Josiah and Lauren 14: Another Grand-Duggar on the Way (Miscarriage Content Warning)

[twoandthrough]

On 6/10/2019 at 1:06 AM, potato said:

I had a few friends in my graduate physics program who would take notes on tablets.  That way, they could switch between writing equations with a stylus and typing out conceptual topics.  Most of my classmates used the standard notebook and pen(cil), though.

My husband has a Bachelor's and Master's degree in Physics, and he used his Macbook the entire time and used a stylus like mentioned to take the notes that typing wouldn't allow. 

[nickelodeon]

So SiRen’s Father’s Day post. Publicly congratulating a guy who won’t meet his first kid for months on his stellar parenting is too weird for me. Thanking the guy for being a great support during pregnancy, or excited to be a future father, would be nice, but this just seems like more of their Instagram ministry testifying that ?life begins at conception? 

[Meggo]

On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 10:08 PM, Knight of Ni said:

I challenge you to do this on a laptop

 

 

witch craft! sorcery! made up letters and numbers and ... um - symbols!! witchcraft!! 

(says the English major who would be hard pressed to figure out what to do with all that --- do you solve it? Or is that the formula to ... something or other? Math is hard. Science is harder. Words for the win!) 

[OyToTheVey]

I understand it's their beliefs and I usually try to not judge understandable beliefs but I'm having trouble with the Father's Day post. Josiah isn't a parent. He's never read a bedtime story, or changed his kids diaper, or anything like that. I know they took the miscarriage really hard but IMO it's kind of a spit in real parents faces.

[justmy2cents]

Lauren's Father's Day post to Si is just so WTF. She's so glad that their children have him as a father?? Umm, how about 'I'm so glad our child will have you as their father. Even Michelle didn't include her miscarriages in every post.

[Knight of Ni]

Going back to the notes on a laptop comment. I didn’t even think about ones you could use a stylus on. I really wish I had one when I was in college but just couldn’t spend the money to get one. 

[TheMustardCardigan]

I wonder if the miscarriage will continue to be such a huge focus once the baby is born. If they keep it up their poor actual baby is going to have no identity outside of being the ~miracle solution~ to Lauren’s suffering. 

Their criteria for “great dad” must be awfully low if you can get that label by creating two embryos and that’s it. 

[VelociRapture]

58 minutes ago, TheMustardCardigan said:

I wonder if the miscarriage will continue to be such a huge focus once the baby is born. If they keep it up their poor actual baby is going to have no identity outside of being the ~miracle solution~ to Lauren’s suffering. 

Their criteria for “great dad” must be awfully low if you can get that label by creating two embryos and that’s it. 

I’m a bit torn on this one. I looked back at my Instagram and I did use somewhat similar wording in some posts while pregnant with my daughter. I was including our dog when I’d write things like, “You’re the best daddy my girls could ask for,” though. He was already a dog dad at that point... so I think I’ll give myself a pass on that. ?

Disclaimer: Having a Dog is obviously different than having a child. Velocipuppy was the biggest reason why we actually felt prepared for parenthood though - caring for her meant adjusting our lives in a way that made adjusting to parenthood a bit easier for us.

That said, I’m usually one of the first people willing to defend Siren on this topic. I don’t doubt for a moment that they were genuinely grieved by their loss, but the word choice here did strike me as a bit odd as well. I’ve mentioned that I follow Stacey Skrysak* before on Instagram. She posts on there all the time about her family’s experience with prematurity, NICU, and child loss, but I don’t find her posts as questionable as I find Siren’s posts. I think it’s because I don’t know what Stacey or her husband feel about abortion, while we absolutely know how Si and Lauren feel. I don’t get the same nagging sense that they’re pushing an anti-choice agenda like I do with Siren. I think another big part is that Stacey and her husband speak out about their experience as a way to help them heal, to help other families, and to raise awareness for the charity they run in the triplet’s honor/memory to help NICU families a bit. 

*For those who don’t know about her, Stacey is a news anchor in Illinois (midwestern US state where Barack Obama served as a Senator prior to becoming POTUS) who gave birth to triplets at 22w6d. Doctors opted to try to save the babies since they were only a day from viability, but their first daughter (Abigail) died hours later and their only son (Parker) died after two months. The sole survivor, Peyton, is a healthy almost six year old now and Stacey is due with a baby girl this August (she’s 29 weeks pregnant, which is fantastic!) It’s been a difficult pregnancy for them emotionally and mentally, but they seem to finally be feeling hopeful that this baby will make it close to term, if not full-term. 

Edited June 18, 2019 by VelociRapture

[Iamtheway]

6 hours ago, nickelodeon said:

So SiRen’s Father’s Day post. Publicly congratulating a guy who won’t meet his first kid for months on his stellar parenting is too weird for me. Thanking the guy for being a great support during pregnancy, or excited to be a future father, would be nice, but this just seems like more of their Instagram ministry testifying that ?life begins at conception? 

It is REALLY easy to be an embryo dad. Once they’re on the outside it’s much harder. Considering his role models he might not get much better at fathering then this though. 

Following their weird fundie-life-starts-at-conception-logic Mr Way and I are the proud parents of 20 children. (Take that Michelle!)

Six of them died inside me, one as an early miscarriage and five as failed ivf:s. Fourteen of them died as medical waste at the hospital, one didn’t survive the freezer, eight didn’t even make it to the freezer, four were discarded frozen without even a chance since we chose not to use them once we had Miniway, our twentieth child. I wonder what people around me would do if I started to talk about the first 19 as my children? 

Edited June 18, 2019 by Iamtheway
Can’t grammar when tired.

[Jana814]

23 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

*For those who don’t know about her, Stacey is a news anchor in Illinois (midwestern US state where Barack Obama served as a Senator prior to becoming POTUS) who gave birth to triplets at 22w6d. Doctors opted to try to save the babies since they were only a day from viability, but their first daughter (Abigail) died hours later and their only son (Parker) died after two months. The sole survivor, Peyton, is a healthy almost six year old now and Stacey is due with a baby girl this August (she’s 29 weeks pregnant, which is fantastic!) It’s been a difficult pregnancy for them emotionally and mentally, but they seem to finally be feeling hopeful that this baby will make it close to term, if not full-term. 

I just started following Stacey on Facebook. I hope she makes it to full term. 

Edited June 18, 2019 by Jana814

[Glasgowghirl]

5 hours ago, Knight of Ni said:

Going back to the notes on a laptop comment. I didn’t even think about ones you could use a stylus on. I really wish I had one when I was in college but just couldn’t spend the money to get one. 

The tablet I use at University has a smart pen with it, I usually have my lecture slides on power point but it's handy to write additional notes on the screen while the lecturer is talking, I rarely use my laptop now because my tablet is lighter and fits in my bag much better and most of the things I use my laptop for I am able to use on my tablet.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

4 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

’ve mentioned that I follow Stacey Skrysak* before on Instagram. She posts on there all the time about her family’s experience with prematurity, NICU, and child loss, but I don’t find her posts as questionable as I find Siren’s posts. I think it’s because I don’t know what Stacey or her husband feel about abortion, while we absolutely know how Si and Lauren feel. I don’t get the same nagging sense that they’re pushing an anti-choice agenda like I do with Siren. I think another big part is that Stacey and her husband speak out about their experience as a way to help them heal, to help other families, and to raise awareness for the charity they run in the triplet’s honor/memory to help NICU families a bit.

This is the first I've heard of Stacey-- I do find it pretty questionable the she is still regularly referring to her six year old as the "surviving triplet." I hope that's just on IG and not something that kid is hearing all the time IRL. That's a heavy identity to put on a kid.

[Illmarryyoujana]

53 minutes ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

This is the first I've heard of Stacey-- I do find it pretty questionable the she is still regularly referring to her six year old as the "surviving triplet." I hope that's just on IG and not something that kid is hearing all the time IRL. That's a heavy identity to put on a kid.

I recognized this story from some blogs//articles she’s written about the loss. She seems unhealthily obsessed with her children who have passed and is passing that onto her daughter. One post from a few years ago, the child would have been a 2 or 3, said that the little girl’s bedtime routine included “saying hello to her brother and sister in heaven”. That’s beyond a healthy level of grief in my opinion. In every article she calls her daughter the only survivor. I hope she has them both in therapy because it seems like a lot. 

edit it to add: I don’t expect her to ever stop aching for the children she’s lost. That’s horrible and she will grieve forever. However, she does have a daughter still on earth who doesn’t constantly need to be reminded of the siblings she shared a womb with and are no longer here to share the backseat. 

Edited June 18, 2019 by Illmarryyoujana

[ophelia]

I apologize if this has been posted before, but I'm reading through the Bontrager family blog* and realized that Lauren participated in Allisons young women retreat in 2015. http://bontragersingers.blogspot.com/2015/11/young-womens-retreat-2015-recap.html 

 

*yeah.. I know - I should probably get a life.

[Melissa1977]

I understand the trauma and the desire to honor the miscarried baby, but I think some people goes too far. Refering to the firstborn as the "second" child is wrong, the first to actually be born is the firstborn...

Erin and Chad lost 2 or 3 babies but they don't act as if Carson was the third or fourth child. Neither are they constantly talking about the miscarried babies (which I'm sure they have in their hearts). 

I'm not sure if it's a trend or couples are encouraged to grieve this way. Maybe it works. But I have doubts about how it can affect the subsequent children, especially in twin or triplets cases like Boaz Anderson.

[VelociRapture]

6 hours ago, Illmarryyoujana said:

I recognized this story from some blogs//articles she’s written about the loss. She seems unhealthily obsessed with her children who have passed and is passing that onto her daughter. One post from a few years ago, the child would have been a 2 or 3, said that the little girl’s bedtime routine included “saying hello to her brother and sister in heaven”. That’s beyond a healthy level of grief in my opinion. In every article she calls her daughter the only survivor. I hope she has them both in therapy because it seems like a lot. 

edit it to add: I don’t expect her to ever stop aching for the children she’s lost. That’s horrible and she will grieve forever. However, she does have a daughter still on earth who doesn’t constantly need to be reminded of the siblings she shared a womb with and are no longer here to share the backseat. 

Stacey has mentioned she has seen a therapist off and on over the years, which is very good considering she not only lost two children but because I believe Stacey herself also nearly died as a result of their births. She’s back in therapy right now to deal with her anxiety over this pregnancy, which I think is a great and really healthy choice. I’m not sure about whether Peyton sees a therapist or not and I’m not sure how often she refers to Peyton that way offline. It could be she uses those terms so often online so that people new to their story immediately understand what they experienced, kind of the same way the Harry Potter books always start with a recap of Harry’s backstory. She seems to use the account to mostly raise awareness for prematurity, NICU, and the charity they started - so it makes sense to me that a heavy focus would be placed on her daughter’s prematurity and the fact she was the only survivor of the three.

I won’t lie. It does make me uncomfortable at times how often she refers to Peyton in that way. I’m reluctant to judge her though because it was (and likely is) a very traumatic experience to deal with, one I thankfully have not had to go through myself. I like to think I wouldn’t do that with my own kids, but I simply can’t know if I would or not because I haven’t been in that position. If she does constantly refer to Peyton that way offline that definitely isn’t healthy. I don’t think teaching her about her siblings or talking about their deaths is necessarily a bad thing though. I think it’d almost be more unhealthy to act like it never happened. I hope they’ve managed to find a healthy balance between educating Peyton about her birth and siblings and also respecting the unique little human she is growing into outside her identity as the only survivor. 

But my main point in mentioning her was just because I don’t get the sense they’re using this experience as a way to try to push a hidden anti-choice agenda the way Lauren and Josiah seem to be. 

Edited June 18, 2019 by VelociRapture

[VelociRapture]

2 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I understand the trauma and the desire to honor the miscarried baby, but I think some people goes too far. Refering to the firstborn as the "second" child is wrong, the first to actually be born is the firstborn...

Erin and Chad lost 2 or 3 babies but they don't act as if Carson was the third or fourth child. Neither are they constantly talking about the miscarried babies (which I'm sure they have in their hearts). 

I'm not sure if it's a trend or couples are encouraged to grieve this way. Maybe it works. But I have doubts about how it can affect the subsequent children, especially in twin or triplets cases like Boaz Anderson.

I had a loss prior to having my daughter. Personally, I don’t refer to that pregnancy as our first child. I usually refer to my dog that way. Sorry Velocitoddler. ?

I’m personally a bit hesitant to judge SiRen just because everyone handles a loss differently and I try to respect that. I found that the first year after my loss was far more difficult for me than subsequent years for many reasons, despite the fact that I was overjoyed to get pregnant with and give birth to my daughter during that same time. I hope that once they have this baby that the emphasis on losing their first pregnancy starts to get toned down as they shift their focus to the child they actually have - that, thankfully, happened for me and now I rarely ever think of that first pregnancy outside conversations like this one. It’s possible they won’t though and they’ll fully incorporate this into their anti-choice narrative, at which point I’d say all bets are off and it’s absolutely fair game for criticism. 

[nickelodeon]

Yeah, my reservation is less that SiRen is mourning their miscarriage and more the pro-life logic that motors their statement. The logic that allows Josiah to be a full-time father of two before his first kid has been born is the same logic that lets Anna stand outside of hospitals yelling "I love you, mama" at anyone who looks like they might be considering an abortion.

[Illmarryyoujana]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

 I think it’d almost be more unhealthy to act like it never happened. I hope they’ve managed to find a healthy balance between educating Peyton about her birth and siblings and also respecting the unique little human she is growing into outside her identity as the only survivor. 

I don’t think she should act like it never happened. I don’t even think she should stop writing about it. I think it’s wonderful she’s so open about her grief! I’m sure she’s helped so many other parents through her story.  I just don’t like the whole “lone surviving triplet” bit and how involved she makes her daughter in the process. I don’t think a toddlers bedtime routine needs to include looking at pictures of her sister after passing. 

And yes, I know you meant to point out that she doesn’t use this as a way to be political, which is great, especially since her job is to be unbiased. I didn’t comment on that because I agree with you. 

[Daisy0322]

I have heard miscarried child referred to as angel babies by some religious people as in we have 3 children and an angel baby that didn't make it; however they tend to not bring it up unless it comes up.  I thought that was kind of nice. I ha e a friend who had a still birth and 4 live births- she does tell people she has 5 children but some how she make is very natural. I've never lost a child at any stage so I tend to just go with whatever is most comfortable for the people experiencing it but I do think it needs to be heartfelt whatever it is not for an agenda 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I wouldn’t be surprised if SiRens approach to referencing the baby they lost changed dramatically after the birth of their child.

like others I think people need to grieve however they need to grieve.

im mentioned here before I lost a baby just shy of 20 weeks.  It was extremely traumatic at the time, but  had other major losses within a very short period of time and became pregnant again within a couple weeks of losing the baby I didn’t really process it, if that’s makes sense?

and while I did grieve for my baby I lost, had that child gone to term I wouldn’t hav my youngest son and I can’t imagine life without him...grief and loss are complicated things.

[Sullie06]

I have lost two babies myself. My first pregnancy I lost at 9 weeks, then my son was born, then a loss at 12 weeks and then my daughter. I don't refer to them as my 2nd and 4th children, that would be very awkward and I would have to explain myself all the time to people who know we only have two children and honestly I don't like to talk about my miscarriages all the time. That being said I do consider them my angel babies and i have a tattoo of an sleeping angel on my foot to honor them. That is my way of keeping them with me without being overly dramatic about it. I think maybe Siren will get there but right now I think they like the attention of having a "rainbow" baby on the way. After all with 4 pregnant sister-in-laws all due at the same time their miscarriage makes their story different. 

Edited June 18, 2019 by Sullie06

[JesSky03]

A lot of this conversation is making me uncomfortable because of how judgmental some of these comments feel. I feel like this discussion has already been had and many women who have had losses have already weighed in. We don't know that Lauren or Josiah have any ulterior motives when posting about their loss. I don't think we get to decide when Josiah feels like a father- that's up to him. Maybe they will "calm down" with the miscarriage talk after they have their baby, or maybe not. My losses still weigh heavily on my heart 3+ years later. Maybe I'm sensitive to it because I'm still in my reproductive years or maybe I will always be sensitive to it. Anyway, I saw nothing wrong with the father's day post. 

Edited June 18, 2019 by JesSky03

[VelociRapture]

27 minutes ago, JesSky03 said:

A lot of this conversation is making me uncomfortable because of how judgmental some of these comments feel. I feel like this discussion has already been had and many women who have had losses have already weighed in. We don't know that Lauren or Josiah have any ulterior motives when posting about their loss. I don't think we get to decide when Josiah feels like a father- that's up to him. Maybe they will "calm own" with the miscarriage talk after they have their baby, or maybe not. My losses still weigh heavily on my heart 3+ years later. Maybe I'm sensitive to it because I'm still in my reproductive years or maybe I will always be sensitive to it. Anyway, I saw nothing wrong with the father's day post. 

I’m sorry if anything I personally said hurt you as I know very well that this can be a difficult and sensitive topic. I’m personally trying not to pass judgement on them because everyone grieves differently and not everyone will grieve the way I did. I don’t doubt at all that they’re genuinely grieved about their loss, but knowing their views on abortion rights does make me question the motive for the type of focus they’ve opted to place on their loss in their recent social media posts. Perhaps it’s just a bit of awkward word choice by a couple not entirely comfortable yet with such a public spotlight thats making me wonder that right now. 

ETA: I should say, wording that seems a bit awkward in my opinion. 

Edited June 18, 2019 by VelociRapture

[lizzybee]

Losing my first pregnancy was incredibly painful and I really don't think I truly began to heal from that pain and loss until I gave birth to my son almost four years later. It was that loss that triggered my descent into fundamentalism. I was so lost and sad and I didn't know what to do with myself - and then I found 19KAC on Netflix. In my pain fog, my brain saw these people with 19 children and God had not answered my prayer to save my one child. They must be doing something God liked very much to have given them so many babies. I saw their lifestyle as an end to my pain and I forged forward full steam ahead. 

I cried so many tears and I was willing to do anything to please God so he would give me the children I wanted with all my heart. Ultimately, I did have children and my heart began to heal and I began to wake up from the fog as well. I still struggle with fundamentalist ideas, every single day. But the healing for the wound of that loss didn't happen until I held my first born in my arms. I held that first loss as my baby. I used to cry and repeat over and over 'I want my baby, I want my baby." I know these things are felt by individuals differently than my experience. Lauren's grieving looks like it hit her much like mine. 

In February, I had another loss and it was very different. I think it had everything to do with the fact that I have two living children. I cried for about two weeks, and then we went to do one last ultrasound to confirm. Before we did it, I got down on my face in the attached bathroom to the US room, and I said "God you've got to get me through this, I can't face this." And I swear to you a peace came over me and it hasn't left me since. I have only cried a couple of times since then and I know I'm fully at peace with that loss. I think the tenderness of the first felt like a locked door to somewhere I desperately felt I needed to go and this one didn't feel that way. Yes, I wanted both of those babies. I wanted them so much. The first was definitely the hardest loss even though I was further into the pregnancy with the second. 

I needed those "if you've got a baby in Heaven, you're a mother" affirmations. I clung to them because I wasn't sure if I was ever going to be a mother any other way. Lauren's baby isn't on the outside yet, and thus it may take more time for her to fully heal from the devastation she felt in losing the first. She may be terrified every day this one will go too. It's very likely she is. I was. When I finally got my son's positive pregnancy test, I was afraid to move lest something happen to him! We all grieve differently and yes, she probably is emphasizing her pro-life feelings here too, but I don't think it's predominantly a political thing. I think it's emotional because that baby was every bit as important to her as the one coming is now. I think she'll calm down with it as she holds this one and develops a connection with them. It will ease the pain and the defensive desire to emphasize the life lost that was so important to her will wane in comparison to the joy she'll feel to be a mother to a living child. It'll just take time.