Josh, Anna, the M' kids Part 20: Girl Needs Some Serious Therapy

[Cleopatra7]

11 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

How desperate would a group need to be to allow themselves to be presented as stupid when it comes to their job, by the way, the only jobs that they’ve been groomed for? If this is the case, the show really needs to end as it would be pretty clear that there is nothing interesting or worthy of having a public show. Is CO actually a comedy? 

To me, the fact that Michelle had no problem serving Charles Stanley, a preacher she claims to have loved for decades, processed food on paper plates is a pretty good indication of the level of her homemaking skills. If you can’t even bother to put the effort in when a man of god stops by, why do it the other 364 days of the year?

[nausicaa]

On 10/22/2019 at 12:45 PM, Giraffe said:

My theory: Michelle’s spacing was “we have sex as often as possible in order to become pregnant as soon as possible.” Other people’s spacing: “we have sex when we have sex and if it leads to pregnancy we have another kid.”

*Michelle & Kelly

Yep. Also, for the latter group: some people have lower sex drives. (Not just women-- I know several women personally who have issues because their sex drives are higher than their husbands'.)

And plenty of couples start to get tired after a few kids and find their sex life fading into the background. Or get overwhelmed for a while with sickness, work, or travel. Or struggle with ED or low testosterone. It happens to plenty of secular couples, so why not Fundies ones too? 

Whenever we do these pregnancy predictions, calculations always seemed to be based on at least 3x a week sex. That's quite a large, variable factor to be taking for granted. 

[Giraffe]

The second generation Duggars may not know chores outside of their jurisdiction.  If one person was a good cook, she probably wasn’t also the go-to bathroom cleaner, etc.  Iirc, early on they talked about how they rotated jurisdictions but my guess is eventually everyone focused on what they were good at or interested in and stopped doing the other stuff. 

[coffeebean7]

On 10/22/2019 at 9:58 AM, viii said:

They must be doing some sort of family planning, though. They've gone 8+ years with each child being born two years apart. That's not natural. 

I'm willing to bet their family planning means they have very little sex until it's time for another baby.

[neurogirl]

I think it's just that Priscilla's fertility returns to normal about a year after giving birth, which seems typical. It may take them a few months to "catch a baby," but this time her fertility returned faster (maybe differences in breastfeeding Destiny?) and/or they just got pregnant faster.

I know its fun to speculate about Bloomin' Onions but I don't think there is any conspiracy. I think she and Anna are both just pretty consistent.

[Audrey2]

6 hours ago, Giraffe said:

The second generation Duggars may not know chores outside of their jurisdiction.  If one person was a good cook, she probably wasn’t also the go-to bathroom cleaner, etc.  Iirc, early on they talked about how they rotated jurisdictions but my guess is eventually everyone focused on what they were good at or interested in and stopped doing the other stuff. 

I'm the oldest of three with a sister five years younger than me and a brother 9 years younger. I will admit that until I got my fast food job in high school I had never cleaned a bathroom as that was my sister's chore. I was very proficient though at drying dishes as that became my chore when I was a second or third grader and continued into High School. (My mom preferred to wash dishes, both because she knew they would be clean to her standards and also so she could have some one-on-one time with me. My sister never really had to do dishes because just before my high school graduation we got a dishwasher.) I was also the daughter that was much more into cooking, as I had taken a couple of meal preparation projects through 4-H as well as 2 years of bread making.  I could definitely see making each daughter the expert in her own area.

I can also see how the Duggar girls would have gotten many fewer good cooking lessons. Remember, Michelle was 17 when she got married and I don't know how much she learn to cook before she was married. Remember to, they pads pretty big financial problems, so they ate a lot of rice and there's the story of Jill taking food into the bathroom so she could eat it. for these two reasons, and because they didn't seem to have a garden when the kids were small, I could see them cooking fewer full meals with fewer vegetables. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Audrey2

[Peaches-n-Beans]

On the way Michelle and Kelly taught their kids to cook, to me it seemed that they were being taught to cook this way with the idea in mind that the first 10-12 years of their marriage they'd have lots of little kids very close together. It never seemed to have occurred to either of them that there's a pretty big difference in letting god/nature decide how often and how many you have kids and being quiverfull. Given that both Kelley and Michelle were quiverfull (and I'll be honest I don't know about how fast Kelley had kids, I don't follow the bates, but Michelle was consistently pregnant within a year after each baby for a LONG time) AND both (especially Michelle) realized that "hey I can't make my daughters do things until they're like 10 because low and behold girls don't come out of the womb knowing how to be little mommies" It seems to me like they were prepping their daughters for at least a decade of having to do everything  for up to 10 people. Their daughters just happened to choose not to actively be quiverfull (And I wouldn't call any of them quiverfull since they do truly seem to be using their bodies NATURAL rhythyms rather then actively trying to get pregnant by doing things like weaning their six month old so their fertility comes back) or maybe they simply decided "hell no I'm not doing that, I can still keep up the fundy thing without having 10 kids in 10 years." And thus have realized the work load, while heavy isn't nearly like what their mothers were dealing with and they do in fact have time to learn more nutritious cooking methods and can put quality into things. 

[Giraffe]

It is interesting that none of the offspring seem to be on the 20 kids track. Almost as though even the fundiest of them realized how utterly insane that was!
 

I can’t know if any of them are envious of Michelle’s fertility, but I don’t imagine anyone except perhaps Josie thought having 18 siblings was the best thing ever. Of those who are currently procreating, it’ll be interesting who’s still getting pregnant 7-10 years from now. Anna & her husband may be the only ones who hit 10. 

[tabitha2]

I am  sure most of them will end up with between 8 and 10 kids. 

[SorenaJ]

At what point is it okay to speculate about a pregnancy based on a woman's body? If it's not okay in general, why is it okay with Priscilla? 

[Giraffe]

21 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

At what point is it okay to speculate about a pregnancy based on a woman's body? If it's not okay in general, why is it okay with Priscilla? 

Not okay in general = don’t ask someone irl or online if they’re pregnant. Ever. 
 

Here? This is a forum about fundies, many of whom make having a ridiculously large family part of their identity so there’s understandably a lot of “is she/isn’t she?” Skip the baby thread if you don’t want the speculations, read it if you do. 
 

I normally don’t get into “is she/isn’t she” because I’m going to find out eventually one way or the other. However, I made an exception when it came to Priscilla because (imo) it’s obvious she’s pregnant. 
 

[BadMurphy]

1 hour ago, SorenaJ said:

At what point is it okay to speculate about a pregnancy based on a woman's body? If it's not okay in general, why is it okay with Priscilla? 

Usually I don’t think it’s ok but in that clip of Priscilla she is super thin and toned everywhere but her bump-there’s simply no question. 

[AprilQuilt]

8 hours ago, Giraffe said:

It is interesting that none of the offspring seem to be on the 20 kids track. Almost as though even the fundiest of them realized how utterly insane that was!
 

I can’t know if any of them are envious of Michelle’s fertility, but I don’t imagine anyone except perhaps Josie thought having 18 siblings was the best thing ever. Of those who are currently procreating, it’ll be interesting who’s still getting pregnant 7-10 years from now. Anna & her husband may be the only ones who hit 10. 

I'm not surprised that most of the couples seem to be slowing down. They all throw themselves into snagging that validating honeymoon baby, then once they have one or two realise that it's crazy hard work and maybe the prize is getting to enjoy the babies they have rather than in racking up the highest number in the shortest time. It seems like once they get a taste of a normal-sized home where they and their spouse make the decisions, where they don't have to raise their voices to be heard or hide food in order to enjoy it, where they have shoes that BELONG EXPRESSLY TO THEM, they realise that having a billion jillion kids is not actually what they want.

And honestly, I doubt Michelle will even be that disappointed. It just means that even now her childbearing years are over, she is still the best at it.

. 

[neurogirl]

13 hours ago, Giraffe said:

It is interesting that none of the offspring seem to be on the 20 kids track. Almost as though even the fundiest of them realized how utterly insane that was!
 

I can’t know if any of them are envious of Michelle’s fertility, but I don’t imagine anyone except perhaps Josie thought having 18 siblings was the best thing ever. Of those who are currently procreating, it’ll be interesting who’s still getting pregnant 7-10 years from now. Anna & her husband may be the only ones who hit 10. 

While I agree with you Giraffe that none of the kids will actually hit 19, more of them are at least "on track" on hit 10+

In the midst of so-called Babygeddon, Duggar Data predicts these quiver sizes: 

(https://duggardata.tumblr.com/post/187719966525/by-demand-esoq-update)

Josh + Anna   12 Children

John + Abbie   8 Children 

Jill + Derick   10 Children

Jessa + Ben   13 Children

Jinger + Jeremy   11 Children

Joe + Kendra   19 Children 

Josiah + Lauren   16 Children

Joy + Austin   Prediction Withheld.

 

Zach + Whitney   10 Children

Michaela + Brandon   Prediction Withheld.

Erin + Chad   14 Children

Alyssa + John   18 Children 

Tori + Bobby   17 Children

Carlin + Evan   21 Children 

Josie + Kelton   22 Children

[Giraffe]

@neurogirl, thanks for posting that info. I’ll give them the twelve for Anna & spouse. All the others* I have hope - perhaps delusionally so - that the others will wake up and agree their lives with fewer kids are better than 10+. The can’t all have that many kids, right? Right??? 
 

I’m usually cynical when it comes to these families & their lack of birth control but for some baseless reason I’m optimistic about most** second generation having fewer kids  (Fewer = 5 or so?). 

 

*Duggars. I don’t care enough about the Bates’ to have any opinion of their childbearing numbers.
**Siren I can see trying for 20. 

[xenobia]

The couple I think will end up with most kids is Joe and Kendra. They seem content with the fundie lifestyle and started early. Kendra also had a hospital birth with no complications (as far as we know), and that also gives her better odds to have a large quiver. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by xenobia
crappy spelling

[BadMurphy]

On 10/25/2019 at 5:17 PM, neurogirl said:

While I agree with you Giraffe that none of the kids will actually hit 19, more of them are at least "on track" on hit 10+

In the midst of so-called Babygeddon, Duggar Data predicts these quiver sizes: 

(https://duggardata.tumblr.com/post/187719966525/by-demand-esoq-update)

Josh + Anna   12 Children

John + Abbie   8 Children 

Jill + Derick   10 Children

Jessa + Ben   13 Children

Jinger + Jeremy   11 Children

Joe + Kendra   19 Children 

Josiah + Lauren   16 Children

Joy + Austin   Prediction Withheld.

 

Zach + Whitney   10 Children

Michaela + Brandon   Prediction Withheld.

Erin + Chad   14 Children

Alyssa + John   18 Children 

Tori + Bobby   17 Children

Carlin + Evan   21 Children 

Josie + Kelton   22 Children

I’m surprised that didn’t take into account that Alyssa has said on Instagram she doesn’t plan on having tons of kids, she sounds pretty satisfied with managing the 3 she has now

[lumpentheologie]

31 minutes ago, BadMurphy said:

I’m surprised that didn’t take into account that Alyssa has said on Instagram she doesn’t plan on having tons of kids, she sounds pretty satisfied with managing the 3 she has now

Duggar Data seems to take an "actions speak louder than words" approach.  As she should. 

Although @neurogirl correctly pointed out that the Predictor currently expects a ton of kids for most of the couples, Duggar Data doesn't think most of them will actually get to those numbers.  Except for Anna and now Erin, we don't have more than a 1-3 data points for any of the couples, which makes predicting with accuracy pretty hard. 

And besides predicting what their quiverfull fertility will be, there's no way to predict whether they'll decide to stop at some point. I doubt all 38 second-gen Duggars and Batses will be having kids until the end of their natural fertility.  Jill Duggar is probably already preventing, and I think she won't have more than 6 kids. 

[FaithAndReason]

On 10/25/2019 at 11:11 AM, SorenaJ said:

At what point is it okay to speculate about a pregnancy based on a woman's body? If it's not okay in general, why is it okay with Priscilla? 

These are people who spend their lives making money off of being the godliest bc they “leave it up to God” to determine their family size. Their whole public personas are wrapped up in baby making. That alone invites and justifies speculation, in my book. If they were shilling, say, anything else, then no. But when baby making is your schtick, then the public will speculate 

[Melissa1977]

On 10/25/2019 at 5:11 PM, SorenaJ said:

At what point is it okay to speculate about a pregnancy based on a woman's body? If it's not okay in general, why is it okay with Priscilla? 

I agree but she's thin and the belly shape is exactly like a several-months-pregnant looks. It's so obvious in this case that I find the comments normal. It's like if Alyssa Bates would  appear with a round belly, 100% it would mean baby on board.

I know that kind of comments shouldn't be done, but somehow I understand doing it when there's no doubt about an actual pregnancy.

[Beermeet]

On 5/21/2019 at 7:16 PM, Angelface said:

I’ve always suspected that Josh would prefer a smaller family.  Anna, however, has made no secret of the fact that she wants “as many as God sends”. I wonder if Josh might have drawn the line at four but then all the scandals came to light.  The joyous time after the birth of a healthy baby was spoilt for Anna when Josh’s past behaviour and then current Ashley Madison affair was discovered and publicised. I can understand Anna’s desire to have another baby after Meredith and after Josh’s return from “rehab”, she was cheated out of the joy of a new baby by Josh’s behaviour and had to be a single parent whilst he was reforming himself. Perhaps part of their “deal” is that Josh had to agree to more children in order for Anna to forgive him. She appears to be a good mother and homemaker and to genuinely love and want her children. I hope that at the very most they stop at eight rather than keep adding to their brood. Josh needs to find some business venture that he can throw himself into and be challenged and develop and grow. His past behaviour was atrocious. His future just seems so mundane and boring. He needs to find some dreams. 

I just started reading this thread but, wanted to say that Anna in the beginning Really wanted to be just like Michelle.  Maybe not the weening at 3 months to get pregnant asap but in every other way.  She was the first to produce a grandchild.  Went with a letter naming system, got the adoring gaze down pat, all of it mirrored JB and M.  Except Josh was no business savvy dedicated husband who clearly loves his wife and family like JB does.  Anna also grew up in near poverty, parents with no dependable income living in a small trailer with quite a few people.  Josh must've seemed a dream come true.  I think she thought Jpest would be just like his father.  Gravy life on TV. Lots of money. She would get to be the next Michelle.   Poor thing.  None of that happened.  So, she decided to stay no matter what became she made a pact with God on her wedding day.  And, she loves her children so, she can focus on that.  I totally can see her negotiating more kids and Jpest's parents backing up this though.  Go through the motions.  All is for the glory of their twisted version of god. 

Something that bothers me in this ( well, a lot bothers me) is the Ashley Madison profile Jpest created.  His descriptions of what he wanted were pretty vanilla.  Like, what?  He can't have a bubble bath and cuddling with his wife?  I feel pretty positive Anna would like this as well.  Woman to woman, we like this stuff, our husbands do too.  There was nothing sordid about his wants.  I come away from that as he doesn't want those things with her.  And, ouch!  I mean, let's say my husband made an account on AM, I  better see some kinky shit I won't do or he wants a man because damn, a list with "normal" sexual wants would sting.  They maybe do all those things but he wants it with other women cause he never sowed some oats.  

But, I have no sympathy for Jpest. He molested his sisters and another. So, it's all up in the air. There is more going on with him than some lust because he wasn't allowed to date and have sex before marriage.  

Sorry for the book, I guess I have to go back to my chores now. Can't stall anymore!  

[just_ordinary]

I don’t think most will hit the Duggar Data numbers. 

There is a huge difference between tracking your cycles to get pregnant and just having sex whenever. 

Michelle and Kelly aren’t the norm, that’s why they have tv shows. Not only did they get pregnant pretty easily for years and years, they also have both an astonishing lack of miscarriages.

For the daughters we shouldn’t forget about the background of the husbands. Derick and Jeremy will probably put a stop to it at one point. Ben seems to happy for now, but it will be interesting what he decides after two more. But from my perspective they are so dependent on her family, maybe it doesn’t matter. Bobby, Kelton and Evan are quite a blank page for me. John seems to be more influenced by his own family. Chad, while being presented as devoted and Prince Charming is the only son in law that I see to be into the concept of eleventy children. Austin is a bit of a wild card for me.

Alyssa has a serious medical condition to recover from and Erin’s condition, while perfectly treatable could still produce some long term side effects over time (heparin affects your calcium depots after six weeks). 

The Duggar boys are going to be interesting. We have no real clue how they plan on supporting their families. And while JB seems to be (surprisingly) pretty good with money, I just cannot believe he is able to provide for all of them (be it money or work or housing).

I think 10 will not be a standard number around the second generation. 4-8 is my guess will be the majority.

Even Josh and Anna might not hit double digits. He is so not into it, this might slow them down a lot.

[Dandruff]

23 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

I don’t think most will hit the Duggar Data numbers.

Nor do I.  The show has clearly provided a better standard of living for JB, M, and kids, but I highly doubt that it can/would substantially support dozens (or hundreds) more Duggars.  If some of the kids are essentially self-supporting then maybe they'd be comfortable with a lot of kids.  I find it hard to imagine most of them being willing to sacrifice comforts for a huge family, though.  I doubt their average will exceed about 6-8.

[Giraffe]

I think it was Mr Atheist who mentioned a surprising number of Mormons seem to experience “infertility” at the 6 kid mark. Still 3x (or more) more than the national average, but way less than 15-20. I expect (I hope!) that’s what happens with 2nd gen offspring* and that they decide fewer is better. 

*Without saying they’re dealing with infertility if they’re not!

Edited October 27, 2019 by Giraffe
Clarifying

[Peaches-n-Beans]

8 hours ago, Giraffe said:

I think it was Mr Atheist who mentioned a surprising number of Mormons seem to experience “infertility” at the 6 kid mark. Still 3x (or more) more than the national average, but way less than 15-20. I expect (I hope!) that’s what happens with 2nd gen offspring* and that they decide fewer is better. 

*Without saying they’re dealing with infertility if they’re not!

That doesn't surprise me about Mormons, and yes I think it was Mr. Atheist (I love his channel). I don't see why they wouldn't be open with using NFP* to prevent a pregnancy, plenty of large catholic families do that (I grew up catholic so that's what I know). It wouldn't technically go against their believes of using birth control AND they could spout some "Holier then thou for having more self control over sinful sexual desire" line. We all know how much the Duggars love being able to imply they're holier then you. 

*NFP= Natural Family Planning. Technically it's the exact same thing Michelle did only instead of having sex on fertile days to get pregnant you track ovulation, body temperature, ect. so you know what days NOT to have sex.