Josh, Anna, the M' kids Part 20: Girl Needs Some Serious Therapy

[Laura2730]

Has anyone read this new article: https://radaronline.com/exclusives/2019/06/former-church-member-tells-all-josh-duggar-punishment-molestation-scandal/ ? I can't access it from the UK

[BachelorToTheRapture]

4 minutes ago, Laura2730 said:

Has anyone read this new article: https://radaronline.com/exclusives/2019/06/former-church-member-tells-all-josh-duggar-punishment-molestation-scandal/ ? I can't access it from the UK

I just read it. It claims an anonymous source, and that website is not known for always being truthful. It's similar to what we already know. The source claims that the church fell apart after the scandal, Josh's head was shaved in front of everyone and he cried. It claims that they convinced him to have his head shaved by threatening to shave the head of one of his victims instead. Says he went away with the man they knew to recover, and that there were incidents after it was found out about. It also says that he wasnt allowed to play with other kids and was socially isolated after the molestations. 

Again, I dont want to take what an anonymous radar online source says as fact, but all of that seems very similar to what we already know, though I had not heard about the social isolation before. Does anyone know if that's true in this case or commonly practiced after such incidents in their community? It doesn't seem like it from what I know.

[justmy2cents]

My friend's husband has a first cousin with the same first and middle names. There are twenty something cousins and they're all close. I guess sharing names wasn't odd in their family.

[Jana814]

I have 2 friends who are sisters. Both of their sons have the same middle name.  They were named for different family members on their husbands sides of the family. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

51 minutes ago, BachelorToTheRapture said:

It claims that they convinced him to have his head shaved by threatening to shave the head of one of his victims instead. 

What the actual fuck?

is this a thing?  Anyone who has been inside these circles know if this is something they did?

even if it was an empty threat the terror and mindfuck for that poor girl.  To have a physical marker of what happened.

[Zebedee]

@FluffySnowball Yes, it was 31 or 32 C here yesterday. I mainly spent the day driving with the AC up high. And cursing all the holiday drivers overtaking caravans doing 80kph at...90kph. On the Autobahn. I don't typically drive at 180kph, but let's just say that journey was almost twice as long as usual (straight, usually empty road).

On the way back, we had a nice S German Alpine thunderstorm. But it still took the same length of time, despite me (and almost everyone else) driving extremely carefully (and bah to the people who overtake you at 85 when you're doing 80, then pull in straight in front of you, and especially when you can barely see the car in front. I did a full right lane hogging thing with others doing exactly the same speed - about 80 - and keeping a huge distance between us). As I drove into my town, the humidity was about 95, and the temp about 30. I spent the rest of the evening listening to the thunder on the balcony and drinking delicious cold German beer!

These people *love* to go on about how each child is special and individual. For most of us, that's true. But I see absolutely no evidence of that in the way that, say, they claim every woman wants to submit if godly, have millions of children etc, that every man wants to have 10 kids in a 3 bed house  by the time they are 30. In fact, even when they are adults, every tribute is "godly husband and provider", "Jesus loving godly wife and mother". They might all as well swap kids and spouses on a regular basis for all the difference it would seem to make to them. OTOH, perhaps the fact that they know every child is a unique individual is why they double down so hard on "education" and not teaching critical thinking - they absolutely know that, if they gave their kids basic tools to face the real world, and didn't brainwash and isolate them, that they'd leave. (Of course, this mainly is directed at the parents who had normal upbringings and forced this crap on their kids, or the spouses who had relatively mainstream childhoods, but like the benefits of a fundie (probably wife) partner).

When any of the Duggars et al actually allows a child to be individual, explore likes/dislikes (not pickles) talents etc, I might soften my views on them a little. Right now, the baby girls coming are just potential domestic doormats primed to accept marital rape, and the boys are future sperm donors and wage earners, in my most optimistic views. And that's tragic. 

[nausicaa]

37 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

What the actual fuck?

is this a thing?  Anyone who has been inside these circles know if this is something they did?

even if it was an empty threat the terror and mindfuck for that poor girl.  To have a physical marker of what happened.

Yeah, I'm...at a loss for words right now. 

[Chewing Gum]

22 hours ago, jillsdopplerofdoom said:

I think it's inevitable that one of the Preggars will give the forename or middle name as Mary. I could see Anna/Josh naming her something like Mary Rose. She will probably end up being a slave for her younger siblings, poor thing. I think it was sweet when Michael hugged Anna though. 

I think there will be two boys and two girls. 

 

I think that's actually a good possibility: two first names, starting with Mary, going by the second first name. 

[nausicaa]

6 hours ago, carmenp97 said:

Mary is the mother of Jesus no matter what faith tradition you subscribe to. Catholics venerate Mary more than other faith tradition and believe some different things about her (that she was and remained a virgin and was born without original sin) but all believe her to be the mother of Christ. Therefore, Mary isn't just a Catholic thing. 

Of course, but that doesn't mean that many Protestants, particularly Evangelicals, don't attempt to distance themselves from mentions of her because of what they perceive as idolatry in the Catholic church. It's silly, but it happens. 

I go to a progressive, high church Episcopalian church now after a Catholic childhood, and am surprised at how little she is ever mentioned or discussed. 

[nickelodeon]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

What the actual fuck?

is this a thing?  Anyone who has been inside these circles know if this is something they did?

even if it was an empty threat the terror and mindfuck for that poor girl.  To have a physical marker of what happened.

The threatened headshaving detail came up in an “interview” that Pickles did with an ex-member of the Duggars’ church last October (I think the same one where Pickles outed the fifth victim, ughh.) Freaky.

[Glasgowghirl]

While I don't take what was published on Radar as fact, I also wouldn't be surprised if this was true. Either way I think publicly shaving Josh's head and making him feel like an outsider and sending him away to do a bit of construction work was not the correct way to deal with it and I'm against children and teens having those types of punishments regardless of what they are accused of because they don't achieve anything, other than humiliation. For them to threaten to do it to one of his Victim's is even crueller and probably made his Victim's scared of being forced to have their hair publicly shaved and stigmatised even more about being an abuse victim.

Didn't Jim Bob and Michelle force Jana to give Jessa a jewelry box after Jana complained about Jessa always kicking her bunk bed and being mean to her. Jana was upset recalling it years later and Jessa probably felt bad about it too. This is another instance showing how much Michelle and Jim Bob suck when it comes to actually parenting their children.

[WarriorJane]

1 hour ago, Glasgowghirl said:

While I don't take what was published on Radar as fact, I also wouldn't be surprised if this was true. Either way I think publicly shaving Josh's head and making him feel like an outsider and sending him away to do a bit of construction work was not the correct way to deal with it and I'm against children and teens having those types of punishments regardless of what they are accused of because they don't achieve anything, other than humiliation. For them to threaten to do it to one of his Victim's is even crueller and probably made his Victim's scared of being forced to have their hair publicly shaved and stigmatised even more about being an abuse victim.

Didn't Jim Bob and Michelle force Jana to give Jessa a jewelry box after Jana complained about Jessa always kicking her bunk bed and being mean to her. Jana was upset recalling it years later and Jessa probably felt bad about it too. This is another instance showing how much Michelle and Jim Bob suck when it comes to actually parenting their children.

If I recall correctly,  and I did not see it on an episode or anything,  only read the account on FJ, Jessa took Jana's music box and JB & M made Jana give it to Jessa to show that she forgave her.  I guess it was a prized possession of Jana's, and it really upset her to give it to Jessa  So much so, that when Jana recounts the incident when speaking at conferences, etc., she still gets choked up about it.  

There was never any indication that Jessa was ever punished for stealing the music box.  Just Jana having to give away something she loved and being made to feel bad about  feeling bad.  Might explain why Jana seems to be in no hurry to raise a giant family,  and why Jessa can be a smug little bitch.  What kind of lesson is that?  These kids really never had a chance.   Fuck Boob and Mechelle.

[Bobology]

Regarding the jewelry box debacle, from personal experience I can tell you that when she was still very young Jana would/might resent Jessa. But only for a short while, because it wouldn't take long for her to realize it was the parents being mean and punitive. Sure, she works hard at forgiveness and keeping sweet because she has been told to, but I'm willing to wager she resents her parents for the jewelry box episode and likely many, many, many more.

[Glasgowghirl]

41 minutes ago, WarriorJane said:

If I recall correctly,  and I did not see it on an episode or anything,  only read the account on FJ, Jessa took Jana's music box and JB & M made Jana give it to Jessa to show that she forgave her.  I guess it was a prized possession of Jana's, and it really upset her to give it to Jessa  So much so, that when Jana recounts the incident when speaking at conferences, etc., she still gets choked up about it.  

There was never any indication that Jessa was ever punished for stealing the music box.  Just Jana having to give away something she loved and being made to feel bad about  feeling bad.  Might explain why Jana seems to be in no hurry to raise a giant family,  and why Jessa can be a smug little bitch.  What kind of lesson is that?  These kids really never had a chance.   Fuck Boob and Mechelle.

The whole thing just sounds horrible. This happened when Jana and Jessa were still relatively young and probably before they had started to use buddy's and blanket training. 

If they couldn't deal with simple things like that, what chance did they have dealing with Josh. 

[apandaaries]

Iirc, Jessa didn’t take it, but she’d been intentionally annoying Jana a lot (kicking the bed when Jana was in it, perhaps?). Upon hearing Jana’s (justified) complaints, Michelle ordered her to give Jessa the treasured box. It seems Michelle was trying to get Jana to “kill her with kindness” and make Jessa rethink her actions. But instead it was yet another shitty parenting move by some of the world’s worst parents.

[justmy2cents]

I remember it a little differently. Jessa was annoying Jana. Michelle told Jana that instead of showing anger and punishing Jessa she should show her love and then a Jessa would be too ashamed to continue annoying her. It was Jana's decision to give Jessa the music box because Jessa would have known how much Jana loved it. Seemed to shame Jessa into behaving from then on.

[WarriorJane]

29 minutes ago, apandaaries said:

Iirc, Jessa didn’t take it, but she’d been intentionally annoying Jana a lot (kicking the bed when Jana was in it, perhaps?). Upon hearing Jana’s (justified) complaints, Michelle ordered her to give Jessa the treasured box. It seems Michelle was trying to get Jana to “kill her with kindness” and make Jessa rethink her actions. But instead it was yet another shitty parenting move by some of the world’s worst parents.

Is that what it was?  I knew it was something like that.   So instead of teaching right from wrong,  they taught them to manipulate each other.  Good job Duggars. 

[marshmallow]

11 hours ago, FluffySnowball said:

 @MadameOvary

So... to return to the topic at hand, I share your opinion, MO, and also feel sorry for Amy and Grandma Mary and anyone in the Duggar clan who had ideas denied or taken over due to story lines and filming requirements.

Completely off topic, but my grandma has the same coffee set, @FluffySnowball (the one with the wild roses). The cake looks really awesome! 

[Giraffe]

Regarding the music box: Jana gets penalized for doing no wrong and Jessa gets rewarded for bad behavior. That pretty much sums up ATI/IBLP. ? 

[MamaMia02]

7 hours ago, Chewing Gum said:

I think that's actually a good possibility: two first names, starting with Mary, going by the second first name. 

Apparently Anna commented on Instagram that they aren't going to use Mary because Meredith also goes by Merry

[frugalitymom]

The head shaving reminds me of one of the early episodes and Josh’s head was shaved.  It all seems to fit together now.

[tabitha2]

That was probably for ALERT though. Some of the other boys had that as well.

[Smee]

Would Radar use Pickles and her anonymous “source” for that article? It all sounds exactly like what Pickles claimed not that long ago, naming the 5th victim but not whoever supposedly told her this. So I’d take it with a grain of salt.

My best friend and her sister both had baby boys within a month of each other, and the cousins have the same middle name, after their grandfather. No one cares. My cousin (dad’s only brother’s only son) has the same first and last name as my dad. It’s a little weird when my cousin likes pages on Facebook like “sex is a form of exercise” but other than that, it’s not drastically impacted anyone’s life or caused a family rift. 

[Palimpsest]

Radar is the worst of yellow journalism and I don't trust them.  They have picked up speculation from here before and reported it as fact.  They could well be quoting Pickles and her "source."

However, let's assume the source is real.

Quote

The church’s way of dealing with it was “awful,” Josh’s former fellow churchgoer revealed to Radar.

“They shaved Josh’s head in front of everyone,” the source said, adding that he was brought to tears because of it.

 

Brought to tears.  And it never occurred to you to report either the molestations or this abusive behaviour towards the perpetrator to the right authorities.  Cry me a river.

Quote

Older men in the church then surrounded Josh and “laid hands on him and started praying for him,” the source said.

“Then they told him he was going to stay with this guy in the church for a while and work on becoming stronger and try to get over his demons, like watching porn” the source continued.

 

This is consistent with the reports that Josh was sent away to help with renovations at the IBLP Little Rock training center.

Quote

The church member claimed that Josh did not want to get his head shaved. He allegedly told former leaders, “I really don’t want to do that,” said the insider.

Why would he.  By the way, head shaving was common practice at Gothard's boot camps for juvenile offenders way back in the 1970s.  Judges would actually sentence juveniles to Gothard's boot camps.  It is how he got his start.  Forcible head shaving It is dehumanising and humiliating whatever your gender. Some of Gothard's early victims tried to sue but failed.

Quote

What’s more is the church members allegedly gave Josh an ultimatum before he finally went through with getting his head shaved. The source claimed to Radar that the elders of the church threatened Josh, claiming that if he did not get his head shaved, one of his victims would instead.

“To punish him into getting [his head shaved], they threatened her,” the church member recalled of Josh and one of his female victims.

Could be true, or could be Pickles.  But absolutely young girls are publicly shamed and humiliated for "tempting" their attackers in many Fundamentalist churches.  See Tina Anderson, as just one example.  This doesn't only happen in Gothardism, although BG has an actual protocol for shaming victims.

Threatening to shave, or actually shaving, a victim's hair is disgusting.  And forcible head shaving of women was practiced in the Third Reich and was used as a punishment for suspected collaborators after WWII.  Lovely church practice there, "source."  I'm so glad your little church fell apart.

7 hours ago, frugalitymom said:

The head shaving reminds me of one of the early episodes and Josh’s head was shaved.  It all seems to fit together now.

In one of the very first Duggar TV specials Josh's hair looked exceptionally short, as though it were growing back in after having been shaved.  But all the boys had very short hair.

5 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

That was probably for ALERT though. Some of the other boys had that as well.

Not ALERT.  The timeline is wrong.  Josh was far too young for ALERT Basic back then and, of all the Duggarlings, Josh is the least likely to have gone to ALERT.  With his known background he wouldn't have made the morality cut.

The boys all supposedly play around at ALERT Cadets (AKA Fundie Boy Scouts), but head shaving is not required for Cadets.

Edited June 22, 2019 by Palimpsest
fixed quotes

[omgpleasestop]

I highly doubt that there will be more than one Mary among any of the Duggar grandchildren.