Joy & Austin 27 - Joy and Austin lost baby Annabell, TRIGGER WARNING miscarriage and stillbirth

[picklepizzas]

Wow. That’s a pretty late miscarriage. That’s five months of carrying and planning for that baby. That’s terrible. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

4 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

No heartbeat after 20 weeks is a stillbirth. Period. It is not a miscarriage. It may not matter to you, but to those who have experienced it, it matters. 

in all fairness we only know that they found at the 20 week scan, we don't know the actual gestational age of the baby at the time the heart stopped . so it very well could be classified as a miscarriage. just like the Duggar's say Jubilee was a still birth when in medical terms she was actually a miscarriage. I really don't think this is something we need to be fighting over. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Ivycoveredtower

[SillyDillys]

My heart absolutely breaks for joy and austin. No one deserves to go through that. 

I hope the family is respectful of her sorrow. Especially when all those girls come.

[Silas]

That's just..devastating. No snark here. That's hard for anyone and she's so young. Just...ouch. I hurt for her and can't begin to imagine how it feels. 

[singsingsing]

A lot of medical sources classify a loss at 20 weeks as a miscarriage rather than a stillbirth, so I don’t think there’s any need to infer malicious intent just based on the terminology someone might choose to use in this situation.

[pugglemama]

1 minute ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

in all fairness we only know that they found at the 20 week scan, we don't know the actual gestational age of the baby at the time the heart stopped . so it very well could be classified as a miscarriage. just like the Duggar's say Jubilee was a still birth when in medical terms she was actually a miscarriage. I really don't think this is something we need to be fighting over. 

Does not matter. Why disrespect the loss? There is a huge difference between miscarriage and stillbirth. Most people think of miscarriage as something inconsequential, the loss of a very early fetus with no form. At this stage, this is very much a tiny baby. I’ve had people refer to my loss (which was the delivery of a very much alive 20 1/2 weeker) as a miscarriage. It’s about the preconceptions of miscarriage. Just respect the family and the lost child and refer to her appropriately. 

Just now, singsingsing said:

A lot of medical sources classify a loss at 20 weeks as a miscarriage rather than a stillbirth, so I don’t think there’s any need to infer malicious intent just based on the terminology someone might choose to use in this situation.

The March of Dimes defines a loss at 20 weeks or later as a stillbirth. Period. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

1 minute ago, pugglemama said:

Does not matter. Why disrespect the loss? There is a huge difference between miscarriage and stillbirth. Most people think of miscarriage as something inconsequential, the loss of a very early fetus with no form. At this stage, this is very much a tiny baby. I’ve had people refer to my loss (which was the delivery of a very much alive 20 1/2 weeker) as a miscarriage. It’s about the preconceptions of miscarriage. Just respect the family and the lost child and refer to her appropriately. 

I'm sorry you feel that way but medically we are referring  to  the situation appropriately. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Ivycoveredtower

[coffeebean7]

How heartbreaking ? And to go through that so young seems extra cruel, though I can’t articulate why. I just cannot imagine. And all those other little baby girls due at the same time is even worse. 

[pugglemama]

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

A lot of medical sources classify a loss at 20 weeks as a miscarriage rather than a stillbirth, so I don’t think there’s any need to infer malicious intent just based on the terminology someone might choose to use in this situation.

Not inferring malicious intent. This is a widespread misclassification. My daughter was born alive at 20 weeks and people referred to her as a miscarriage. This is a sensitive issues for families who have experienced this type of loss. Why is it so difficult to just use the correct terminology?

[Smee]

Oh how awful  poor Joy. And to have all those other little nieces due at the same time. Just devastating.

[JillyO]

How absolutely heartbreaking for them!

I hope they allow themselves to truly grieve. This sentence from their Instagram post really gives me pause.

Quote

We don’t grieve as those who have no hope because we trust that we will see this little one again.

I hope that their faith provides them peace and healing during this difficult time, but that they don't feel like they must "get over it" faster or feel less pain because they're Christians.

[singsingsing]

1 minute ago, pugglemama said:

Not inferring malicious intent. This is a widespread misclassification. My daughter was born alive at 20 weeks and people referred to her as a miscarriage. This is a sensitive issues for families who have experienced this type of loss. Why is it so difficult to just use the correct terminology?

People are using correct terminology. I’m very sorry for your loss. The loss of a wanted child is tragic no matter what terminology is used.

[Ivycoveredtower]

Just now, JillyO said:

How absolutely heartbreaking for them!

I hope they allow themselves to truly grieve. This sentence from their Instagram post really gives me pause.

I hope that their faith provides them peace and healing during this difficult time, but that they don't feel like they must "get over it" faster or feel less pain because they're Christians.

I'm wondering if this will bring Michelle and Joy closer together. both having lost a little girl at around the same gestational age all I know is I hope they don't pull a jubilee and air the funeral/Manorial service. 

[coffeebean7]

I forgot to say that I wonder if they will have a funeral? What an awful decision to make. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

should someone maybe change the title really quick so someone doesn't stumble in here unaware and read all these post which could be a determent to them. 

[Kayleigh83]

13 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

No heartbeat after 20 weeks is a stillbirth. Period. It is not a miscarriage. It may not matter to you, but to those who have experienced it, it matters. 

Thank you for clarifying, I wasn't aware that 20 weeks was when it is defined as stillbirth - I hope my response didn't come off as not caring about the distinction because that was not my intention at all.

[SassyPants]

This poor family. For 2 decades their mother made it look so easy, yet most of these gals have struggled in at least 1 aspect of pregnancy and childbirth or another. In addition to grief and sadness, I’m sure they are all befuddled at all that has transpired between them in terms of the pregnancy and birth processes

[Smee]

I hesitate to post this, but... I’m thinking of Lauren and the way she’s reacted to her miscarriage due the same time as Ivy, and wondering whether Joy will see her as a source of comfort and understanding or Lauren attempting to “know how she feels” about a much later loss would upset her even further. As pugglemama has pointed out, for some people it can be very painful to equate the two. But as in their belief system they’re all babies with souls, I can’t see young, naive Lauren being good at making that distinction.

[pugglemama]

5 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

I'm sorry you feel that way but medically we are referring  to  the situation appropriately. 

No you are not. Medically, it is a stillbirth. 

Up to 19w6d, miscarriage. 

20w0d to birth, if there is no heartbeat, stillbirth. Period. Stop arguing. Respect the family and acknowledge the baby. 

3 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

People are using correct terminology. I’m very sorry for your loss. The loss of a wanted child is tragic no matter what terminology is used.

Miscarriage is absolutely not the correct terminology at 20 weeks. 

[Bethella]

I'm not sure the terminology really matters but based on her due date of November 6, one week ago she was exactly 21 weeks. Based on CDC guidelines it was an early stillbirth although the NHS and WHO would classify it as a miscarriage (up to 24 weeks and 28 weeks respectively)

Edited July 4, 2019 by Bethella
adding info

[Ivycoveredtower]

Just now, pugglemama said:

No you are not. Medically, it is a stillbirth. 

Up to 19w6d, miscarriage. 

20w0d to birth, if there is no heartbeat, stillbirth. Period. Stop arguing. Respect the family and acknowledge the baby. 

once again we don't know the gestational age just that it was a 20 week scan for all we know the heart had stopped days before. I think it's time you moved on. 

[pugglemama]

Just now, Bethella said:

I'm not sure the terminology really matters but based on her due date of November 6, one week ago she was exactly 21 weeks. Based on CDC guidelines it was an early stillbirth although the NHS and WHO would classify it as a miscarriage.

Medically a loss after 20 weeks, with no heartbeat is a stillbirth. Per guidelines of the ACOG, AAP, WHO, CDC, and March of Dimes. Calling this loss a miscarriage disrespects the life of the child. 

 

And FYI, I’m pro-choice so this has nothing to do with pro-life, fetal rights, etc. 

2 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

once again we don't know the gestational age just that it was a 20 week scan for all we know the heart had stopped days before. I think it's time you moved on. 

Gestational age does NOT matter. If the fetus is born without a heartbeat after 20 weeks, it is a stillbirth. 

I don’t understand why there is such resistance to being educated about the appropriateness of the label. 

[nausicaa]

8 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

Does not matter. Why disrespect the loss? There is a huge difference between miscarriage and stillbirth. Most people think of miscarriage as something inconsequential, the loss of a very early fetus with no form. 

The March of Dimes defines a loss at 20 weeks or later as a stillbirth. Period. 

And the NHS categorizes a loss at 20 weeks as a miscarriage. Period. 

What is your point here? Plenty of FJers have discussed before how intensely tragic their experience with miscarriage was. No one has been dismissive of miscarriages or defined them as inconsequential other than you. No one has disrespected the loss.

I understand this is an emotionally charged topic for you considering your experience, but you don't get to order people to "stop arguing" or tell them they are disrespecting the family for using valid medical sources other than yours.

[Ivycoveredtower]

3 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

Medically a loss after 20 weeks, with no heartbeat is a stillbirth. Per guidelines of the ACOG, AAP, WHO, CDC, and March of Dimes. Calling this loss a miscarriage disrespects the life of the child. 

 

And FYI, I’m pro-choice so this Geehas nothing to do with pro-life, fetal rights, etc. 

Gestational age does NOT matter. If the fetus is born without a heartbeat after 20 weeks, it is a stillbirth. 

I don’t understand why there is such resistance to being educated about the appropriateness of the label. 

Gestational age very much does matter. you need to leave this thread I believe it's really to triggering for you simmer down and stop acting like people are attacking you. 

[pugglemama]

5 minutes ago, Smee said:

I hesitate to post this, but... I’m thinking of Lauren and the way she’s reacted to her miscarriage due the same time as Ivy, and wondering whether Joy will see her as a source of comfort and understanding or Lauren attempting to “know how she feels” about a much later loss would upset her even further. As pugglemama has pointed out, for some people it can be very painful to equate the two. But as in their belief system they’re all babies with souls, I can’t see young, naive Lauren being good at making that distinction.

I had two first trimester miscarriages and a 20 week premature delivery that resulted in the death of my daughter. I do not see them as even close to equal. To me Joy’s loss is way more devastating than Lauren’s miscarriage. Those who keep claiming Lauren’s current pregnancy is a miracle or whatever are crazy. Josiah and Lauren are two young 20 somethings. It isn’t a miracle they got pregnant while using no birth control and most likely having very frequent sex.