Josh, Anna, the M' kids Part 20: Girl Needs Some Serious Therapy

[tabitha2]

FJ used to be a lot more free with inappropriate speculation and stalking Fundies in real life and other creepy stuff. It’s much more rational now

[Gnomewizard]

15 hours ago, Vivi_music said:

I wonder how much she actually knew. I bet she never read the reports. And I am pretty certain the version the Duggars told her before the wedding was a very minimized version, something trivial, nothing serious, to make it appear like it was a mistake due to his youth and foolishness.

And Anna was a naive sheltered 20 year-old (who probably didn't know much about sexual stuff in general). Of course she believed and probably still believes it is a trivial incident.

Or maybe wants to believe it is nothing. Denial can be a powerful thing.

This. I have seen how people will twist events to make them sounds trivial and even manage to blame someone else for it. Denial and a willingness to avoid thinking critically about the situation and instead blame anyone or anything else is easier than acknowledging that a person has done a horrible thing and that those around them have made a choice to cover it up or rewrite it instead of actually dealing with it head on.

The lengths people will go to.

[Palimpsest]

12 hours ago, Kailash said:

Re-reading the threads where it came to light that Josh had molested some of his sisters and it’s absolutely disgusting how many people were speculating about his victims.

Many people objected to it too, both on threads and in Community Discussion.  Thank goodness.  We became a better place.

4 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Yes. I like to think most of us learned a valuable lesson from this. I did at least and I like to think I’ll do better in the future if anything like this happens again. It was a chaotic time on the site, but that’s no excuse for how we reacted. 

It was a hugely chaotic time and resulted in a massive influx of new posters.  The really obnoxious ones didn't last long. 

It also resulted in serious rule changes.  So it is not just a case of anyone doing better, although that is always nice. 

It is a case of members being warned or banned if they speculate about the identity of victims of sexual abuse or issue death threats.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

19 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

It was a hugely chaotic time and resulted in a massive influx of new posters. 

You aint kidding.  We had to take shifts to babysit Duggar threads and a lot of work went in behind the scenes tweaking rules to protect victims without OTT censorship.  @Curious has a real gift for finding the line of reason when it comes to that kind of thing.

[JenniferJuniper]

11 hours ago, Georgiana said:

It came out in the videos. I think it was the one where she was talking about how Michelle was an inspiration, and as part of that she discussed her struggles to illustrate how Michelle had inspired/help her. 

We can't know what really goes on in people's lives, but David Waller makes me personally very anxious. This sounds strange even to me as I don't know him, but I really get a sense of an intense, almost suffocating need for perfection.  For himself and Pris, and probably Paul and Davia.  Priscilla presents as less nervous in the few videos we see of her now and I hope my spidey senses are way off, but the guy really creeps me out.  As much as Josh Duggar does but in a different way.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

22 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

We can't know what really goes on in people's lives, but David Waller makes me personally very anxious. This sounds strange even to me as I don't know him, but I really get a sense of an intense, almost suffocating need for perfection.  For himself and Pris, and probably Paul and Davia.  Priscilla presents as less nervous in the few videos we see of her now and I hope my spidey senses are way off, but the guy really creeps me out.  As much as Josh Duggar does but in a different way.

For me it's less than Josh Duggar ...but I agree with you on the rest.  He has a very intense perfectionist vibe that triggers my anxiety as well.

Like the kid on a group project that can't let other people be less than perfect in doing their parts.  And that's how I see their marriage - Pris and David in a joint child rearing project devoid of romantic love or attachment as a couple.

I hope they've settled into a healthy-ish form of cooperation and companionship.

Edited May 25, 2019 by HerNameIsBuffy

[Beermeet]

David freaks me out. @JenniferJuniper, spot on. I get mean vibes from him, superior vibes, mentally abusive vibes ( hopefully that's all) and perfectionist vibes. He goes through the motions of what he thinks marriage should be Gothard style. I would not want to be near him or Josh. They both freak me out!!!!

[Smee]

11 hours ago, Gnomewizard said:

This. I have seen how people will twist events to make them sounds trivial and even manage to blame someone else for it. Denial and a willingness to avoid thinking critically about the situation and instead blame anyone or anything else is easier than acknowledging that a person has done a horrible thing and that those around them have made a choice to cover it up or rewrite it instead of actually dealing with it head on.

The lengths people will go to.

I expect Anna takes exactly the same line as Jill and Jessa did. “It was over the clothes!” “We slept through the whole thing!” “Jesus forgave him and so did we!” And really, if someone very invested in Josh was looking to forgive him or explain it away, the police reports aren’t as damning as the comments in this thread. I doubt, for example, that Anna would say “fingered a five year old” when she read Joy’s testimony of him touching her buttocks then running from the room.

That, and “it’s already been dealt with”. I re-read all the police reports over the past couple of days (hence not coming back to this thread for a bit, until I was done) and what sticks out to me now is how vehemently they all seemed to believe it was dealt with and would never happen again. Every single victim said something to the effect of “he’s been good since he came back” and only one said they still struggled to trust him. That’s so odd to me given how his behaviour escalated, became more brazen and his victims became younger. To just go work on a construction project and... stop. Surely, SURELY that’s not sufficient to deal with what he was doing, yet all the family STILL thinks it was, and until the Ashley Madison scandal broke, they didn’t have evidence to the contrary (that we know of, anyway). 

The other thing that I had forgotten was that in all 5 instances Josh was the one who told his parents about it, not the victims. Which means 2 things: 1) he was crying out for help and they failed him completely; 2) all five victims either didn’t know they had been violated, or didn’t feel safe telling a parent about it. It doesn’t bode well for ensuring there was no reoffending, because all Josh had to do to avoid Jesus Jail again was not confess again.

Whoever posted that IBLP thing about “why God let a 4yr old be raped”: that is the most stomach turning thing I have read in a long, long time. Fuck you, Gothard. A “moral vaccination”? Die in a hole, you disgusting turd.

[TheMustardCardigan]

The Duggars have been trying to pawn Josh off since he was, according to the rumors, “betrothed” to a girl at 14. They knew he was “off” and could likely stray from the cult. I think they were trying to sandbag him down as quickly as acceptably possible with a wife and kids. I have no doubt they went to Pa Keller because they knew there was a low standard there. 

[SilverBeach]

On 5/24/2019 at 7:15 PM, tabitha2 said:

But I might add we don’t know the family Dynamic and safeguarding in that house  

There's no safeguarding against a sexual predator living in the same house.

13 hours ago, Smee said:

the police reports aren’t as damning as the comments in this thread. I doubt, for example, that Anna would say “fingered a five year old” when she read Joy’s testimony of him touching her buttocks then running from the room.

All child sexual abuse is damning. 

13 hours ago, Smee said:

Josh was the one who told his parents about it, not the victims.

Very common in child sexual abuse for the victim not to tell, I know because it happened to me.

13 hours ago, Smee said:

Whoever posted that IBLP thing about “why God let a 4yr old be raped”: that is the most stomach turning thing I have read in a long, long time. Fuck you, Gothard. A “moral vaccination”? Die in a hole, you disgusting turd.

Now this I agree with.

Edited May 26, 2019 by SilverBeach

[ViolaSebastian]

The police report stated that Joy was touched on the breasts and vagina. I wasn’t sure I remembered it correctly and went and re-read the report for clarification. To say it was just her buttocks is incorrect. 

[luv2laugh]

40 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

The police report stated that Joy was touched on the breasts and vagina. I wasn’t sure I remembered it correctly and went and re-read the report for clarification. To say it was just her buttocks is incorrect. 

From what I remember, (I could be remembering incorrectly) the incident occurred when Josh was reading a book to a 5 year old sibling. I believe she was on his lap? I think the report mentioned that the sibling was molested, digitally. Someone saw it and ran to tell JB and Michelle, correct? 

Edited May 26, 2019 by luv2laugh

[Gnomewizard]

45 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

 

Very common in child sexual abuse for the victim not to tell, I know because it happened to me.

 

I told. It did not go well. The abuse from telling was, unspeakable. When they hunted me with a bow and arrow I did not tell, I had already learned what would happen if I did. Thankfully, the location I was shot was not life threatening and did not need medical attention. I will forever be haunted by the sound of the arrows whizzing past me. They are now serving in the US Military.

[Beermeet]

28 minutes ago, Gnomewizard said:

I told. It did not go well. The abuse from telling was, unspeakable. When they hunted me with a bow and arrow I did not tell, I had already learned what would happen if I did. Thankfully, the location I was shot was not life threatening and did not need medical attention. I will forever be haunted by the sound of the arrows whizzing past me. They are now serving in the US Military.

I'm giving you a *virtual * hug, love. Please imagine it a real one. When I think back to things that happened to me, that I dare not speak of, I hug little me. I tell her it was wrong and unfair to be hurt like that and that I love her. I love little me for her coping skills she never should have had. I feel the same way about little you, little @SilverBeach and all us little girls who went through that evil.  It's brave to speak up and own it. Then and now. We did no wrong, but wrong was done to us. I pray we continue to heal and protect our daughters in a healthy way and love our adult selves. And, teach our son's well. Share the stories with them. Be well my friends, it's a hard thing to read and discuss.  

Edited May 26, 2019 by Beermeet

[Chewing Gum]

37 minutes ago, Gnomewizard said:

I told. It did not go well. The abuse from telling was, unspeakable. When they hunted me with a bow and arrow I did not tell, I had already learned what would happen if I did. Thankfully, the location I was shot was not life threatening and did not need medical attention. I will forever be haunted by the sound of the arrows whizzing past me. They are now serving in the US Military.

Oh my, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I can not imagine telling and not being heard. While I was much older when it happened to me, I also do what @Beermeet puts so eloquently. Hug little me, comfort and explain as I will explain to my daughters when they are older in the hope that if something were to ever happen to them, they know we as their parents are their safe haven.

[ViolaSebastian]

1 hour ago, luv2laugh said:

From what I remember, (I could be remembering incorrectly) the incident occurred when Josh was reading a book to a 5 year old sibling. I believe she was on his lap? I think the report mentioned that the sibling was molested, digitally. Someone saw it and ran to tell JB and Michelle, correct? 

In the police interview, she said he pulled down her pants (under her dress) and touched her privates (her words). I honestly can't find a specific allegation of digital penetration in the police report, but that may have been something that came up later or something that people inferred from the charge he got. I'm super sick and finding it hard to focus on a document like that, so in the spirit of full disclosure, I may have missed it, so please, no one jump all over me. I'm not denying it; I just can't find the source. I'm also going back over old threads to see when that specific thing started to come up, but it's slow going as again, I'm sick, and also it's upsetting as fuck. If anyone knows where that information came from, please let us know. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by ViolaSebastian

[Beermeet]

2 hours ago, Chewing Gum said:

Oh my, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I can not imagine telling and not being heard. While I was much older when it happened to me, I also do what @Beermeet puts so eloquently. Hug little me, comfort and explain as I will explain to my daughters when they are older in the hope that if something were to ever happen to them, they know we as their parents are their safe haven.

It's so strange, the feeling I get when I comfort little me. I'm her mommy. But we are the same person.  It's something I think we could all benefit from, really.  It doesn't have to be abuse. Little me needs a hug from adult me for insecure, poor choices ( be it academic or socially). To let her know I'm proud of her and she did great. "They" did suck. I was right about that."

It's cathartic.  Helps me be stronger and more content.  Like litte me has the mom she needed and deserved. 

I sound completely nuts, don't I? Lol 

?????

Edited May 26, 2019 by Beermeet

[IsmeWeatherwax]

.

 

Edited May 26, 2019 by IsmeWeatherwax
I changed my mind on what I posted

[mollysmom]

1 hour ago, Beermeet said:

It's so strange, the feeling I get when I comfort little me. I'm her mommy. But we are the same person.  It's something I think we could all benefit from, really.  It doesn't have to be abuse. Little me needs a hug from adult me for insecure, poor choices ( be it academic or socially). To let her know I'm proud of her and she did great. "They" did suck. I was right about that."

It's cathartic.  Helps me be stronger and more content.  Like litte me has the mom she needed and deserved. 

I sound completely nuts, don't I? Lol 

?????

I don't think you sound nuts, at all. I do the same thing. I want to be the person I needed when I was little. I laid in bed crying almost every night wondering why no one helped me. I knew people heard what was going on but no one spoke up. No one helped. I don't ever want any child to feel the way I felt. Ever. 

[marshmallow]

Sending virtual hugs to everyone sharing about abuse they suffered. No child should have to experience this and my heart goes out to you.

 

And @Beermeet, I don't think you sound nuts. I have sometimes used the same technique. I learned it from Karen McBride's book 'Will I ever be good enough? Healing the daughters of narcissistic mothers'. 

Did you come up with it yourself (asking merely out of curiosity)?

I think you should be proud of yourself (all of you) for practicing self-care in this way.

 

More virtual hugs!

[Beermeet]

33 minutes ago, marshmallow said:

Sending virtual hugs to everyone sharing about abuse they suffered. No child should have to experience this and my heart goes out to you.

 

And @Beermeet, I don't think you sound nuts. I have sometimes used the same technique. I learned it from Karen McBride's book 'Will I ever be good enough? Healing the daughters of narcissistic mothers'. 

Did you come up with it yourself (asking merely out of curiosity)?

I think you should be proud of yourself (all of you) for practicing self-care in this way.

 

More virtual hugs!

I read it somewhere.  Anywhere from a Cosmo rag to a movie. I heard the idea and liked it. It made sense and brought me closer to myself ?

[Iamtheway]

I just want to hug all of your little yous and save you from being hurt. I’m sorry you had to go through that and impressed about the way you came out on the other side as strong, smart women. 

[Smee]

7 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

The police report stated that Joy was touched on the breasts and vagina. I wasn’t sure I remembered it correctly and went and re-read the report for clarification. To say it was just her buttocks is incorrect. 

My apologies, I just went back and looked again - in the “Josh Duggar 2006 police report” thread, someone please point me in the right direction if that’s not what we’re talking about. Joy’s interview (page 22) she says “private” and then she points to the buttocks on a picture. It did specifically say further down that page “<redacted> said <redacted> touched <redacted> on the buttocks and not the breasts or vagina”. However, after reading your post I was confused until I re-read Jim Bob’s interview (page 15) and HE says the book reading incident involved touching on the breasts and vaginal area. So there’s a discrepancy between the different family members’ reports.

8 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Very common in child sexual abuse for the victim not to tell, I know because it happened to me.

Oh, I absolutely know this, I wasn’t denying that it’s common at all! I meant that in a way it’s even more worrying, because if Josh DIDN’T stop his behaviour but did stop telling his parents, who would know? Everyone in the family was all “oh he went away and got better” but it’s entirely plausible that he went away and learnt not to keep admitting to it. 

[ViolaSebastian]

8 minutes ago, Smee said:

My apologies, I just went back and looked again - in the “Josh Duggar 2006 police report” thread, someone please point me in the right direction if that’s not what we’re talking about. Joy’s interview (page 22) she says “private” and then she points to the buttocks on a picture. It did specifically say further down that page “<redacted> said <redacted> touched <redacted> on the buttocks and not the breasts or vagina”. However, after reading your post I was confused until I re-read Jim Bob’s interview (page 15) and HE says the book reading incident involved touching on the breasts and vaginal area. So there’s a discrepancy between the different family members’ reports.

I noticed that too and took it to be the description of a young and very sexually and anatomically ignorant child trying to describe where she was touched and not really possessing the vocabulary to differentiate between vulva/vagina and buttocks, as she's probably been taught that both her buttocks and vulva/vagina fall under "privates." That may account for the discrepancy. I dunno, I imagine that Jim Bob spoke at length with Josh about where he fondled her and probably has a more adult understanding of exactly what happened. 

Going through the police reports and threads now, after I've earned my bachelor's of social work and master's of social work, is even more stomach-churning than the first time. Jim Bob and Michelle failed their daughters and, imho, Anna, repeatedly and in the worst possible way. They're truly the worst kind of people and if there is a hell, they're going to find it mighty cozy. 

Edited May 27, 2019 by ViolaSebastian

[Smee]

3 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

I noticed that too and took it to be the description of a young and very sexually and anatomically ignorant child trying to describe where she was touched and not really possessing the vocabulary to differentiate between vulva/vagina and buttocks, as she's probably been taught that both her buttocks and vulva/vagina fall under "privates." That may account for the discrepancy. I dunno, I imagine that Jim Bob spoke at length with Josh about where he fondled her and probably has a more adult understanding of exactly what happened. 

Yes, on reflection I’m inclined to think Jim Bob’s account would be more accurate. Especially given that these reports were made such a long time after the actual incidents.

However, again, Anna (who is knee-deep in kool-aid and small children) is more likely to look for the version that she can downplay as much as possible. MY interpretation of the older girls being asleep is that he was intentional about choosing a time when they were vulnerable and couldn’t stop him or tell anyone. THEIR interpretation is apparently that it wasn’t a big deal because it wasn’t violent enough to wake them. Anna being Anna I expect interprets everything as favourably towards Josh as she possibly can.