Josh, Anna, the M' kids Part 20: Girl Needs Some Serious Therapy

[Vivi_music]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

Anna said she knew what Josh had done before she married him.

I wonder how much she actually knew. I bet she never read the reports. And I am pretty certain the version the Duggars told her before the wedding was a very minimized version, something trivial, nothing serious, to make it appear like it was a mistake due to his youth and foolishness.

And Anna was a naive sheltered 20 year-old (who probably didn't know much about sexual stuff in general). Of course she believed and probably still believes it is a trivial incident.

Or maybe wants to believe it is nothing. Denial can be a powerful thing.

[JDuggs]

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

 

I believe Caleb Williams, a family friend of the Duggars, was accused of sexually assaulting a teenager (as has also been stated by others.) The Duggars and Bates families were present at the wedding.

Is Caleb Williams married?

13 minutes ago, Vivi_music said:

I wonder how much she actually knew. I bet she never read the reports. And I am pretty certain the version the Duggars told her before the wedding was a very minimized version, something trivial, nothing serious, to make it appear like it was a mistake due to his youth and foolishness.

And Anna was a naive sheltered 20 year-old (who probably didn't know much about sexual stuff in general). Of course she believed and probably still believes it is a trivial incident.

Or maybe wants to believe it is nothing. Denial can be a powerful thing.

Even after it became public, Jessa and Jill defended Josh and treated it like a trivial thing. I assume that all of Josh’s sisters who were his victims tried to convince Anna that they forgave him and she shouldn’t hold his past against him. Since he was forgiven by his victims, Anna had to forgive him too.

[Georgiana]

Pa Keller is absolutely one of the WORST patriarchs we see here when it comes to his daughters.  The BEST son in law he has managed to approve via the courtship process is David Waller.  And no one else even comes close to David in that category.  David and Pris appear to have figured things out now, but their marriage was very bleak initially, and the first couple years included Pris frequently talking about how she cried every night because she felt like a failure as a wife/mother.  It was truly very sad, and I thought it was pretty clear Pris was being emotionally beaten down either by David, herself, or others.  Ironically, it was after the Josh scandal that David and Pris seemed to learn to appreciate one another, and things have turned around since.  I personally think David put a lot of pressure on Pris to be perfect initially, and it wasn't until the Duggar house of cards imploded that David realized that NO ONE is as perfect as they made it seem.  

Josh may actually be the runner up to David.  As terrible as he is, at least his family appears cared for.  The other Keller fundie son-in-law is The World's Most Inept Missionary John Shrader, who made his family tour the country in a pop-up camper to grift donations, and has now moved them all to Zambia where he continues to annoy everyone and save absolutely no one.  I forget how long Esther's last labor was, but it was concerning, especially given how access to medical care in the area can be an issue due to transportation/distance.   John Shrader is "not a job-type person", and even Josh beats him overwhelmingly in terms of work experience.  John also once tried to turn down giving a critically injured man to the hospital, despite Jesus having a parable of almost the same exact situation, because it would delay his annoying people for Jesus.  He regularly takes to his bed for days due to Satan's persecution.  And THIS is the man Pa Keller approved for his daughter.  

Pa Keller seems to approve anyone and everyone to marry his daughters, and I do sometimes wonder if the Duggars focused on the Keller girls because they knew Pa Keller was unlikely to turn them down and was likely to encourage his daughters to overlook the veritable communist parade of red flags Josh was waving.  

[SassyPants]

23 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Why? 

I know it is hard, but we are actually discussing the Evils of Extreme Fundamentalism.  The purpose of Free Jinger.  

 

Sexual  abuse affects a whole lot more people than just fundies. It could support a thread all on its own, for those who are interested.

[Cleopatra7]

1 hour ago, Jana814 said:

Anna did know about what Josh did. I do not think she knew the extent of what he did. I’ve said this before & I’ll say it again. I think her father pushed her into marrying Josh. 

Given that Anna said that it was best to go into marriage completely ignorant of sex as was the case with her, I’m going to guess that whatever she was told was heavily bowlderized with Jesus talk and Gothard buzz words. 

“Josh was defrauded by immodestly dressed girls, which caused him to make wrong choices as a teenaged young man. He went to his parents and Jesus for forgiveness, and has now rededicated his life to God. His family and Jesus forgive Josh, and his testimony is a powerful witness to how awesome God’s power is!”

Barf, barf, barf

[Palimpsest]

2 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

 

Sexual  abuse affects a whole lot more people than just fundies. It could support a thread all on its own, for those who are interested.

Sadly, sexual abuse has been discussed in several hundreds of threads on FJ.  It goes way beyond supporting a "thread all on its own."

If you are not interested in a hugely relevant topic that has hurt so many people, then shame on you. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Here is 1 time I wish for thread drift. 

Why?  Because a conversation is happening that's the purpose of FJ?

You aren't required to read every thread.

31 minutes ago, JDuggs said:

Since he was forgiven by his victims, Anna had to forgive him too.

No she didn't.  What she had to do, her obligation, is to make good decisions for her children.  Staying with and continuing to breed with a child molester isn't in their best interest.

[Kelsey]

What dumbfounds me about Anna's situation is that she is a mother of girls that are or will be the ages of Josh's previous victims. How do you not feel a primal need to protect them? I'm not saying that he will re-offend but I'm saying how do you knowingly take the chance? 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

24 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

 

Sexual  abuse affects a whole lot more people than just fundies. It could support a thread all on its own, for those who are interested.

What are you suggesting?  That the topic of sexual abuse not be discussed on a thread to discuss a sexual predator?  

If this conversation doesn't "interest" you then I suggest you find a lighter discussion topic but it's offensive to try to suppress conversation of the real damage that has happened here.  

I hope I interpreted your statement incorrectly and that's not what you were trying to do.

[Dreadcrumbs]

1 hour ago, Vivi_music said:

I wonder how much she actually knew. I bet she never read the reports. And I am pretty certain the version the Duggars told her before the wedding was a very minimized version, something trivial, nothing serious, to make it appear like it was a mistake due to his youth and foolishness.

And Anna was a naive sheltered 20 year-old (who probably didn't know much about sexual stuff in general). Of course she believed and probably still believes it is a trivial incident.

Or maybe wants to believe it is nothing. Denial can be a powerful thing.

It is amazing what one can rationalize and minimize under a particular set of circumstances.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, JDuggs said:

Is Caleb Williams married?

Even after it became public, Jessa and Jill defended Josh and treated it like a trivial thing. I assume that all of Josh’s sisters who were his victims tried to convince Anna that they forgave him and she shouldn’t hold his past against him. Since he was forgiven by his victims, Anna had to forgive him too.

 That part about the wedding was meant to be about Tabitha’s wedding. I must have added it in the wrong place. I’m sorry. I’m tired and had a long day and my brain isn’t functioning right. 

But no. I don’t believe Caleb is married. 

[WarriorJane]

I keep thinking back to the MK interview with Jill and Jessa, where they said Josh was "a boy in puberty who was a little too curious about girls."  I think that's the line that they, along with the rest of the family were fed, and what Anna was fed too.  The whole thing has been trivialized,  normalized, and sanitized, all to make the cult stay on message.  So yes, it's likely that Anna thought what he did was no big deal and "happens in lots of families."

I'm getting all ragey rehashing the Gothard, ILPB, Josh and Quiverfull stuff, and I'm thankful for the rage.  Because it is important that I don't let entertaining threads about wedding dresses and cute babies bury the truth about this dangerous movement.  When I've had enough,  I'll hop off and check in on some silly potential baby names.  Until then, rage with me, FJ.  

[tabitha2]

25 minutes ago, Kelsey said:

What dumbfounds me about Anna's situation is that she is a mother of girls that are or will be the ages of Josh's previous victims. How do you not feel a primal need to protect them? I'm not saying that he will re-offend but I'm saying how do you knowingly take the chance? 

Presumably  Because she is devout and believes without a doubt God cleansed him of his sins and sinful perversions. But I might add we don’t know the family Dynamic and safeguarding in that house  and that’s not stuff  we Have a right to know anyway. That information is very private and sensitive even for the Duggars who overshare with the public.

[Palimpsest]

10 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

But no. I don’t believe Caleb is married. 

Caleb wasn't married when he was charged with sexual assault of a minor.  He hit the Duggar headlines because the tabloids claimed he was courting <eldest daughter> who doesn't deserve to have her name linked with Caleb.

Joshua Williams, Caleb's brother, has been charged with assault and battery of a minor (not sexual but very nasty). Joshua is married.

Both pleaded Not Guilty, and both cases are still awaiting trial.

[lizzybee]

Are there links to where David and Priscilla were struggling and she was crying every night? That one was one I missed. 

[nelliebelle1197]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

 

Sexual  abuse affects a whole lot more people than just fundies. It could support a thread all on its own, for those who are interested.

You know this thread is in fact about Josh and the abuser being discussed is.... Josh? Right? So move on if you don’t like the topic. This is perhaps one of the bigger things to discuss about Josh and Anna. If you want to post pictures and guess baby names, there are fan sites for that.

[tabitha2]

Er, we guess baby names and post pictures as well here   There is plenty of room for light hearted trivialities and humor along with thought provoking discussion. I guarantee you the thread will drift back to Talking about Anna’s clothes or how cute Meredith is or Baby guessing or other random shit because it always does. Classic FJ drift. 

[Kailash]

Re-reading the threads where it came to light that Josh had molested some of his sisters and it’s absolutely disgusting how many people were speculating about his victims. I think when it happened we were all caught up in the Duggars being exposed as frauds, and shocked that it had actually happened but looking back some of us were too interested in exactly what had happened and to whom. 

[Beermeet]

2 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

Presumably  Because she is devout and believes without a doubt God cleansed him of his sins and sinful perversions. But I might add we don’t know the family Dynamic and safeguarding in that house  and that’s not stuff  we Have a right to know anyway. That information is very private and sensitive even for the Duggars who overshare with the public.

I saw it more like ( and Anna said she almost turned a bad situation into a disaster or something similar) Anna taking her vow to God to stay married very seriously, no matter what. She was hurt and angry but had to suppress her true feelings and desires to leave because of her vows before God. The woman went through hell and didn't even get to live solo with her children during that very difficult time. I can only imagine the shit JB & M said to her while she lived under her in-laws roof while that no good husband of hers was away at Jesus's Camp for Wayward Husbands.  I have no way to know her inner thoughts but, she did express some on TV. She was rightfully hurt and angry but ultimately saw the matter as something between God and herself.  Idk if she really feels like Jesus gave Josh the thumbs up but she did put the situation on herself and her sacred vows before God and I think that drives her forward.  She loves her kids and wants her family intact no matter what, ultimately.  Divorce in her world is the worst possible outcome.  She'd be " one of those working moms" , she had said such.  It's all really sad and quite frankly, scary to me. I do feel for her but, her beliefs are shit and she has zero problems judging others. I don't think Jesus wants any part of this mess.  

ETA: we actually do know some dynamics and safeguards.  They locked the girls in their rooms at night, had them wear leggings under all dresses and no hide and seek between brother and sister, no girls sitting on laps of male family members besides dad.  Josh got his head shaved and sent to Jesus Jail, which translated to building a house or some shit. So, the brothers got treated like potential molesters and the girls were not free to play with them.  Oh, and Josh got a stern talking to by a police officer who was later sentenced to years in jail for kiddie porn. : /

Edited May 25, 2019 by Beermeet

[tabitha2]

She could have left. She was offered a place by her brother. It’s not like she and the kids would starve on the streets in any case . She evidently decided  what she had was better and more worth hanging on for than whatever was waiting for her. She must live with her choices. She Isn't sorry for herself or see herself as a victim of anyone or anything so why should?  

I am talking about in the Josh Duggar home now as regards safeguarding and what not.  

Edited May 25, 2019 by tabitha2

[Beermeet]

@tabitha2 Gotcha. I was obviously thinking about the TTH Duggar home of safeguarding bullshit.  Yeah, tbh, I don't want to even speculate about Josh's personal home life in the present. They are not putting it out there and even if they did, I don't think I could stomach it.

[luv2laugh]

1 hour ago, Kailash said:

Re-reading the threads where it came to light that Josh had molested some of his sisters and it’s absolutely disgusting how many people were speculating about his victims. I think when it happened we were all caught up in the Duggars being exposed as frauds, and shocked that it had actually happened but looking back some of us were too interested in exactly what had happened and to whom. 

I definitely agree. I was mostly a lurker during that time. I think that many of us have watched from the beginning, have seen the Duggars grow up on TV, and feel protective over them.

As strange as it may sound, when I first read the police report and learned of what Josh did, it felt like it happened to a friend’s family. I watched from the beginning when I was a teenager, saw them grow up, and was hurt that they were violated. I remember the Alice rumor and always dismissed it as nonsensical gossip.

Edited May 25, 2019 by luv2laugh

[Georgiana]

2 hours ago, lizzybee said:

Are there links to where David and Priscilla were struggling and she was crying every night? That one was one I missed. 

It came out in the videos. I think it was the one where she was talking about how Michelle was an inspiration, and as part of that she discussed her struggles to illustrate how Michelle had inspired/help her. 

I don’t actually feel solid that it was every night, thinking about it more. But the impression was that she frequently felt like a failure as a wife/mother to the point of tears, and Michelle helped her with those feelings, which were fairly deep (and therefore Michelle is especially impressive). 

[luv2laugh]

5 hours ago, Vivi_music said:

I wonder how much she actually knew. I bet she never read the reports. And I am pretty certain the version the Duggars told her before the wedding was a very minimized version, something trivial, nothing serious, to make it appear like it was a mistake due to his youth and foolishness.

And Anna was a naive sheltered 20 year-old (who probably didn't know much about sexual stuff in general). Of course she believed and probably still believes it is a trivial incident.

Or maybe wants to believe it is nothing. Denial can be a powerful thing.

I don’t believe Anna knew the exact details. Anna’s father works with people in prison by evangelizing them. He is forgiving. JB & Michelle could’ve told him anything and he’d probably forgive all of it. I bet he has heard graphic, violent details of crimes before and preached redemption to them anyway.

I doubt Anna knew any of the details. She was probably told Josh did something very bad. I don’t even know if Anna even knew Josh violated his sisters at all. JB & Michelle probably felt that only needed to be shared with Anna’s then headship (father)... Maybe Anna knew about Josh’s “inappropriate touching” but did not know who he did it to (his sisters & a 5th victim) and how he went about it, multiple times.

Edited May 25, 2019 by luv2laugh

[VelociRapture]

8 hours ago, Kailash said:

Re-reading the threads where it came to light that Josh had molested some of his sisters and it’s absolutely disgusting how many people were speculating about his victims. I think when it happened we were all caught up in the Duggars being exposed as frauds, and shocked that it had actually happened but looking back some of us were too interested in exactly what had happened and to whom. 

Yes. I like to think most of us learned a valuable lesson from this. I did at least and I like to think I’ll do better in the future if anything like this happens again. It was a chaotic time on the site, but that’s no excuse for how we reacted.