Josh, Anna, the M' kids Part 20: Girl Needs Some Serious Therapy

[nickelodeon]

41 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Please keep in mind, Jim Bob and Michelle continued to push the "you must dress modestly or else be responsible for stirring unrighteous desires in men" line to their daughters AFTER all of this had happened. 

That makes me see red! As does their bragging about how they tell their kids the old used bike/spit in a cup analogies, while fully conscious that their kids suffered childhood sexual abuse! Quoting from A Love That Multiplies for posterity:

Quote

"I'm sure you would still be grateful for the bike, and you would have fun riding it, but it won't be in the condition your parents had hoped and dreamed it would be when you received it. You would miss out on a lot of the enjoyment they meant for you to have.

In that same way, we don't want any boy (or girl) to come and steal your purity. It's vital to be patient and wait for the one God has for you and to not 'play around' in situations where you could be tempted to compromise your purity. What kind of gift do you want to be for your future spouse?"

AAAAAAAAGH

[viii]

I had never read the full summaries before, and now that I have... I wish I hadn't. I know I am a lot more lenient on Josh than a lot of people, because I was also raised in a cult and I understand firsthand how devastating it can be, and how it stunts your maturity. However, after reading those reports, I'm going to be a lot less vocal in defending Josh, since while there is some to defend, it doesn't always need to be said.  

[Kelsey]

I don't think JB and Michelle are responsible for the first instances of molesting but I do think they bear responsibility for any instances and additional victims after they became aware of the problem and failed to do anything to protect the girls from the escalation. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, Kelsey said:

I don't think JB and Michelle are responsible for the first instances of molesting but I do think they bear responsibility for any instances and additional victims after they became aware of the problem and failed to do anything to protect the girls from the escalation. 

Completely agree.  I am not giving them a pass on being complicit in the molestation ....just that their culty parenting didn’t make him a molester to begin with.

and for adding the psychological mindfuck of continuing the victim blaming girls for that Nike shit and reinforcing how it’s up to women to protect men from their base urges...for that they’ll have to answer in hell, IMO.

[lizzybee]

I know I read everything when it all happened, but time definitely made it fuzzy for me. My memories seem to have excluded anything but the touching in bed. Rereading the predatory cornering in the laundry room and the fingering a five year old really has me feeling super sick to my stomach. Six someones now call that man daddy. Horrible. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

So here’s a question no one here can answer...

Does she think about it?  I don’t know him and his name or a pic is instantly associated with child molester to me.  I would imagine it’s not to her, but does it cross her mind?

that bump throwback pic she posted not long ago - does she see herself posing with two of her husbands victims?  

Or has she so rationalized it that it’s a non- issue for her?

 

[lizzybee]

If I had to hazard a guess she’s got that thing where you know someone so well for other things that it’s hard to conceptualise them outside of the person you know. She calls him the love of her life. It’s like when someone murders someone and they interview the killer’s mother. She’s always like “he has always been such a sweet, loving boy.” Or how a woman can reason away that her abuser isn’t really an abuser because they “love” each other and he only hit her just the once. I think Anna is blinded and I wouldn’t be surprised to know she does a lot of mental gymnastics to purposely stay blinded. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by lizzybee

[TuringMachine]

6 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

So here’s a question no one here can answer...

Does she think about it?  I don’t know him and his name or a pic is instantly associated with child molester to me.  I would imagine it’s not to her, but does it cross her mind?

that bump throwback pic she posted not long ago - does she see herself posing with two of her husbands victims?  

Or has she so rationalized it that it’s a non- issue for her?

What about when she looks at Mackynzie? Does she ever think about how she's about the same age (or older?) than Jinger was when he assaulted her?

[JordynDarby5]

44 minutes ago, Kelsey said:

I don't think JB and Michelle are responsible for the first instances of molesting but I do think they bear responsibility for any instances and additional victims after they became aware of the problem and failed to do anything to protect the girls from the escalation. 

Yes, they are responsible for failing to do anything after they found out about he molested someone. That makes them equally as responsible as Josh. They knew and did nothing. In the end all they did was send him away for a few months. They didn't get help for the victims, they didn't get help or have Josh checked out by professionals. Its infuriating that they did nothing and will never be held accountable for it.  All three got away scot free. Then went onto tell the world how they were better parents, and how he was the best Christian father, brother, son and everyone should look up to him. And having the gall to accuse other groups of being molesters. Of course when it was outted making two victims go on TV and defend him, then going on TV to pat themselves on the back on what a good job they did.

[viii]

22 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

So here’s a question no one here can answer...

Does she think about it?  I don’t know him and his name or a pic is instantly associated with child molester to me.  I would imagine it’s not to her, but does it cross her mind?

that bump throwback pic she posted not long ago - does she see herself posing with two of her husbands victims?  

Or has she so rationalized it that it’s a non- issue for her?

 

No, I doubt she thinks about it very much these days. I think in the beginning when the news first came out it was constantly on her mind, but now that it's been a couple of years and she has made the decision to forgive him, her blinders are back on and I don't think she dwells on it. She wouldn't praise him the way she does if she did. 

[JordynDarby5]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

I think this issue will come up every time Anna gets pregnant. It triggers the past abuse.

I think your right. Because it is so hard to believe that anyone would stay with married to a molester, let alone have more children with someone who molested 5 girls. Most people have the sense to bolt from, get a divorce and keep their kids away from him. Most realize that Anna's been brainwashed her whole life but its still hard to believe she stays and keeps having children with him. Josh has never been examined by professionals, he's never been evaluated by anyone, and most people know just by watching the news how molesters rarely stop. They have to be stopped. There's a reason they have to be registered because the good chances of reoffending and they usually have a lot of victims. Each announcement is just another reminder of how sick it all is and what he's done before. A reminder that he's never been checked out and all we have is the Duggars word that he's "okay".   

[lizzybee]

My grandfather is a pedophile and did unspeakable things to his daughters, was unfaithful to his wife, has children all over. He's a living monster. My grandparents never separated, they're still together. My mother said she had to come to terms with the fact that they really were in love...or something. It's like this big, gross family secret that no one wants to talk about. They're all very religious, of course. One of the saddest things I ever heard my mom say about faith and forgiveness was that she wasn't interested in heaven if that's where he was going, she didn't want to be where he was. Even the idea of forgiveness through faith is harmful for a victim of awful things because when someone has done the inexcusable no one should ever ask you to excuse them.  

Interestingly, when the first Josh scandal came out, she and I were discussing it, and about how he'd allegedly "reformed" his life. She told me, that isn't all, there will be more because people like that don't change. Scandal 2 happened not long after. Gotta hand it to her, she wasn't wrong. 

[Palimpsest]

47 minutes ago, viii said:

I had never read the full summaries before, and now that I have... I wish I hadn't. I know I am a lot more lenient on Josh than a lot of people, because I was also raised in a cult and I understand firsthand how devastating it can be, and how it stunts your maturity. However, after reading those reports, I'm going to be a lot less vocal in defending Josh, since while there is some to defend, it doesn't always need to be said.  

Others have already weighed in on this, but the cult and its teachings absolutely share some of the responsibility for failing to protect the victims.   In this case and many others.

It is not defending Josh to point out that responsibility.  It needs to be said.

Do patriarchal cults create predators like Josh?  Not necessarily, but they certainly create an atmosphere in which male predators have easy access to female victims, where victims are shamed into silence and told that they bear responsibility for tempting their abuser, and where predators are protected rather than punished. 

IBLP is such a cult.  Michelle and JB were following cult rules when they failed to intervene with Josh immediately after the first episode  They consulted the elders at their church and other IBLP members.

And they followed that advice .  They did not get professional intervention, they finally sent  Josh away for religions reprogramming at an IBLP site.  They tried to scare him  straight by having him talk to a "friend"  -- former State Trooper, Joseph Hutchens.  The now convicted felon serving a long sentence for child pornography.  Fan-bloody-tastic.

And then they bought their little predator back into the home where his victims were made to bow down to the superior male being and forgive him.

Finally, months later the whistle was blown on them.  Because some insider found a letter and made an official report.  And the family is investigated.  After the SOL had run out on Josh's crimes.   

Did all that culty "religious therapy: cure Josh?  Of course not.  Did he get charged after the investigation?  No.  Did he get proper intervention then?  No.  He walked away arrogance intact.

He goes on to have an issue with porn and try, if not actually succeed (I can't remember), to cheat on his wife through Ashley Madison.  And then the shit hit the fan with the disclosure of the police reports and Ashley Madison.

 We don't know what he is now, but I ponder whether he is a sex addict as well as a sex offender.   And I doubt his "treatment" at Jesus Rehab would help a whole lot.   Poor Anna.  She's brainwashed into staying with him and probably popping out babies because that will "save" her marriage and it is her duty to have unprotected sex with Josh.

For newer members who may be unaware of IBLP and Gothard's teachings on child sexual abuse I recommend this series of articles.  Trigger warning:  

 https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/08/09/gothard-explains-why-god-allows-child-molestation-part-i/

And about the rampant abuse by Gothard and his predator pals, and all the attempts at covering up the scandal, see the victims' stories at  http://www.recoveringgrace.org/

I won't link to the actual law suit, although it is available on line, because reading it made me ill.

[TuringMachine]

6 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

For newer members who may be unaware of IBLP and Gothard's teachings on child sexual abuse I recommend this series of articles.  Trigger warning:  

 https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/08/09/gothard-explains-why-god-allows-child-molestation-part-i/

And about the rampant abuse by Gothard and his predator pals, and all the attempts at covering up the scandal, see the victims' stories at  http://www.recoveringgrace.org/

I won't link to the actual law suit, although it is available on line, because reading it made me ill.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, if any newer members are under the impression that the Bates are not as bad as the Duggars here, I'd like to take this time to remind everyone that Gil Bates is on the Board of IBLP and in all likelihood was well aware of what Gothard was doing.

[Palimpsest]

11 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

I'd like to take this time to remind everyone that Gil Bates is on the Board of IBLP and in all likelihood  certainly was well aware of what Gothard was doing.  He was an integral part of the cover-up ,and continued victimisation of the victims, along with Stephen Paine, Chad's father, also on the BoD of IBLP.

FTFY.

[nickelodeon]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

It is not defending Josh to point out that responsibility.  It needs to be said.

Do patriarchal cults create predators like Josh?  Not necessarily, but they certainly create an atmosphere in which male predators have easy access to female victims, where victims are shamed into silence and told that they bear responsibility for tempting their abuser, and where predators are protected rather than punished. 

It is definitely worth talking about as it's becoming increasingly clear that the Duggars' circle is crawling with offenders (not just Gothard and Smuggar but Mike Schadt, Caleb Williams, etc. etc.) Christian patriarchy is a haven for abuse.

[Palimpsest]

5 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

Mike Schadt,

Yes, Pastor SOS himself.  I saw that story had come up again.  I think we wait until they are convicted to put them in our Fundie Walk of Shame.  But still ... 

 

[libgirl2]

26 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

It is definitely worth talking about as it's becoming increasingly clear that the Duggars' circle is crawling with offenders (not just Gothard and Smuggar but Mike Schadt, Caleb Williams, etc. etc.) Christian patriarchy is a haven for abuse.

I think it goes beyond Christianity. I think anywhere people, men in particular, are in power, you will find sexual abuse. Christianity and other religions seems to be the safest haven as no one would suspect a Godly man would do something like that and forgiveness is given freely. Look at the Catholic church. 

[Bad Wolf]

Anna said she knew what Josh had done before she married him.

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

Anna said she knew what Josh had done before she married him.

I don't know if that is the truth, she might say that now to show how much she forgave him. I don't think she knew, not that it would have made any difference if she did. I don't feel sorry for her, I feel sorry for those kids. How soon until, God forbid, he does something to one of them? 

[VelociRapture]

4 hours ago, viii said:

I had never read the full summaries before, and now that I have... I wish I hadn't. I know I am a lot more lenient on Josh than a lot of people, because I was also raised in a cult and I understand firsthand how devastating it can be, and how it stunts your maturity. However, after reading those reports, I'm going to be a lot less vocal in defending Josh, since while there is some to defend, it doesn't always need to be said.  

I give you credit for taking the time to look through them. It isn’t easy reading at all - it’s disturbing, gross, heartbreaking, and infuriating. 

2 hours ago, TuringMachine said:

At the risk of beating a dead horse, if any newer members are under the impression that the Bates are not as bad as the Duggars here, I'd like to take this time to remind everyone that Gil Bates is on the Board of IBLP and in all likelihood was well aware of what Gothard was doing.

Erin Paine’s FIL was absolutely aware. He’s a Doctor who “counseled” one of the victims who came forward by telling her to eat a protein bar - I’m assuming because she needed to calm down or something. But the Board, including Paine and Gil, absolutely knew. They knew about the allegations, did nothing, and only dumped Gothard when it became clear he was a true liability. Even then, they really seem to have been more interested in grabbing as much power as possible than actually holding Gothard responsible. 

Chad Paine’s sister, Tabitha (once the Duggar’s live in tutor), also married a convicted sexual offender - I believe he was convicted of raping his female roommate years ago, prior to him “finding Jesus.” The Paines knew he was a convicted sexual offender and they still sold their daughter off to him. Tabitha and Tim disappeared from social media after that became public.

The Kellers apparently knew Josh molested the five girls and still agreed to let Anna court and marry him. If I remember right, Anna or Josh’s parents stated they knew prior to the relationship. 

The Police Officer that “scared Josh straight” was arrested and convicted on child pornography charges (as others have said.)

I believe Caleb Williams, a family friend of the Duggars, was accused of sexually assaulting a teenager (as has also been stated by others.) The Duggars and Bates families were present at the wedding.

I’m likely missing some. That’s still a lot of predators and enablers surrounding the kids and grandkids in both the Duggar and Bates families. 

[Jana814]

Anna did know about what Josh did. I do not think she knew the extent of what he did. I’ve said this before & I’ll say it again. I think her father pushed her into marrying Josh. 

[SassyPants]

Here is 1 time I wish for thread drift. 

[Glasgowghirl]

32 minutes ago, Jana814 said:

Anna did know about what Josh did. I do not think she knew the extent of what he did. I’ve said this before & I’ll say it again. I think her father pushed her into marrying Josh. 

Her father does volunteering for prisons and he probably told her that Josh had repented and she should marry him. 

[Palimpsest]

14 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Here is 1 time I wish for thread drift. 

Why? 

I know it is hard, but we are actually discussing the Evils of Extreme Fundamentalism.  The purpose of Free Jinger.