Josh, Anna, the M' kids Part 20: Girl Needs Some Serious Therapy

[Hisey]

On 5/30/2019 at 11:48 PM, JordynDarby5 said:

Exactly, why take the chance?  He's never been evaluated by anyone qualified. 

There is no professional in the world that can tell you if Josh will re-offend. There’s no magic assessment that can do so, either. In any event, Josh is going to know the right answers to any questions asked.

Evaluating him by a qualified professional aint gonna help. It’s a soft science. No one can tell anything for sure. 

I wouldnt have kids with him, but I am deciding this based on my own gut feeling, not a psychological assessment. 

For those who feel his children are in danger.... have you called CPS? If no, why not?

On 5/30/2019 at 8:17 AM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Hopefully at their ages they don’t have the context to understand exactly what bad things daddy did...but they will someday.

and Anna will have as much to answer for as Josh.  

I don’t think they are going to say, “Your daddy molested his sisters and is a scary bad man,”

No, they’ll say, “Your daddy made mistakes when he was young....he was a little too curious about girls ... but now God has forgiven him and we do too,” 

And that will be that. 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Hisey

[pook]

On 5/30/2019 at 6:39 AM, ViolaSebastian said:

In my experience, kids know. Even young kids. Parents and family talk when they think kids are asleep. They overhear conversations that they aren’t supposed to. They read things that are casually left around—or they get sneaky and seek them out to try to make sense of what the heck is going on in their home. I’d not underestimate what kids potentially know. 

I learned only recently that my father was married before my mother and then after 24 hours of nail biting agony also learned that I do not have any half-siblings.  My father's first wife died on their honeymoon, in a freak accident.  There is a 10 year age gap with respect to my parents and my Dad was in his late 30s when he married my mother (26).  A little odd when you think about it for the early 1970s.  I am in my mid 40s now.  I ALWAYS suspected something was up, little subtle clues like the wedding ring in my father's jewelry box mixed in with the cuff links and old watches.  I asked about it and was told it belonged to my Grandfather and for some reason that didn't sit right with me. My aunt, who is my Dad's only sibling and my favorite Aunt in the world, because we are so alike and I should have pretty much flown out of her uterus, wears a diamond engagement type ring on her pinkie finger.  It's pretty and I have always thought so.  I asked her about it and once and she said "One day I will tell you about this ring, but now is not the time."  I guess my Dad's first wife had tiny fingers.  Another time she made a comment about how I had no idea about what my Dad has been through when I would confide in her about how difficult my Dad could be.  He was quite authoritarian as a parent and I was the first born, so ya. "Over my dead body you are going to pierce your ears because God didn't put holes in you ears so why are we even having this discussion?" Me: "Umm, Dad we don't even go to church." So yes, children sense things very SEVERELY (TM JRod) much.  Fun fact:  When I finally found out about my Dad's first marriage my mother was so relieved because she had been begging him to tell us for years.  Also she said there was a box of his first wedding pictures in the basement.

Edited June 5, 2019 by pook

[VelociRapture]

8 hours ago, pook said:

I learned only recently that my father was married before my mother and then after 24 hours of nail biting agony also learned that I do not have any half-siblings.  My father's first wife died on their honeymoon, in a freak accident.  There is a 10 year age gap with respect to my parents and my Dad was in his late 30s when he married my mother (26).  A little odd when you think about it for the early 1970s.  I am in my mid 40s now.  I ALWAYS suspected something was up, little subtle clues like the wedding ring in my father's jewelry box mixed in with the cuff links and old watches.  I asked about it and was told it belonged to my Grandfather and for some reason that didn't sit right with me. My aunt, who is my Dad's only sibling and my favorite Aunt in the world, because we are so alike and I should have pretty much flown out of her uterus, wears a diamond engagement type ring on her pinkie finger.  It's pretty and I have always thought so.  I asked her about it and once and she said "One day I will tell you about this ring, but now is not the time."  I guess my Dad's first wife had tiny fingers.  Another time she made a comment about how I had no idea about what my Dad has been through when I would confide in her about how difficult my Dad could be.  He was quite authoritarian as a parent and I was the first born, so ya. "Over my dead body you are going to pierce your ears because God didn't put holes in you ears so why are we even having this discussion?" Me: "Umm, Dad we don't even go to church." So yes, children sense things very SEVERELY (TM JRod) much.  Fun fact:  When I finally found out about my Dad's first marriage my mother was so relieved because she had been begging him to tell us for years.  Also she said there was a box of his first wedding pictures in the basement.

It must have been a really traumatic and difficult experience for him if he kept his first marriage secret from you for so long. I’m sorry for the pain he must have experienced and I’m sure it impacted his parenting to some extent. I’m also really sorry you had to experience such confusion and overbearing parenting as you were growing up because of it, but I’m glad you know now too. 

[Eponine]

On 5/31/2019 at 7:00 PM, Cleopatra7 said:

I don’t understand why a boy would be any better than a girl in this lifestyle. Yes, Gothardism is full of soul crushing misogyny

I think you answered your own question there.

In a world where misogyny is the norm it's only really extreme and unusual cases - like you mentioned with men leaving Haredi or Orthodox Judiasm - where men would be worse off. So in a situation where the misogyny is amplified, like in ATI, girls and women are always going to be worse off than boys and men.

In addition to what you mentioned about men having more leeway with sexual impropriety, they have much more opportunity to choose in general: career paths, family structure, theology...hell, according to many fundies men have the opportunity to choose what their wives where. I don't see how it could possibly be argued that men even have it equally as bad as women in ATI. They don't receive good education and their world is very limited, but if you're comparing whether a girl or a boy in general would be better off there? Boy all the way, no question.

(The only way I could see that not being true would be individual cases where the family really wanted girls for whatever reason and was so disappointed in a boy that they treated him particularly poorly.)

[tabitha2]

The problem for the fundie men start when they have an inadequate job  with 5 kids with one on the way in 3 bedroom house and a submissive wife definitely not capable of getting a job. He has to figure it all out on his own. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

12 hours ago, Hisey said:

For those who feel his children are in danger.... have you called CPS? If no, why not?

Way to be completely combative.  You know damn well you can’t do that based on the fact that he’s a child molester without a conviction.  

Otherwise anyone who has seen any media could call.

That doesn’t mean his children are safe.  There is no way to know that from the outside.  But to act as if it’s a ridiculous premise to think children of a known child molester may be in danger is just straight up trolling.

seriously, wtf do you get out of courting negative attention here by your very predictable trolling methods.

FFS isn’t there some discussion somewhere you could enjoy participating in like a decent human being?

9 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

The problem for the fundie men start when they have an inadequate job  with 5 kids with one on the way in 3 bedroom house and a submissive wife definitely not capable of getting a job. He has to figure it all out on his own. 

This.  The pressure to provide financially with no education or means for a never ending brood of kids would terrify me.

[viii]

Does FJ ban trolls? 

[mango_fandango]

This is why so many fundie women go for MLMs or open their own businesses eg modest clothing boutiques. 

What exactly does Turd do nowadays? It may have been mentioned before but I only dip in to the Duggar threads occasionally so am not sure.

6 minutes ago, viii said:

Does FJ ban trolls? 

Yes it does. Members have been banned before for similar reasons. In old threads they’re listed as Shunned. Sometimes they’re sent to the prayer closet where posts (I believe) have to be approved before they can be posted.

[Destiny]

14 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

Yes it does. Members have been banned before for similar reasons. In old threads they’re listed as Shunned. Sometimes they’re sent to the prayer closet where posts (I believe) have to be approved before they can be posted.

No we do not. We only have a couple of banning offences: doxing and making sock accounts. Trolling may lead to other consequences, but not a ban. 

Judicious use of the ignore and downvote buttons are your best bet for dealing with a troll.

ETA: I think being harassing and abusive to helpmeets on an ongoing basis (not just one time anger spouting off) may now be on that list thanks to OR and her cronies and Al, but I’m not in a position to go reread the rules at the moment and that has never happened to my knowledge. 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Destiny
More words

[mango_fandango]

Whoops. My bad. I should’ve checked! I’m not a helpmeet so I probably shouldn’t be talking about board rules 

[Destiny]

1 minute ago, mango_fandango said:

Whoops. My bad. I should’ve checked! I’m not a helpmeet so I probably shouldn’t be talking about board rules 

You’re good. There is just this conspiracy theory with FJ detractors that banning for dissent is a thing, and that could not be less true, so I attempt to set that particular record straight when appropriate.

[freshlemonade]

My guess (and this is only a guess) is that Anna has compartmentalized all thoughts about Josh's wrongdoing, worry's about her children suffering the same way as her sisters-in-law, fears of him straying, etc. and pushed it to the back of her brain and filled her thoughts with God and praying and duty.   Plus she has 5 small children and has been pregnant or had a newborn for most of the time since the scandals hit.  She's got to be exhausted.  Not just physically, but mentally too.  She keeps house, cares for her kids (just thinking of getting 5 kids into carseats to leave the house exhausts me), keeps up relationships with family and friends (and even if she loves the Duggars, in-laws are rarely super-easy to deal with), home schools, etc. all the while trying  to be present and pleasing for her husband.   She's too tired to even let her mind go there with Josh's past. 

[Smee]

17 hours ago, pook said:

I learned only recently that my father was married before my mother and then after 24 hours of nail biting agony also learned that I do not have any half-siblings.  My father's first wife died on their honeymoon, in a freak accident.  There is a 10 year age gap with respect to my parents and my Dad was in his late 30s when he married my mother (26).  A little odd when you think about it for the early 1970s.  I am in my mid 40s now.  I ALWAYS suspected something was up, little subtle clues like the wedding ring in my father's jewelry box mixed in with the cuff links and old watches.  I asked about it and was told it belonged to my Grandfather and for some reason that didn't sit right with me. My aunt, who is my Dad's only sibling and my favorite Aunt in the world, because we are so alike and I should have pretty much flown out of her uterus, wears a diamond engagement type ring on her pinkie finger.  It's pretty and I have always thought so.  I asked her about it and once and she said "One day I will tell you about this ring, but now is not the time."  I guess my Dad's first wife had tiny fingers.  Another time she made a comment about how I had no idea about what my Dad has been through when I would confide in her about how difficult my Dad could be.  He was quite authoritarian as a parent and I was the first born, so ya. "Over my dead body you are going to pierce your ears because God didn't put holes in you ears so why are we even having this discussion?" Me: "Umm, Dad we don't even go to church." So yes, children sense things very SEVERELY (TM JRod) much.  Fun fact:  When I finally found out about my Dad's first marriage my mother was so relieved because she had been begging him to tell us for years.  Also she said there was a box of his first wedding pictures in the basement.

I’m so sorry, that sounds really traumatic for everyone involved. I was about 15 when I discovered that my father had been married before and it was such a weirdly flippant delivery of this news from my parents. We were driving somewhere and somehow the conversation moved to my mum’s first fiancé, who she was with when she met my dad.

Me, to dad: do you feel bad that you broke up a marriage?

Mum: we broke up two marriages

me: what? Dad was engaged too??

Mum: he was married

my sister (17) : wait, what???

me: for how long?

Dad: about a year and a half

me (realising my brother was born about 16 months after my parents’ marriage): did you have any children???

They didn’t, so no secret half-siblings. But when we got home, I announced this new information to my 19yr old brother and he didn’t believe me until dad confirmed it. It seemed like kind of big information to not know for so long, but on the other hand, how and when do you bring that up? 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Smee
Fixing a stray emoji

[twoandthrough]

Not a secret marriage, but my husband's parents didn't tell him he was a sperm donor baby until he was in his 20s! We were dating at the time but not yet married, and it was SHOCKING news. His parents had tried to conceive for 7-8 years and finally decided to use a sperm donor. His (non-bio, I guess) dad had polio as a child, so he was infertile (or at least that's what they told him during all of this). 

His parents divorced when he was 8 years old, and his dad never wanted him to find out. His mom finally caved. When his dad was in the hospital dying a few years ago, my husband DID end up telling him he knew because he couldn't NOT say anything. Even his aunts, uncles, etc. had NO idea! 

To each their own, I guess, but that is NOT how I would go about things. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using a sperm donor (or IVF or anything), but I would certainly not hide it from my child. I was appalled, frankly, but my husband didn't take it too hard. He kind of brushed it off and said, "my dad is my dad - this doesn't change anything." We looked into the fertility clinic they used, and of course they're closed now. He decided not to pursue trying to find out who is biological father is because he says he doesn't care and it wouldn't change anything. Plus, it was probably anonymous, done in the 80's. However, it KILLS me because he's an only child, and I would LOVE to know if he has any half-siblings out there. And a medical background would be nice, too. 

[JDuggs]

35 minutes ago, twoandthrough said:

He decided not to pursue trying to find out who is biological father is because he says he doesn't care and it wouldn't change anything. Plus, it was probably anonymous, done in the 80's. However, it KILLS me because he's an only child, and I would LOVE to know if he has any half-siblings out there. And a medical background would be nice, too. 

If your husband does the DNA stuff on ancestry.com, he possibly could find some relatives.

[CharlieInCharge]

Might I suggest doing a DNA test? I don’t want to go into detail, but I had two close friends find their bio parents through Ancestry’s test and website. One actually got matched directly to their bio dad and was able to get into contact. It’s not a perfect solution, but it’s a viable option if you wanted to try it. Make sure you read some articles about finding family this way, it can be a roller coaster. Good luck, regardless! 

Edited June 5, 2019 by CharlieInCharge
Posted at the same time as JDuggs, whoops!

[twoandthrough]

13 minutes ago, JDuggs said:

If your husband does the DNA stuff on ancestry.com, he possibly could find some relatives.

He won't do one of those because he doesn't want to be tracked for insurance purposes later in life. IDK the validity to that, but he won't do it. 

12 minutes ago, CharlieInCharge said:

Might I suggest doing a DNA test? I don’t want to go into detail, but I had two close friends find their bio parents through Ancestry’s test and website. One actually got matched directly to their bio dad and was able to get into contact. It’s not a perfect solution, but it’s a viable option if you wanted to try it. Make sure you read some articles about finding family this way, it can be a roller coaster. Good luck, regardless! 

He won't do one of those ? 

[AussieKrissy]

46 minutes ago, twoandthrough said:

Not a secret marriage, but my husband's parents didn't tell him he was a sperm donor baby until he was in his 20s! We were dating at the time but not yet married, and it was SHOCKING news. His parents had tried to conceive for 7-8 years and finally decided to use a sperm donor. His (non-bio, I guess) dad had polio as a child, so he was infertile (or at least that's what they told him during all of this). 

His parents divorced when he was 8 years old, and his dad never wanted him to find out. His mom finally caved. When his dad was in the hospital dying a few years ago, my husband DID end up telling him he knew because he couldn't NOT say anything. Even his aunts, uncles, etc. had NO idea! 

To each their own, I guess, but that is NOT how I would go about things. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using a sperm donor (or IVF or anything), but I would certainly not hide it from my child. I was appalled, frankly, but my husband didn't take it too hard. He kind of brushed it off and said, "my dad is my dad - this doesn't change anything." We looked into the fertility clinic they used, and of course they're closed now. He decided not to pursue trying to find out who is biological father is because he says he doesn't care and it wouldn't change anything. Plus, it was probably anonymous, done in the 80's. However, it KILLS me because he's an only child, and I would LOVE to know if he has any half-siblings out there. And a medical background would be nice, too. 

He could do the DNA testing 

I had to go through counselling before being allowed to use a donor.

They went through how important it is to begin discussing with my future offspring how she was conceived.

I think today with the all the  types of families that are the norm things like donor conceived are more spoken about, my child should not feel to different.

Attitudes change things that were once kept secret are now commonly discussed.

As a Mum of a donor conceived child I get why your Hubby's parents didn't want to have the hard talk with him early on. I am sure you can understand also. 

For my daughter I am hoping she be able to say she never, not knew.

We talk already about all the different types of families out there and how they come to be.

We have a children's book purpose written for the all types of families and how donor children come to be and we read those. 

There is also the donor sibling registry where he could register his details.

I get the whole not caring to find out his bio father either. 

 

[twoandthrough]

3 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

He could do the DNA testing 

I had to go through counselling before being allowed to use a donor.

They went through how important it is to begin discussing with my future offspring how she was conceived.

I think today with the all the  types of families that are the norm things like donor conceived are more spoken about, my child should not feel to different.

Attitudes change things that were once kept secret are now commonly discussed.

As a Mum of a donor conceived child I get why your Hubby's parents didn't want to have the hard talk with him early on. I am sure you can understand also. 

For my daughter I am hoping she be able to say she never, not knew.

We talk already about all the different types of families out there and how they come to be.

We have a children's book purpose written for the all types of families and how donor children come to be and we read those. 

There is also the donor sibling registry where he could register his details.

I get the whole not caring to find out his bio father either. 

 

Oh, I totally understand his parents' wishes as well - it was a different time for sure. If we had taken that route, though, we would make sure our kids knew. I do respect his wishes of not searching for his bio father and any possible (likely) siblings. I don't pester him about it at all... but I do wish he would. But it's his choice, not mine

I'm going to look into the donor sibling registry just to see if it's something he may be interested in... someday! 

[AussieKrissy]

12 minutes ago, twoandthrough said:

Oh, I totally understand his parents' wishes as well - it was a different time for sure. If we had taken that route, though, we would make sure our kids knew. I do respect his wishes of not searching for his bio father and any possible (likely) siblings. I don't pester him about it at all... but I do wish he would. But it's his choice, not mine

I'm going to look into the donor sibling registry just to see if it's something he may be interested in... someday! 

yep you can search by clinic and year which is very helpful. without a donor number its harder but it can give you a general overview.

My clinic is listed. Hopefully even though your husbands is closed it is still listed because someone else has listed it.

[twoandthrough]

2 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

yep you can search by clinic and year which is very helpful. without a donor number its harder but it can give you a general overview.

My clinic is listed. Hopefully even though your husbands is closed it is still listed because someone else has listed it.

I don't remember the name of the clinic, so I can't find it under the state it was in, but I'm sure he does. I will have to ask him sometime if the conversation steers in that direction.  

[justmy2cents]

1 hour ago, AussieKrissy said:

He could do the DNA testing 

I had to go through counselling before being allowed to use a donor.

They went through how important it is to begin discussing with my future offspring how she was conceived.

I think today with the all the  types of families that are the norm things like donor conceived are more spoken about, my child should not feel to different.

Attitudes change things that were once kept secret are now commonly discussed.

As a Mum of a donor conceived child I get why your Hubby's parents didn't want to have the hard talk with him early on. I am sure you can understand also. 

For my daughter I am hoping she be able to say she never, not knew.

We talk already about all the different types of families out there and how they come to be.

We have a children's book purpose written for the all types of families and how donor children come to be and we read those. 

There is also the donor sibling registry where he could register his details.

I get the whole not caring to find out his bio father either. 

 

My daughter is also donor conceived (single mom here.) I've been very open with her. I also never wanted her to not know. It has it's drawbacks. She has no filter and would talk about her siblings who we connected with on the DSR (donor sibling registry) starting in pre-k when no one knew what she was talking about. ? 

[AussieKrissy]

6 minutes ago, justmy2cents said:

My daughter is also donor conceived (single mom here.) I've been very open with her. I also never wanted her to not know. It has it's drawbacks. She has no filter and would talk about her siblings who we connected with on the DSR (donor sibling registry) starting in pre-k when no one knew what she was talking about. ? 

I have looked on the dsr site and no one has listed, related to her (yet). I don't know what I will do if someone does. It's a bit like pandoras box.

I know she should/must have diblings out there as her donor father is "off the books" because he has met his capacity at five families.

I think I need to join a forum or something for donor using parents and get more ideas on how to "help" my daughter comprehend her origins. I am kind of just being pretty casual about it at the moment. I mean if she wasn't donor concieved she would just casually learn about her origins naturally. I don't want to make it a bigger deal than it is. I dont want her to feel different or lacking.

[pook]

I would like to thank all of you for your support and also for sharing stories about your own unique family situations.  I love all of you so much.  It really has been a SEVERELY interesting couple of years.

[SweetJuly]

My ex only found out during their divorce that his parents met (and conceived him) while his mother was married to another man. He was a teenager at the time, and it was quite a shock for him to realise that his parents had only got married 3 days before his birth.

While I have a lot of sympathy and understanding for people who keep difficult or traumatic family situations secret, I personally can't understand how this is possible. My family constantly talks about everything, every tiny detail is rehashed at least once a year on birthdays or anniversaries, and I know far too much about everyone's personal life. It genuinely confuses me how my husband didn't know that his mother had been on bed rest during her pregnancy with him, and it blows my mind how previous marriages could be kept secret. My family wouldn't know how to do this if they were ordered to ? 

Edited June 6, 2019 by SweetJuly
Choice of words