Josh, Anna, the M' kids Part 20: Girl Needs Some Serious Therapy

[tabitha2]

I don’t believe any troubled child of 15 is irredeemable.  If we were find out the same thing is happening now as a grown man then I will absolutely agree with you though. 

[precious blessing]

I won't go into detail, but I will say that when I was about 15, I had a fleeting inappropriate thought about a child.

I knew it was wrong, I didn't do anything, it didn't have anything to do with sexual attraction. It stuck with me because it was so disturbing. 

Now I'm in my twenties, I've realized that I have repressed memories of my own sexual abuse as a very young child. I figure this is the reason I must've had that thought with a child similar to my age at the time of my abuse.

I'm not sure why I felt compelled to say this - maybe to share my experience as someone who had an inappropriate thought and didn't become a child molester and isn't a pedophile. I had that thought but I immediately knew it was nauseatingly wrong, so it makes child molesters and pedophiles that much more incomprehensible to me.

I understand why people speculate about how Josh's fucked up environment might have had to do with actions, but I believe people have a basic understanding of right and wrong. If you try to factor in Josh's environment, you're (likely inadvertently) looking for excuses. He has no excuses. He knew what he did was wrong, but he didn't care.

Edited May 23, 2019 by precious blessing

[JordynDarby5]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I think it's pretty harmful to put out there that who knows how many teenage boys think of molesting 5 year old girls as if this is a normal part of sexual development.

It's not.  And any attempt to normalize it is dangerous.  It empowers predators (""everyone feels it, they just don't admit it") and it minimizes how very sick the are.

 

It is very dangerous.

53 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

You can't possibly know that.  Any more than I can know that he is, but to me his actions indicate that he is.

That I agree with 100%  But giving him a pass based on his dysfunctional family isn't something I'm going do.  Plenty of people have extremely dysfunctional families and don't sexually assault 5 year olds.

Neither am I. Lots of people have grown up in dysfunctional families, abusive families, etc. and never molest anyone. This is also what happens every time a man is outed as a molester or rapist no matter how young or how old he is. Every single time. People immediately start looking for excuses. Reasons why he molested children. His parents, his childhood, his upbringing, his friends, bad influences, anything and everything so its not his fault. Why are people so eager to excuse away such a horrifying crime? I really don't understand. Nothing that happened in Josh's family, his horrible parents, or upbringing excuses or is a reason for what he did. He was the one who molested his sisters. No one else is at fault. No one made him do it. He got bolder as he went along. His parents are not responsible for his molesting. They are of course 100 percent responsible for doing nothing after the first time and all the following times. They are responsible for covering up for Josh and not reporting him or getting him help or doing anything but sending him away for a few months.  

[Timetostoplurking]

This whole discussion makes me despise Jim bob, Michelle and Josh so much.   Ugh. I really dislike the whole Duggar family.  All of them!  They just seem to want to wallow in their mediocre, narrow, limited world.  

Please, please someone write a tell all so I can just read it already. 

 

Sorry....rant over. 

[Smee]

I hesitate to post this and might delete it again... but for the sake of explaining where I’m coming from and why I struggle with this question of age and responsibility and whether something could have been done to redeem Josh:
 

Spoiler

 

When I was 12/13 and my brother was 16/17, we played chess together a lot. At some point, I don’t fully remember how or why, that progressed to just chatting in his room and throwing a tennis ball back and forth to each other after games. I would sit on an old couch that was in his room and he would lie in his bed. Again, I don’t remember how the first instance occurred, but sometimes he would be naked under his bedsheets. If the tennis ball we were throwing wasn’t caught and bounced off somewhere so one of us had to retrieve it, he’d get out of bed, naked, and go fetch it. If it fell between my legs and I reached to get it, he’d laugh at me and say “oh, orgasmic”. At one time the conversation was about something to do with guys and girls and sex, and we actually pulled out a ruler and measured his erect penis. These things I remember with certainty. I’m fairly sure, though not 100%, that there were times he was masturbating in his bed while I was in the room.

About three years ago, in the midst of a particularly crippling episode of depression, I began to have additional “memories” of things including forced touching and semen. It was a long and difficult struggle to reconcile what was happening in my mind and if I believed the thoughts or not. Eventually, I wrote a letter to my brother, acting as if ALL the memories were “new” and asking if they had really happened. The fact that he admitted to the things in my first paragraph (when he didn’t have to and I was in a mental hospital at the time, doubting EVERYTHING about my brain) while saying he had no memory of the other things, convinced me that the “new” memories were in fact false. Call it intrusive thoughts or whatever. I’m pretty disgusted in myself for thinking them if they’re not true, but still, they crossed my mind.

We’re now in our 30s, I have kids of my own and a family that remains close as adults. My brother is good friends with my husband. We live in different cities, about 2hrs away, but he visits every couple of months and calls to chat sometimes. I believe that who he was at 17 doesn’t make him unsafe now or a terrible person at heart. He sees my kids, though I’ve never left them alone with him.

 

Now, obviously what happened in my early teens wasn’t the same as what happened to Joy, but at the same time, I think... Josh had NO safe, healthy places to explore his sexuality. No girlfriend he could fool around with. No computer he could look up porn on, no access to magazines. He was told that just masturbating was a sin. We don’t even know if what he did actually aroused him or if it was because he thought he could get away with it where he couldn’t with an older girl. Is it really impossible that with the right people around him he could have grown into a decent man with regrets and shame? He DIDN’T grow into that man and he didn’t have the right people around. But to say that there’s no possibility, that it was all his personality and inherent in who he is... that’s petrifying to me. It means my son might grow up to hurt his sisters one day and NOTHING in how I am raising him could prevent that. It means the way my brother behaves around me and my family (& everyone else he’s in contact with) as an adult bears no relevance and any regret he feels is probably insincere. I’m not trying to defend Josh’s behaviour, just saying that scientifically and legally there is a difference between a 15yr old brain and a 30yr old one, and to me, his actions as an adult are a better judgment of the entitled asshole he is.

[Hisey]

3 hours ago, Smee said:

Your words are so much better than mine! Thank you. I didn’t want to sound like I thought child molestation itself isn’t as big a deal as infidelity. 

I know exactly what you meant, don't worry.

Without question, at 15, he needed help. Who wouldn't help a 15-year old boy in such a situation? Who would write off such a boy because they decided ahead of time that he was a "monster" and beyond help?

I used to work with adolescents who had committed crimes. They were not in jail, not even in juvie. They were at a school where people tried to help them. These teens couldn't drive, vote, get a hotel room, rent an apartment, engage in a contract or buy a car because their brains weren't fully developed so they weren't allowed to do these things. In addition, the state didn't hold them fully responsible for the things they'd done. This would not have happened if they were ten years older. 

When people talk about how Josh would have fared better if he'd gotten "good" therapy by a "licensed counselor", I am skeptical. I am not sure if "good" therapy exists for a teen with a sexual problem--unless he wants to change.  There was a portion of my school where boys with sexual problems were treated. The therapists were among the most qualified in the state.

Even so, these therapists didn't have many tools in their toolbox. Basically, they encouraged the boys to try to change the subject of their fantasies. I can remember them encouraging the boys to imagine sex in a field of flowers. Basically, the kids were encouraged to find healthier things to get them aroused. It didn't really seem to work. At the time, I was thinking, "That's all you got?" There was no magic bullet that could make those kids want to engage in normal, healthy sexual activity.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Hisey

[luv2laugh]

On 5/21/2019 at 9:16 PM, Angelface said:

I’ve always suspected that Josh would prefer a smaller family.  Anna, however, has made no secret of the fact that she wants “as many as God sends”. I wonder if Josh might have drawn the line at four but then all the scandals came to light.  The joyous time after the birth of a healthy baby was spoilt for Anna when Josh’s past behaviour and then current Ashley Madison affair was discovered and publicised. I can understand Anna’s desire to have another baby after Meredith and after Josh’s return from “rehab”, she was cheated out of the joy of a new baby by Josh’s behaviour and had to be a single parent whilst he was reforming himself. Perhaps part of their “deal” is that Josh had to agree to more children in order for Anna to forgive him. She appears to be a good mother and homemaker and to genuinely love and want her children. I hope that at the very most they stop at eight rather than keep adding to their brood. Josh needs to find some business venture that he can throw himself into and be challenged and develop and grow. His past behaviour was atrocious. His future just seems so mundane and boring. He needs to find some dreams. 

I think Anna is coping with her marriage by throwing herself into her identity as a mom rather than giving Josh attention. 

[Iamtheway]

 

6 hours ago, JordynDarby5 said:

Why are people so eager to excuse away such a horrifying crime? I really don't understand. 

To protect themselves. If there is an explanation, a specific factor that led to the crime, then there is something you can do to make sure the same doesn’t happen to you or your children. 

We want the monsters to look like monsters because then we can see them coming. We don’t want to think about the fact that pretty much any of our friends, colleauges or neighbours, maybe even a relative that we love, could be hiding such horrible secrets. 

And if we find out someone we know has done something we try to excuse it away because we don’t want to admit to ourselves or anyone else that we could not spot the danger. Because if we couldn’t spot it that time then we probably can’t spot it the next time either and that shit is scary.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 hours ago, Smee said:

Josh had NO safe, healthy places to explore his sexuality. No girlfriend he could fool around with. No computer he could look up porn on, no access to magazines. He was told that just masturbating was a sin.

I am really sorry for what you went through.

I understand what you're saying, but to the above...many, many teenage boys haven't had the chance to even make out with a girl by 15.  I've known more than a few late bloomers in my life who didn't date until after high school.  My entire generation and those before grew up without being able to look up porn on the internet, and for many access to magazines or such wasn't more than infrequent happenstance.  And as far as being told masturbating was a sin...speaking for generations of Catholics that's not a Duggar thing.  It's not like all mainstream families were pro-masturbation and sex positive.  You don't have to be a fundy to have grown up with shame around sexuality taught by your parents.

6 hours ago, Smee said:

We don’t even know if what he did actually aroused him or if it was because he thought he could get away with it where he couldn’t with an older girl. Is it really impossible that with the right people around him he could have grown into a decent man with regrets and shame?

Yes, we do.  If it didn't arouse him he wouldn't have felt compelled to do something so harmful and so vile over and over again with child after child.

We have no idea what he could have grown into with the right people around him, but some monsters had good people around them.  Some people raised in abuse never harm a soul.  The nature vs nurture argument is complex and Idk if it will ever be settled.

You seem to be a very kind person, but in excusing what he did as a product of his upbringing IS dangerous to me because it normalizes it.  Not every teenage boy had dates and friends and a healthy sexuality modeled for him and the vast, vast majority never sexually assault small children.

[Smee]

41 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

We have no idea what he could have grown into with the right people around him, but some monsters had good people around them.  Some people raised in abuse never harm a soul.  The nature vs nurture argument is complex and Idk if it will ever be settled.

You seem to be a very kind person, but in excusing what he did as a product of his upbringing IS dangerous to me because it normalizes it.  Not every teenage boy had dates and friends and a healthy sexuality modeled for him and the vast, vast majority never sexually assault small children.

I can understand what you’re saying and it’s a valid point (& I must say, I think everyone has been respectful and kind in this thread even to those they passionately disagree with). I don’t want to excuse him, nor do I think it was 100% nurture (otherwise JD and Josiah etc would have done similar things, and they didn’t). I don’t think its 100% nature either, and I suppose that as Iamtheway said, a large part of that is driven by fear. Not so much that we can’t spot the monsters, but that we can’t prevent more of them from entering the world.

I have a 7yr old son, and I’ve very much bought in to 21st century discourse about teaching consent from the start - simple things like stopping tickling as soon as the kid asks, reiterating that they never have to hug someone if they don’t want to and likewise if someone else doesn’t want to hug them that’s ok. I really want to believe that it matters and it’s possible to teach a young boy how to not be a rapist. But in reality I know it’s more complex than that.

[nelliebelle1197]

14 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I disagree with this also.  I remember very well being a teenager and I had very, very poor impulse control ...but I never harmed anyone sexually because it never occurred to me.  That it not only occurred to him but his urges were so strong he has a trail of victims in his wake makes him inherently dangerous, IMO. 

I think the biggest issue is that this was all public, their lives were on display and there has been no evidence of any sort of justice for the victims and any sort of real rehab for Josh- he  needs real, long term mental health help to make sure he does not hurt his own children and others. Maybe this was an aberration caused by the crazy Duggar worldview or maybe is a sexual predator or maybe both.

Anyway you look at it, the man is currently not safe around small children. Ignorance and Jesus are not an excuse.

[formergothardite]

A 15 year old molesting multiple underage girls, some pretty young, is very, very serious. I don't know if his behavior can be blamed on his upbringing because lots and lots of people are raised in similar situations and they don't end up molesting young girls. 

I don't that I would say that a 15 year old was totally irredeemable, but they would need to have enormous amounts of help, to be kept away from children for a very long time, and I personally would find it very difficult to trust them alone with children. 

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

This thread is making me think, man, our society really fears pedophiles (for good reason) but the average (or above average, it's Free Jinger!) person doesn't seem to know much about pedophiles versus child molesters, who's at a risk of reoffending, etc. I freely confess that I have no idea if molesting very young children when you're 15 means that you necessarily are sexually attracted to children or children exclusively, if that can be changed, or what. I'd like to know, but on the other hand I find the googling squicky, you know?

I've read more about pedophiles who as adults just attempt to not act out on their fantasies because they realize it's wrong. I can respect that.

Wouldn't it be great if they taught this stuff in high school, along with consent, safe sex for all kinds of sex, healthy relationship dynamics, consequences of sexting, etc etc etc? A girl can dream.

ETA: I just noticed my post count title is currently "God took me off the sex offender registry." Great timing but also lol but also ew.

Edited May 23, 2019 by PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea
funny post count title, spelled "they" wrong

[Glasgowghirl]

29 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

A 15 year old molesting multiple underage girls, some pretty young, is very, very serious. I don't know if his behavior can be blamed on his upbringing because lots and lots of people are raised in similar situations and they don't end up molesting young girls. 

I don't that I would say that a 15 year old was totally irredeemable, but they would need to have enormous amounts of help, to be kept away from children for a very long time, and I personally would find it very difficult to trust them alone with children. 

Agreed, while Josh has not shown any sign of offending as an adult, I still wouldn't take the chance and leave him or anyone I knew with that history alone with any children I knew. Even if the chance is a small chance, I personally wouldn't risk it.

Josh is the only one to blame for what happened, Jim Bob and Michelle may not have had the best environment for him to grow up and guide him through puberty but he was the one that chose to abuse his sister's and a family friend. I did have some sympathy when this just came out but on reflection we can't just let a bad upbringing be used to excuse behaviour, when other people have it just as bad or worse.

[VelociRapture]

I think it’s ok to try and understand what motivates someone to act a certain way. If we don’t take time to do that as a society we won’t be able to find ways to help those who need it or protect those who need protecting. If it crosses over into excusing behavior that’s not ok, but trying to understand motivations and reasons behind why people act as they do isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I think there’s a difference between stating that Josh’s upbringing could have played a role in what he did and stating that it absolutely played a role or stating that he can’t be held responsible for his actions because of his childhood. 

I honestly have nothing more to contribute other than that. I have no interest in debating whether he’s a pedophile or a child molester or anything like that - all I know is I wouldn’t trust him around my kid and that’s all I need to know. We’ve discussed this endlessly since the news first broke and I’m kind of just tired, so I’ll leave you all to it.

[Palimpsest]

17 minutes ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

I freely confess that I have no idea if molesting very young children when you're 15 means that you necessarily are sexually attracted to children or children exclusively, if that can be changed, or what. I'd like to know, but on the other hand I find the googling squicky, you know?

I think many people are confused about this.  

However, it is generally thought that an adolescent sexual offender with younger child victims is not necessarily going to grow up into a paedophile.  In other words it is not the age but the availability of the victim that's relevant.  t is also generally thought that the earlier the offending behavior is caught and stopped the lesser the chances of recidivism.

Here's a good, straightforward, and easily readable article from Australia on the subject: 

https://aifs.gov.au/cfca/publications/young-people-who-sexually-abuse-key-issues

Quote

Conclusion

In summary, this paper has shown:

• sexual abuse by young people is serious and harmful to the victim;
• abusive behaviour is not part of 'normal' development;
• sexual abuse by young people calls for police and/or child protection intervention;
• there is no 'one size fits all' approach to understanding young people with sexually abusive behaviours;
• the safety of victims and potential victims of sexual abuse must always be the first consideration;
• young people who have committed acts of sexual abuse are not necessarily destined to become adult 'sex offenders';
• young people need treatment and intervention programs that are appropriate to their age and stage of development;
• further work is needed to incorporate a gendered analysis into responses to sexual abuse by young people.

Hope that helps.

[AussieKrissy]

1 hour ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

This thread is making me think, man, our society really fears pedophiles (for good reason) but the average (or above average, it's Free Jinger!) person doesn't seem to know much about pedophiles versus child molesters, who's at a risk of reoffending, etc. I freely confess that I have no idea if molesting very young children when you're 15 means that you necessarily are sexually attracted to children or children exclusively, if that can be changed, or what. I'd like to know, but on the other hand I find the googling squicky, you know?

I've read more about pedophiles who as adults just attempt to not act out on their fantasies because they realize it's wrong. I can respect that.

Wouldn't it be great if they taught this stuff in high school, along with consent, safe sex for all kinds of sex, healthy relationship dynamics, consequences of sexting, etc etc etc? A girl can dream.

ETA: I just noticed my post count title is currently "God took me off the sex offender registry." Great timing but also lol but also ew.

I have worked with all types of sex offenders for 18 years. Let me tell you in my pretty experienced (IMO) opinion. The only cure/treatment for them is a bullet to the head. 

And the world would be a better place.

The Ashley Madison shit, is human  

Josh was 15. He knew what he did, that made him a monster. 

Yes, I’ll get hate for this harsh post. I still think they should be shot..

In Australia, they will hunt and kill a croc or shark that kills anyone...

But Sex offenders, get minimum sentences (if that). 

To clarify. I have worked with offenders 18 and above.. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by AussieKrissy
For clarification

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 hours ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

person doesn't seem to know much about pedophiles versus child molesters,

Actually that’s the one thing I think we do understand.  

We all know Josh was a child molester.  None of us know whether or not he’s a pedophile. 

I do agree that when it comes to recidivism, motivations, cause, nature/nurture for child molesters no one really knows.  I certainly don’t.  

Edited May 23, 2019 by HerNameIsBuffy
Riffle

[Palimpsest]

 @AussieKrissy, I think we have discussed this before on a different thread.  Perhaps the Toby Willis one.

I'm similarly pessimistic about the chances of rehabbing adult sex offenders but, as I believe in nonviolence, I prefer to lock them away in prison, throw away the key, and never let them see the light of day again.

Are you still working with sex offenders?  Woman, get out for your own sake.  That work is utterly soul destroying.

I think the article I posted above does make the differences clear between consensual sexual experimentation in adolescents and aberrant non-consensual (sleeping victims) or coercive sexual molestation though.  What Josh did to his sisters and the other victim was not normal.  Neither was Ashley Madison.  We just have to hope he is not a paedophile.  

[luv2laugh]

After reading the entire police report, I felt ill.

The police report described very graphic predatory actions. I can’t imagine why a 15 year old would prey upon such young children... The act and “strategy”  Josh went about molesting is alarming.

I remember being 15 and I knew right from wrong. Many of my peers had boyfriends they’d bring to school dances. Didn’t Michelle get married at 17? Didn’t Lauren, Kendra, and Ben start courting at 17?

Edited May 23, 2019 by luv2laugh

[tabitha2]

Good ole Miss Madison was paid for though. They were sure not going to let him get his Fundie Freak on for free. As far as we know he has never raped anyone. 

[SassyPants]

Not a good post workout meal read at all. But let us not forget that JB has sold his ways as better than the rest of ours...and has made a very comfortable living doing such. So what does that say about JB? Most sane people in his position would retreat into a more quiet lifestyle, but not this egomaniac. They want to talk so much about their Godly and modest choices, yet where is the humbleness Or humility? Have we ever heard either JB or M voice that their approach with Josh was wrong and that they wished that they done things differently or better protected their daughters and others? Has Josh ever taken responsibility for his actions? 

Edited May 23, 2019 by SassyPants

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I think many people are confused about this.  

However, it is generally thought that an adolescent sexual offender with younger child victims is not necessarily going to grow up into a paedophile.  In other words it is not the age but the availability of the victim that's relevant.  t is also generally thought that the earlier the offending behavior is caught and stopped the lesser the chances of recidivism.

Here's a good, straightforward, and easily readable article from Australia on the subject: 

https://aifs.gov.au/cfca/publications/young-people-who-sexually-abuse-key-issues

Hope that helps.

Thanks, that's very helpful!

I kind of had the vague idea of this article until the last week of people posting "All young people who abuse younger people are broken forever!!" made me doubt.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

18 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

As far as we know he has never raped anyone.

He sexually assaulted, forced himself, on  5 young girls ...this isn’t about semantics.

[JordynDarby5]

23 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Not a good post workout meal read at all. But let us not forget that JB has sold his ways as better than the rest of ours...and has made a very comfortable living doing such. So what does that say about JB? Most sane people in his position would retreat into a more quiet lifestyle, but not this egomaniac. They want to talk so much about their Godly and modest choices, yet where is the humbleness Or humility? Have we ever heard either JB or M voice that their approach with Josh was wrong and that they wished that they done things differently or better protected their daughters and others? Has Josh ever taken responsibility for his actions? 

No, in that interview they said they did everything 100% correct. Which no they did everything 100% wrong. The first time they found out about it they should have removed Josh and got him help and got his victim help. They should have never made the girls forgive him. They certainly shouldn't have accused other groups of being molesters. Or act like it was no big deal. Molestation is a big deal.

Edited May 23, 2019 by JordynDarby5