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HerNameIsBuffy

John David & Abbie 8: Schrodinger No More, Baby Passenger Onboard

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adidas
2 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Abbie is twenty something. At that age fertility is very high!!!. Fertility decreases as you approach 40, not 30. But not everybody has the same "fertility level", even at young ages.

Sorry but this is incorrect. Fertility definitely decreases around the age of 30.

From The American College of Obstetrics and Gynaecology:

https://m.acog.org/Patients/FAQs/Having-a-Baby-After-Age-35-How-Aging-Affects-Fertility-and-Pregnancy

A woman’s peak reproductive years are between the late teens and late 20s. By age 30 years, fertility (the ability to get pregnant) starts to decline. This decline becomes more rapid once you reach your mid 30s.

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viii

I dislike the narrative where Abbie is older and therefore less fertile, yet Jinger chose to wait a year before becoming pregnant. Truth is - we don’t know either situation. Maybe Abbie wants to be married for a bit before becoming a mother, or perhaps she’s having trouble. Maybe Jinger wanted to wait, or maybe she was discouraged since her wedding night because it took so long. Either way - we don’t know, and assuming one or the other just isn’t a good look. 

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Smee

JD is the Duggar boy who seemed to follow his own path a bit more than the other marrieds, still in the patriarchal cult because it benefits him, but he was less camera-happy, waited longer to get engaged and married, and seems to have other interests. Maybe it was just because she’s a little older, but Abbie seems to have come to the marriage with her own personality and interests too. I really think they’re just as likely to use NFP or some kind of birth control as say Jinger.

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VelociRapture
6 hours ago, theotherelise said:

@HerNameIsBuffy - I can't speak to that exactly and mostly I think it's weird to wish for something to happen to someone because it makes absolutely no difference what you want to happen. Especially someone you don't know because they can't even feel gratitude that you are invested in their happiness.

That said, I took a bit of a break after Joy/Austin's loss because the response really affected me personally. Everyone was over the top filled with sympathy and well wishes for them. Yet people regularly say they don't want Michaela to become pregnant. As an infertile myself, I was really emotional about how people were treating the Forsyth's situation as terribly sad meanwhile Michaela's situation is okay because it's a good thing that less babies are born into these families. The way people talk about Michaela feels really callous sometimes, especially compared to how much care and concern was shared over the Forsyths. I didn't post at all about this during the aftermath because I do think it's sad that Joy's baby died and I don't want anyone else who has gone through loss to feel like it didn't matter. But it reinforced my experiences wherein people who go through miscarriage or still birth are given an outpouring of sympathy and support while I have publicly shared my infertility for the past year and a half with very little support. (This support for loss is still a step in the right direction IMO because it didn't used to elicit any support and many still don't feel supported. Just not feeling the love where I sit!). Caveat: I'm not saying my response to this was healthy - thus my break - but it does illustrate my point.

I wonder if others do similar things by seeing themselves in the people followed here. You can understand the loneliness that a SAHD might feel and recognize in her something you've felt and as such have a hope that she might find someone, just like you hope your own loneliness will be resolved. Do I want Michael to give birth to a baby that she blanket trains and who has to follow the narrow headship mandates? No, of course not. But as a person, I empathize with her pain. I really, really get it. I don't think my feelings of sympathy toward the Keilens' situation should be viewed differently from those who empathized with the Forsyths, but they are.

But again, if I'm going to root for something, it is that they get out of the spotlight, stop forcing their beliefs on everyone, and raise their children to make their own choices. The babies will or won't happen. 

Here’s how I personally view it:

I don’t want more children born into this movement because I think it’s a highly damaging way of life to force on an innocent child. Children are still going to be born into it regardless of what I think though. I’m not happy about it, but I’m not going to wish them ill by hoping something terrible happens or by rejoicing if something goes horribly wrong as it did for Joy and Austin.

When it comes to Michael and Brandon, I do feel genuine sympathy for them. I feel badly that they are struggling with infertility and that it’s likely causing them a great deal of emotional pain, especially since they’re involved in a movement where a woman’s worth is so heavily wrapped up in her ability to have children. I can’t know what that is like for them as I’m not Fundie nor have I ever struggled with infertility, but I do feel for what they might be dealing with. I don’t take joy in their pain just as I don’t take joy in the Forsyths’ pain over losing Annabell. So many of the people we discuss here have horrid beliefs, but they’re still human beings and I can’t help but feel some compassion for them when they end up facing truly difficult circumstances, no matter what those circumstances might be.

I can’t bring myself to wish infertility on anyone, but I also don’t feel happy when innocent kids are brought into IBLP. For me, personally, the welfare of the potential innocent children has to come before the wishes of the couples hoping to have those potential children though. So I personally just settle on hoping that couples like the Keilens are able to find happiness and fulfillment in however their lives turn out, regardless of whether they ever have children or not, and I hope that the couples who do have children end up being more loving and supportive parents than I fear they might actually be. I know it’s not perfect and it’s not fair, but it’s the best compromise I’ve been able to come up with. 

(And to be very clear, this only applies to couples and families involved in harmful movements like IBLP. Loving couples not involved who are dealing with infertility have only my sympathy and heartfelt wish that they ultimately are able to build the family they hope for.)

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JustEnough
9 hours ago, theotherelise said:

@HerNameIsBuffy - I can't speak to that exactly and mostly I think it's weird to wish for something to happen to someone because it makes absolutely no difference what you want to happen. Especially someone you don't know because they can't even feel gratitude that you are invested in their happiness.

That said, I took a bit of a break after Joy/Austin's loss because the response really affected me personally. Everyone was over the top filled with sympathy and well wishes for them. Yet people regularly say they don't want Michaela to become pregnant. As an infertile myself, I was really emotional about how people were treating the Forsyth's situation as terribly sad meanwhile Michaela's situation is okay because it's a good thing that less babies are born into these families. The way people talk about Michaela feels really callous sometimes, especially compared to how much care and concern was shared over the Forsyths. I didn't post at all about this during the aftermath because I do think it's sad that Joy's baby died and I don't want anyone else who has gone through loss to feel like it didn't matter. But it reinforced my experiences wherein people who go through miscarriage or still birth are given an outpouring of sympathy and support while I have publicly shared my infertility for the past year and a half with very little support. (This support for loss is still a step in the right direction IMO because it didn't used to elicit any support and many still don't feel supported. Just not feeling the love where I sit!). Caveat: I'm not saying my response to this was healthy - thus my break - but it does illustrate my point.

I wonder if others do similar things by seeing themselves in the people followed here. You can understand the loneliness that a SAHD might feel and recognize in her something you've felt and as such have a hope that she might find someone, just like you hope your own loneliness will be resolved. Do I want Michael to give birth to a baby that she blanket trains and who has to follow the narrow headship mandates? No, of course not. But as a person, I empathize with her pain. I really, really get it. I don't think my feelings of sympathy toward the Keilens' situation should be viewed differently from those who empathized with the Forsyths, but they are.

But again, if I'm going to root for something, it is that they get out of the spotlight, stop forcing their beliefs on everyone, and raise their children to make their own choices. The babies will or won't happen. 

I'm so glad you shared this perspective. As someone who's been on the one side (multiple pregnancy losses) but not the other (infertility when actively TTC) I think this perspective is really valuable. The way you related it to how people react to both issues when it comes to people we discuss on here is worth thinking about IMO.

I am so very sorry you're having to live through infertility. I know nothing I say can help, but I wish there was. Sending you a hug from Canada.

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picklepizzas
19 hours ago, Smee said:

JD is the Duggar boy who seemed to follow his own path a bit more than the other marrieds, still in the patriarchal cult because it benefits him, but he was less camera-happy, waited longer to get engaged and married, and seems to have other interests. Maybe it was just because she’s a little older, but Abbie seems to have come to the marriage with her own personality and interests too. I really think they’re just as likely to use NFP or some kind of birth control as say Jinger.

I would disagree since Abbie appears to have come from a family that also eschewed birth control. I think Jeremy’s coming from a normal sized family makes it much more likely that he and jinger will try to limit family size than jd and Abbie (and yes I know Jeremy’s parents haven’t announced their fertility decisions, I’m just thinking since they don’t seem to come from a quiverfull background and have a normal size family it’s more likely than not they used something to control their family size). (Also didn’t Jeremy say using birth control was fine in that same sermon that he said wine was fine? Or am I making that up?)

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GreyhoundFan
On 7/1/2019 at 11:22 PM, feministxtian said:

I grew up in Beaconsdale (near Deer Park), lived in Courthouse Green, Willow Green and Village Green. Went to Deer Park Elementary for 1 year, Our Lady of Mt. Carmel and then graduated from Peninsula Catholic HS (the old one on 34th street, not the new one on Harpersville). My parents are buried at Parkland Cemetery on the corner of Hampton Roads Center Pkwy and Armistead Rd. 

I know I'm late to the Hampton Roads talk, but I went to junior high and high school in Hampton. We lived on Fort Monroe and in Buckroe. I loved living there, but the weather was hellish for me. I am happiest in 40 - 50 degree (farenheit) temperatures and with dewpoints under 50. The humidity in Hampton almost killed me. My mom wanted to send me to PCHS, but I refused because they didn't have a band program at the time and I was planning to be a music major in college.

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feministxtian
11 minutes ago, GreyhoundFan said:

I know I'm late to the Hampton Roads talk, but I went to junior high and high school in Hampton. We lived on Fort Monroe and in Buckroe. I loved living there, but the weather was hellish for me. I am happiest in 40 - 50 degree (farenheit) temperatures and with dewpoints under 50. The humidity in Hampton almost killed me. My mom wanted to send me to PCHS, but I refused because they didn't have a band program at the time and I was planning to be a music major in college.

Hampton is worse than NN for humidity. PCHS was a shitty school. Not academically but the student body. I'm still carrying around the scars from the bullying. So...Buckroe...Phoebus or Hampton or Kecoughtan? 

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princessmahina
Just now, feministxtian said:

Hampton is worse than NN for humidity. PCHS was a shitty school. Not academically but the student body. I'm still carrying around the scars from the bullying. So...Buckroe...Phoebus or Hampton or Kecoughtan? 

If we had stayed in the area, I’d have gone to PCHS. I went to OLMC for middle school and the bullying was out of control. I ended up leaving partway through 8th grade and homeschooling because of it. 

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feministxtian
2 minutes ago, princessmahina said:

If we had stayed in the area, I’d have gone to PCHS. I went to OLMC for middle school and the bullying was out of control. I ended up leaving partway through 8th grade and homeschooling because of it. 

My fucking parents didn't believe a goddamn word I said about the bullying at OLMC and PCHS. I was fucking trapped. I used to carry a butterfly knife with me. To give you an indication how long that shit has been accepted, I graduated from PCHS in 1981

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princessmahina
6 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

My fucking parents didn't believe a goddamn word I said about the bullying at OLMC and PCHS. I was fucking trapped. I used to carry a butterfly knife with me. To give you an indication how long that shit has been accepted, I graduated from PCHS in 1981

I think my parents believed me, but it really hit home when mom volunteered at the school. She’s pretty short and had me when she was fairly young (21) and for whatever reason, got mistaken for a middle schooler a fair bit. My bully actually shoved her out of the way, thinking she was another student. 🙄

Obviously that got reported. But she was a teachers daughter so nothing happened. I got an amazing education at OLMC, definitely the best school I went to— and I was a military kid so I went to a lot of different schools— but the attitudes there left a lot to be desired. I can see why a lot of the kids I went to school with there ended up leaving the church. 

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GreyhoundFan
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, feministxtian said:

Hampton is worse than NN for humidity. PCHS was a shitty school. Not academically but the student body. I'm still carrying around the scars from the bullying. So...Buckroe...Phoebus or Hampton or Kecoughtan? 

I went to Phoebus, which was hard at first because I went to Lindsay junior hs and most of my friends from there went to Hampton. In the end, I'm glad I went to Phoebus. The bullying wasn't bad, though it was cliquish.

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it would help if I could type

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just_ordinary
On 7/20/2019 at 3:24 AM, VelociRapture said:

Here’s how I personally view it:

I don’t want more children born into this movement because I think it’s a highly damaging way of life to force on an innocent child. Children are still going to be born into it regardless of what I think though. I’m not happy about it, but I’m not going to wish them ill by hoping something terrible happens or by rejoicing if something goes horribly wrong as it did for Joy and Austin.

When it comes to Michael and Brandon, I do feel genuine sympathy for them. I feel badly that they are struggling with infertility and that it’s likely causing them a great deal of emotional pain, especially since they’re involved in a movement where a woman’s worth is so heavily wrapped up in her ability to have children. I can’t know what that is like for them as I’m not Fundie nor have I ever struggled with infertility, but I do feel for what they might be dealing with. I don’t take joy in their pain just as I don’t take joy in the Forsyths’ pain over losing Annabell. So many of the people we discuss here have horrid beliefs, but they’re still human beings and I can’t help but feel some compassion for them when they end up facing truly difficult circumstances, no matter what those circumstances might be.

I can’t bring myself to wish infertility on anyone, but I also don’t feel happy when innocent kids are brought into IBLP. For me, personally, the welfare of the potential innocent children has to come before the wishes of the couples hoping to have those potential children though. So I personally just settle on hoping that couples like the Keilens are able to find happiness and fulfillment in however their lives turn out, regardless of whether they ever have children or not, and I hope that the couples who do have children end up being more loving and supportive parents than I fear they might actually be. I know it’s not perfect and it’s not fair, but it’s the best compromise I’ve been able to come up with. 

(And to be very clear, this only applies to couples and families involved in harmful movements like IBLP. Loving couples not involved who are dealing with infertility have only my sympathy and heartfelt wish that they ultimately are able to build the family they hope for.)

I suspect many posters share this perspective. But I read @HerNameIsBuffy posts differently. There is a huge difference between not wishing harm on them or wishing them to conceive so they feel better. There is a huge difference to feel sorry for someone you don’t have any real relationship too who experienced a loss or to be devastated, crying and praying for them. The show made some people highly invested in their lives on such a personal level that I often raise an eyebrow or too. Hopefully they are as invested in the life of people they actually do have a real connection  to because the Duggars and Bates don’t even know most of us exist - they obviously know about the site but nothing about the individuals behind the screen.

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feministxtian
1 hour ago, princessmahina said:

I got an amazing education at OLMC, definitely the best school I went to— and I was a military kid so I went to a lot of different schools— but the attitudes there left a lot to be desired. I can see why a lot of the kids I went to school with there ended up leaving the church. 

I was pretty much an atheist by the time I graduated PCHS. I didn't believe a word of their bullshit...how this was a "Catholic School" but they overlooked the kids who got treated like shit...because the other kids (the bullies) were the ones whose parents donated big bucks to the school. I was a lower middle class kid (my dad was blue collar) with an unbelievably ethnic last name (German). 

It took me years but I've found my tribe and my faith. Thing is, I've had amazing adventures and lived in all sorts of different places and those bozos still go to the OBX for vacation every fucking year. 

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lumpentheologie

I agree with @just_ordinary that there's an important difference between feeling sorry if something bad happens to someone (even if you don't like them), and actively wishing for that person's happiness.  I like to think I'm a decent enough person that I'll feel sorry for almost anyone if they lost a child.  I guess to me, with Michaela, infertility falls more under the category of her not getting something she wants, something that would make her happy, than the category of something bad happening to her.  I really don't want to trivialize the suffering of infertility here, I'm just trying to explain how I think my brain processes the difference. (Maybe it would be better to think about it in a different way, I don't know.) 

It's hard for me to slowly turn off that kind of compassion for the children though, at least in any kind of consistent way.  Once they're adults and actively harming the world by continuing to sell the cult, I don't really want them to be happy. They don't deserve it.  And they're more likely to leave if they're not totally happy.  But I wouldn't go so far as to wish something bad happened to them.  But in a sense I guess I am kind of a "fan" of the children.  I'm rooting for them to escape fundamentalism and have a decent life.  I feel sympathy for them as victims of their upbringing.  But once they start making their own decisions that harm other people, that sympathy fades. Not all at once though, because I don't think they suddenly become completely responsible for their actions at age 18, after being mentally and emotionally stunted their whole lives. And it's kind of painful to watch the fundie kids grow up in a way that makes me stop wishing for their happiness. 

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LoonyLovegood

I know the discussion has moved on from the seasons talk... but Jessa definitely knows about seasons. When they announced their last pregnancy, she said she was due in late Spring, and early June is still technically Spring. I don’t know that that necessarily means that there are actually some unannounced babies due in winter, but I am sure she knows the November babies are not due in winter....

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princessmahina
7 hours ago, feministxtian said:

I was pretty much an atheist by the time I graduated PCHS. I didn't believe a word of their bullshit...how this was a "Catholic School" but they overlooked the kids who got treated like shit...because the other kids (the bullies) were the ones whose parents donated big bucks to the school. I was a lower middle class kid (my dad was blue collar) with an unbelievably ethnic last name (German). 

It took me years but I've found my tribe and my faith. Thing is, I've had amazing adventures and lived in all sorts of different places and those bozos still go to the OBX for vacation every fucking year. 

I ended up going to a secular private high school and I think that might be why I ended up staying such a strong Catholic. The people I still keep up with who went to PCHS are overwhelmingly not practicing (or just go for show like their parents did). Maybe 4 of the people I went to school with at OLMC still legitimately practice. If I thought they’d care, I’d let the schools know that they’re doing way more to turn people away from Catholicism than they are to retain them. 

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QuiverFullofBooks

On seasons: I’m on vacation in a small town so far north that they have a “Fall Festival” in August.

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Bobology
1 hour ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

On seasons: I’m on vacation in a small town so far north that they have a “Fall Festival” in August.

Oh yeah, like around here "school starts in the fall" (mid-August.) School has been in session over a month before true fall actually arrives. I'm in the central USA, and most schools did not begin in mid-August until A/C became common in the school buildings.

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twoandthrough
20 hours ago, GreyhoundFan said:

I know I'm late to the Hampton Roads talk, but I went to junior high and high school in Hampton. We lived on Fort Monroe and in Buckroe. I loved living there, but the weather was hellish for me. I am happiest in 40 - 50 degree (farenheit) temperatures and with dewpoints under 50. The humidity in Hampton almost killed me. My mom wanted to send me to PCHS, but I refused because they didn't have a band program at the time and I was planning to be a music major in college.

We LOVE going to Ft. Monroe now! Though, it is kind of creepy since it's basically abandoned, and the base housing is still there. Some of it is rented out to the public now, and there's a really cool brewery there too! We live about 15 minutes away. 

20 hours ago, feministxtian said:

My fucking parents didn't believe a goddamn word I said about the bullying at OLMC and PCHS. I was fucking trapped. I used to carry a butterfly knife with me. To give you an indication how long that shit has been accepted, I graduated from PCHS in 1981

We live VERY close to the new PCHS (IDK how long it's been there, but it looks super new and nice). That's so sad to hear. My kids will go to public school here anyway... and actually, it's likely that only the oldest will go to Kindergarten before we PCS again, but she does enjoy preschool at a local church in NN. (We're in H, not NN, but right on the line).

20 hours ago, princessmahina said:

I think my parents believed me, but it really hit home when mom volunteered at the school. She’s pretty short and had me when she was fairly young (21) and for whatever reason, got mistaken for a middle schooler a fair bit. My bully actually shoved her out of the way, thinking she was another student. 🙄

Obviously that got reported. But she was a teachers daughter so nothing happened. I got an amazing education at OLMC, definitely the best school I went to— and I was a military kid so I went to a lot of different schools— but the attitudes there left a lot to be desired. I can see why a lot of the kids I went to school with there ended up leaving the church. 

Also, I just realized what OLMC is! We live 7-ish minutes from there and drive by it nearly daily. I had just never said the acronym before. :)

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feministxtian
27 minutes ago, twoandthrough said:
30 minutes ago, twoandthrough said:

Also, I just realized what OLMC is! We live 7-ish minutes from there and drive by it nearly daily. I had just never said the acronym before. who the hell wants to write all that shit out!!!!

We live VERY close to the new PCHS (IDK how long it's been there, but it looks super new and nice). That's so sad to hear. My kids will go to public school here anyway... and actually, it's likely that only the oldest will go to Kindergarten before we PCS again, but she does enjoy preschool at a local church in NN. (We're in H, not NN, but right on the line).

The new PCHS was built less than 20 years ago. I went to the old school on 34th street. I have a rough idea of where you're talking about since you're close to the new PCHS (and I know exactly where that is). We lived behind Patrick Henry Mall before we moved west. 

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Wine time!
Snarkasarus Rex

I know a few people who send their kids to OLMC.  One family had a problem with one of the sisters, who rightly no longer teaches there.  There was a lot of hand-wringing until it was worked out, yet, they wouldn't dream of sending the kids to the excellent public schools they were zoned for.  I don't get it.  

We live in YC so my kids go to public schools.  That's the #1 reason we live there.

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HereticHick

Just learned that some of my Oklahoma relatives went to the Stratford peach festival this weekend. I want so bad to  ask them if they saw John and Abbie there, but I don't want to reveal myself as a wierdo. : )

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princessmahina
12 hours ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

I know a few people who send their kids to OLMC.  One family had a problem with one of the sisters, who rightly no longer teaches there.  There was a lot of hand-wringing until it was worked out, yet, they wouldn't dream of sending the kids to the excellent public schools they were zoned for.  I don't get it.  

We live in YC so my kids go to public schools.  That's the #1 reason we live there.

I loved all the sisters, except one who became principal my last year. Tbh they were probably the best part of my experience there. 

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Purrl

New pic posted on their IG. They help’d her family sell ice cream (and proselytize I suppose). They look happy and she still looks very slim but she is smashed up against John.

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      There is still a bit of an abscess left; it’s reduced a bit in size but not completely. Our nearest vet clinic is mainly cat/dog related although the woman we’ve been seeing does have an interest/knowledge about small animals. We’re going to contact another clinic who are an exotics centre; our vet said that she could do a slightly more invasive procedure but that it’d be best if we took Peanut to a specialist place. 
      The vet also said today that we can reunite her with Cinnamon and Grace; there was no evidence of a bite mark but we’ll still have to be careful because of where the abscess is. The main reason we kept her separate was so she could recover post-sedation when the drainage site needed to properly heal. 
      I’m not worried about her health-wise in any major sense, but it’ll be a relief when it’s dealt with! 
      · 5 replies
    • laPapessaGiovanna

      laPapessaGiovanna

      RIP Felice Gimondi

      · 0 replies
    • ViolaSebastian

      ViolaSebastian

      Received news (from my dermatologist) that I tested positive for ANA, which indicates I have some type of auto-immune problem. But I can't see a rheumatologist until my primary care refers me, and I don't have an appointment with primary care until the 28th. And who knows how long it's going to take me to get into a specialist. So now I just get to sit around thinking about what's potentially wrong with me and being scared shitless about it.
      · 2 replies
    • MamaJunebug

      MamaJunebug

      The substitute pastor dislikes me and my candor and forthrightness. As he was giving pre-worship announcements, I needed to blow my nose. Did it so quietly! — but he interrupted himself with “gesundheit!” — and I felt embarrassed and in retaliation rolled my eyes or scowled every time he looked my way during sermon. Also held subsequent nose-clearings for when HE spoke during service. It felt snarky--right at first, now I’m just mad that these patriarchal bozos foul up the peace of music and hymns and prayers with their attitudes and actions. Thanks to FJ for providing this little forum-ette. I feel better for venting. 
      · 3 replies
    • MarblesMom

      MarblesMom

      Today is my 4th anniversary on FJ.  Came for the Joshley scandal and stayed for the rest of the crazy.  xo
      · 4 replies
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