe and legal abortion access is absolutely required,  and whether it is should it be between a woman and her doctor).

The only way to do that is having strong support networks for preventative contraception and social supports. But when you point that out to many pro lifers, you get at the heart of what they really want - control over women’s lives and forcing their beliefs on others. There really is this smug sense of “we have the right way figured out, and if you’d just live exactly like us everything will be fine”.

I hope the hardcore anti-choice fundies, upon their arrival at the pearly gates, are presented with a list of aborted embryos that could have been avoided by access to effective birth control.

I also wish abortion could be minimized (without infringing upon the rights and health of the women involved).

[Kayleigh83]

4 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

I hope the hardcore anti-choice fundies, upon their arrival at the pearly gates, are presented with a list of aborted embryos that could have been avoided by access to effective birth control.

I also wish abortion could be minimized (without infringing upon the rights and health of the women involved).

Yup! I believe so many people have abortions for unwanted pregnancies because of lack of sex education and contraception - thanks to conservatives. And so many pregnancies are unwanted because women feel socially and financially unable to raise the child when they may have felt differently about an unexpected pregnancy having had the right social supports in place. But they don’t - thanks to conservatives. They create these social issues then heap judgment on those who have to suffer and cope with them. And that is some seriously smug bullshit.

[crancraz]

And so many women have abortions because of the patriarchy. We are conditioned to please men and often aren’t able to say no, especially in abusive and manipulative relationships. Men cannot be left out of the preventive abortion/pregnancy equations. 100% of pregnancies are caused by male ejaculation. Men are not owed unprotected sex (or sex at all). Women say yes to things all the time because it’s easier to “give in” than put up a fight. This happens within marriage as well as non-marital relationships. 

I have had an abortion and know dozens and dozens of people that have them because of some activism I did in the past. Sometimes yes, pregnancy occurred because a person lacked access to reliable birth control in a timely manner. Sometimes (like in my case) it was birth control failure and no desire to parent at the time. And in an overwhelming number of people, pregnancy occurred because of male pressure to have sex without protection because he “needed it” or “just this once” or unsafe relationships where the pregnant person didn’t feel they had agency to say no at the time for whatever reason. 

I just think lowering rates of unintended pregnancies involves both parties and more than access to education and birth control (although VITALLY important). It also involves dismantling the patriarchy. 

Edited June 25, 2019 by crancraz

[tabitha2]

Except that the overwhelming amount of women  I know enthusiastically instigate sex  as well.  That’s not patriarchy that’s just thirsty as hell and not thinking about precautions at all on either side.

[crancraz]

37 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

Except that the overwhelming amount of women  I know enthusiastically instigate sex  as well.  That’s not patriarchy that’s just thirsty as hell and not thinking about precautions at all on either side.

Thank heavens women instigate healthy sexual relationships!! I’m not saying that women shouldn’t be responsible for sex and their own health. But when you look at how unplanned pregnancy is discussed, it is always within the context of blaming the woman, as if she alone was responsible. And that’s the patriarchy talking. 

Abortion is a very complex topic that evades simplicity and I simply want to point out that men are equally responsible for unplanned pregnancy and yet so often (especially in the context of fundamentalism), women alone are vilified. 

[BachelorToTheRapture]

3 hours ago, crancraz said:

And so many women have abortions because of the patriarchy. We are conditioned to please men and often aren’t able to say no, especially in abusive and manipulative relationships. Men cannot be left out of the preventive abortion/pregnancy equations. 100% of pregnancies are caused by male ejaculation. Men are not owed unprotected sex (or sex at all). Women say yes to things all the time because it’s easier to “give in” than put up a fight. This happens within marriage as well as non-marital relationships. 

I have had an abortion and know dozens and dozens of people that have them because of some activism I did in the past. Sometimes yes, pregnancy occurred because a person lacked access to reliable birth control in a timely manner. Sometimes (like in my case) it was birth control failure and no desire to parent at the time. And in an overwhelming number of people, pregnancy occurred because of male pressure to have sex without protection because he “needed it” or “just this once” or unsafe relationships where the pregnant person didn’t feel they had agency to say no at the time for whatever reason. 

I just think lowering rates of unintended pregnancies involves both parties and more than access to education and birth control (although VITALLY important). It also involves dismantling the patriarchy. 

I'd also like to mention men who attempt to get someone pregnant to trap her or prevent her from leaving, sometimes by manipulating birth control (such as a hole in a condom), or lying about fertility/vasectomies. 

[Smee]

Yes, the approach of “well it’s her fault she got pregnant, she shouldn’t have had unprotected sex” tends to totally ignore all the men who don’t want to be fathers and yet somehow don’t insist on using a condom. 

[luv2laugh]

12 hours ago, Kayleigh83 said:

So right! I am pro choice, but would prefer abortion was needed less frequently due to how traumatic it can be for women, whether the pregnancy was wanted or not ( regardless of this I do still recognize that there will always be situations were safe and legal abortion access is absolutely required,  and whether it is should it be between a woman and her doctor).

The only way to do that is having strong support networks for preventative contraception and social supports. But when you point that out to many pro lifers, you get at the heart of what they really want - control over women’s lives and forcing their beliefs on others. There really is this smug sense of “we have the right way figured out, and if you’d just live exactly like us everything will be fine”.

I’ve been told that pro-life people fear monger by telling women an abortion will traumatize them. 

I’m not saying they do or don’t but it’s well known they do tell women this. 

On 6/19/2019 at 6:35 AM, lumpentheologie said:

I struggle with this. On the one hand I don't want to police anyone's grief. On the other hand if you're actively working to take away women's control of their own bodies, it's fair to interpret whatever else you say in light of that. It seems naive to me to see no political agenda in their pregnancy posts. 

I completely agree. What Lauren is doing is very obvious and calculated. She is preaching to the lost, pro-choice on Instagram as part of “the family’s ministry”, per Austin’s words. 

Edited June 25, 2019 by luv2laugh

[luv2laugh]

On 6/19/2019 at 7:15 AM, HarleyQuinn said:

I don't want to police grief either, but she has a clear agenda in speaking about her what, 6 week miscarriage as if she lost a near term baby. And including it in Grandma Mary's post, that she's with her Asa in Heaven but no mention of her husband. I'm just rubbed the wrong way. 

Completely agree. Lauren had no right to talk about her 6 week miscarriage as if it was equivalent to the loss of Grandma Mary. It was in poor taste and was not her place. She was making a point that, in her view, the moment of conception = an adult human being.

I think some of us here are forgetting the purpose of Lauren’s Instagram and her audience. Lauren is not your best friend, sister, daughter, or cousin on Facebook/Instagram. Duggar Instagrams serve as Duggar PR. I do not judge the way someone grieves however, Lauren make these statements on her public Instagram for (400k?) followers as “part of the family’s ministry”.

For this reason, do I believe she is being sincere? No, I do not.

As is the case in all matters of PR (whether the PR is outsourced to a professional or completed by a Duggar) it’s strategic.

Keep in mind, how the Duggars talk to a camera or write to their audience is not how they speak and write amongst each other. They have an agenda. Now, this is just how I see it but I still do feel sorry for Lauren’s loss and wouldn’t judge the way anyone grieves but she’s part of the Duggar PR machine.

Edited June 25, 2019 by luv2laugh

[Kayleigh83]

45 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

I’ve been told that pro-life people fear monger by telling women an abortion will traumatize them. 

I’m not saying they do or don’t but it’s well known they do tell women this. 

And you know what, I’m a lot of cases they could be right - not that they are sharing that “insight” with any kind of good motivations mind you.

But those women looking for abortions probably know that having the child could be just as, if not more, traumatic for them and their lives, or they wouldn’t be in the situation of seeking an abortion in the first place.

Do I think it’s a weighty choice that could have emotional impact? Definitely - but it’s still a woman’s choice. The last thing she needs is propagandists highlighting the impacts of an already extremely difficult choice to further their own agenda and control over women. Makes me even angrier that they would go that far in the emotional manipulation of women who need nothing but love and support.

[SassyPants]

36 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

Completely agree. Lauren had no right to talk about her 6 week miscarriage as if it was equivalent to the loss of Grandma Mary. It was in poor taste and was not her place. She was making a point that, in her view, the moment of conception = an adult human being.

 

I don’t follow Lauren, but did she really do this? I know that she is a Very sheltered, inexperienced, young 20? YO, but did she really talk about her miscarriage in a post about GMM’s death? These folks really have zero clue, and no appropriate boundaries.

[just_ordinary]

Reading here makes me wonder how the statistics in my country are. Because I would guess most abortions would be done due to missed abortions or serious health problems of mother/and nor embryo/fetus. I think abortions of an Uups pregnancy are not the majority but I might be wrong. Not that it matters. But I think most pro-life freaks really have no idea what they are talking about.

And while contraception is definitely the responsibility of both sexual encounters (because both become parents for the rest of their lives) it’s the women who carry the child and who will have to undergo an abortion or birth. Therefore stressing the importance of contraception to our daughters will always be a tad more important. And we should try to raise them to speak up for themselves and don’t get pressured into not using protection (or doing things they don’t want). In my experience girls/women who have a more active approach to sex are often self confident enough to insist on protection. Because they feel like they steer the ship. Simultaneously we need to raise boys who know that birth control (and STDS) are their responsibilities too and that using condoms is the way to go for them to make sure they are doing their part. Stressing the condoms - as they are the only contraception and protection from STDS they can use themselves (as far as I am aware. If there are different ways please let me know.)

Edited June 25, 2019 by just_ordinary

[LacyMay]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

I don’t follow Lauren, but did she really do this? I know that she is a Very sheltered, inexperienced, young 20? YO, but did she really talk about her miscarriage in a post about GMM’s death? These folks really have zero clue, and no appropriate boundaries.

Unless I missed a post (which I easily could have) the only thing I think she said was something along the lines of it being sweet to know that she's with Jesus and their baby Asa in heaven. 

If this is the case tbh I can't really find much to fault in that specific reference. 1) They were likely still reeling when they wrote it and I went judge someone for grief posts. 

2) They genuinely believe that Asa is in heaven (not an uncommon belief) so to them yeah Asa is in heaven along with Grandma Mary and that probably does bring them some form of comfort. 

It doesn't mean they compare the losses or mourn them the same way (which they might, but the post doesn't explicitly imply that) just that they believe both are in heaven together. 

I can't believe I'm pseudo defending Lauren. 

 

ETA

Those discussing the impact of abortion vs carrying to term and carrying to term after being denied an abortion may find this article to be of interest 

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/d3nk7q/turnaway-study-shows-people-are-already-dying-from-being-denied-abortions?fbclid=IwAR1NbL3ftL6IJEGPXkpv2ZaAZMMGcb75B1xlvFT001joCHRVxnyEf2ibAaE

Edited June 25, 2019 by LacyMay

[luv2laugh]

11 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

Reading here makes me wonder how the statistics in my country are. Because I would guess most abortions would be done due to missed abortions or serious health problems of mother/and nor embryo/fetus. I think abortions of an Uups pregnancy are not the majority but I might be wrong. Not that it matters. But I think most pro-life freaks really have no idea what they are talking about.

And while contraception is definitely the responsibility of both sexual encounters (because both become parents for the rest of their lives) it’s the women who carry the child and who will have to undergo an abortion or birth. Therefore stressing the importance of contraception to our daughters will always be a tad more important. And we should try to raise them to speak up for themselves and don’t get pressured into not using protection (or doing things they don’t want). In my experience girls/women who have a more active approach to sex are often self confident enough to insist on protection. Because they feel like they steer the ship. Simultaneously we need to raise boys who know that birth control (and STDS) are their responsibilities too and that using condoms is the way to go for them to make sure they are doing their part. Stressing the condoms - as they are the only contraception and protection from STDS they can use themselves (as far as I am aware. If there are different ways please let me know.)

Yes, in the US some women do get an abortion for an “oops” pregnancy but it’s a seriously personal matter. Some of them already have children, some are going through financial hardship, some don’t want to give birth to an abuser’s child, etc.

Honestly, it’s no one’s business but themselves and their licensed medical provider. 

I feel that if people don’t like abortion, they shouldn’t get one! Personally I do not know what I’d do but I believe in allowing people the choice to make an informed decision.

Also, pro-life people need to act out what they preach by supporting policies that help single mothers and by either fostering or adopting children in need.

Edited June 25, 2019 by luv2laugh

[lumpentheologie]

1 hour ago, just_ordinary said:

Reading here makes me wonder how the statistics in my country are. Because I would guess most abortions would be done due to missed abortions or serious health problems of mother/and nor embryo/fetus. I think abortions of an Uups pregnancy are not the majority but I might be wrong. Not that it matters. But I think most pro-life freaks really have no idea what they are talking about.

I'm not totally clear what you mean by this, but if it's that most abortions aren't because of unwanted pregnancies I wonder why that would be the case.  My experience with this is US-based, but of the dozen or so friends and family members who've told me about their abortions, they've all been for unwanted pregnancies. 

[Melissa1977]

1 hour ago, just_ordinary said:

Reading here makes me wonder how the statistics in my country are

I don't know statistics in my country (free abortion here) but I read an article about abortion and it said most of women who do it are married and have 1 or several children. We use to think abortion is something that happens to young single women but it seems that married are the ones who relax about birth control. It was a bit shocking to me. 

But it was just an article, not sure how accurate it was.

[CarrotCake]

16 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

I don't know statistics in my country (free abortion here) but I read an article about abortion and it said most of women who do it are married and have 1 or several children. We use to think abortion is something that happens to young single women but it seems that married are the ones who relax about birth control. It was a bit shocking to me. 

But it was just an article, not sure how accurate it was.

Which is quite strange. The only time I had a pregnancy scare is when I was single because I was not taking my birth control as regular as I should and I did not have condoms with me. When in a relationship I know I have regular sex so I know I will need my birth control to be on point.

[VelociRapture]

32 minutes ago, CarrotCake said:

Which is quite strange. The only time I had a pregnancy scare is when I was single because I was not taking my birth control as regular as I should and I did not have condoms with me. When in a relationship I know I have regular sex so I know I will need my birth control to be on point.

Sometimes contraception fails or legitimate accidents happen. When I was three months postpartum with my daughter I was placed on the mini pill and I absolutely hated it because you had to take it at the exact same time each day for it to work. I never got my period on it, which caused me distress despite the fact that husband and I were using condoms as well to play it safe. I had my Doctor switch me back to my normal prescription a month after starting that one because I hated it so much and wanted the security of knowing my medicine was working right. I could easily see how a new mom on that medicine, or who isn’t taking birth control pills because they normally use other contraception, could get pregnant unexpectedly though - you’re already tired and stressed and so focused on keeping yourself and your baby alive that it can be very difficult to focus on anything else at times. 

There are also cases like ones already mentioned where the spouse uses pregnancy as a way to control their pregnant partner, such as purposely sabotaging contraception. Or a woman (or Transgender man) could find herself (himself) in an abusive situation where rape is involved and an unwanted pregnancy results. Or a couple could find themselves facing an unexpected pregnancy that they literally can’t afford. Or a couple could learn that a pregnancy they actually really wanted is going to result in either the death of the mother and/or child (or other heartbreaking end results) and termination becomes an option despite them never having to consider it until that point. I’ve also read the account of a woman who got pregnant with her third child, but who suffered so horribly with mental illness during the pregnancy that treatment didn’t work and the choice to terminate  ended up being the healthiest thing for her, her husband, and her family. 

Failing to remember to take your medicine or use contraception is far from the only reason a married person - or anyone - might end up seeking an abortion. 

[CarrotCake]

13 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Failing to remember to take your medicine or use contraception is far from the only reason a married person - or anyone - might end up seeking an abortion. 

Of course, but I was replying to @Melissa1977 who said that married are the ones who relax about birth control.

[Sullie06]

3 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Sometimes contraception fails or legitimate accidents happen. When I was three months postpartum with my daughter I was placed on the mini pill and I absolutely hated it because you had to take it at the exact same time each day for it to work. I never got my period on it, which caused me distress despite the fact that husband and I were using condoms as well to play it safe. I had my Doctor switch me back to my normal prescription a month after starting that one because I hated it so much and wanted the security of knowing my medicine was working right. I could easily see how a new mom on that medicine, or who isn’t taking birth control pills because they normally use other contraception, could get pregnant unexpectedly though - you’re already tired and stressed and so focused on keeping yourself and your baby alive that it can be very difficult to focus on anything else at times. 

 

This! I don't think people realize how often birth control does fail, even when doing everything right. My sister got pregnant with both of her children while on birth control. Luckily she was in a place in her life both times where her pregnancy was a very welcome surprise but things could have been different for her and that should always be her choice. 

[VBOY9977]

It’s a girl for these two. Joe and Kendra are also having a girl