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Seewalds 40 - Threewald is Here! Ivy Jane


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48 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

So a couple questions from someone with no medical background and zero childbirth experience:

1. Can a midwife (the kind Jessa uses) induce labor?

2. Is it common to have to go to the hospital after a home birth? And isn't she not saving any money this way? 

I can't find what kind of midwife she has but

Technically yes by recommendations (the deed, spicy food, walking) and striping the membrane but as for ordering pitocin, you need a licence and a DEA number.  

You need a DEA And license to give misoprostol (Cytotec) in tablet or dinoprostone (Cervidil) 

I do find it horribly ironic that fundie birth stories mention Cytotec because that is the abortion pill. It is use off-label to kick start labor.  Most doctors use it over Cervidil because it is more effective (and cost less). I reminder blowing my fundie lit friend mind with that info. 

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9 hours ago, CoveredInBees said:

That headscarf's a little too 'Hilda Ogden' for my liking..... Also, Ivy is another good 'Coronation Street' name ;) 

200px-HildaOgden.jpg

Ohmygosh,  I was going to say when I hear Ivy I think Coronation Street!  My all time favorite guilty pleasure.   And I'm American!

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22 minutes ago, Longhairedheathen said:

I can't find what kind of midwife she has 

They have lay midwives normally. So like Jill. I don't even know what certificate she has haha. 

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9 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

Who irons baby clothes? 

I was just gonna say this. I mean unless it's for pictures or something but then why even put the baby in it until it's time? IT's a baby they'll just get messed up again anyway

2 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

They have lay midwives normally. So like Jill. I don't even know what certificate she has haha. 

I think the point of lay midwives is that there is no formal regulated training so if Jill does have a certificate it's worthless

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3 hours ago, WarriorJane said:

Ohmygosh,  I was going to say when I hear Ivy I think Coronation Street!  My all time favorite guilty pleasure.   And I'm American!

I have watched some of the older episodes of Coronation Street online or on itv3 here in the UK and it is so much better than the modern episodes. I grew up watching it in the 90s and 00s but the ones from the 70s and 80s are probably my favourite.

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1 hour ago, Peaches-n-Beans said:

I think the point of lay midwives is that there is no formal regulated training so if Jill does have a certificate it's worthless

Actually there is formal regulated training and state certification,  Lay midwifery is a real thing with its own regulations and certificates.  

Legitimate lay midwifery absolutely exists, to fill a gaping hole  and as an option in areas where RN midwives are thin on the ground.  Better than nothing and some lay midwives may be really good.  But they are all supposed to be properly supervised by MDs and play within the rules.  Some do.  And some do not.

That said, I would never recommend any pregnant Mom going with a lay midwife if you can afford an RN midwife.

Jill's problem is that she worked very hard under a person (Venessa the certified trainer of interns midwife) who got biffed from the system for cause.  Bad ugly cause.  Jill was screwed.  Those practicum hours under Venessa were useless.

IIRC, Jill may have passed her exams but needs to redo the practical part under a new teacher before she can ever practice as a lay midwife.  She shows no sign of redoing that practical part.  'Cos she's married and breeding for God.  

 

 

 

Edited by Palimpsest
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The problem is, not all states have a licensure program for lay midwives. So in those states you have CPMs operating illegally and without regulation or oversight.

Also, mothers-to-be may not understand the difference between the CPM cert and state licensure.  Case in point, Jilly Muff did indeed earn her CPM cert through NARM even though she lost her apprentice license when Venessa’s license was revoked. So she can honestly tell people she is a midwife, even though she isn’t licensed and her skills are highly questionable. Also, Venessa is still running a midwifery practice in other states even though she severely injured a baby in AR.

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I am curious to see if Jessa will be dresses skirts only for this baby.

Jinger wears pants so therefore allows Felicity

Anna does not wear pants and her girls also do not...

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Venessa trained Jill. Since she knows Jack shit how could she teach Jill anything? So yes Jill should redo her practical.

Jill was present at the birth that got Venessa's licence suspended.

They failed to check for strep b, baby has a permanent disability as a direct result. Strep B is a standard check, that is gross negligence.

Jill has shown us with her own birth and Joy's that she is incompetent.

Castor oil is dangerous and contraindicated yet she used it to get her labor go along faster. That's an old wive's tale. It causes irregular contractions and the baby is likely to pass mekonium before the birth, which happened with Israel. Meconium aspiration can cause life threatening complications.

She also laboured for 70 and 40 hours. She did not go to the hospital in time. Even in hospital they would deliver the baby after 24h of non productive labour, because again serious complications.

https://www.inquisitr.com/2971135/mother-whose-baby-nearly-died-says-a-duggar-attended-her-homebirth-discusses-why-jill-dillards-midwife-trainer-lost-her-license/

Jill continued to deliver babies with Venessa even after that incident

https://www.inquisitr.com/2971135/mother-whose-baby-nearly-died-says-a-duggar-attended-her-homebirth-discusses-why-jill-dillards-midwife-trainer-lost-her-license/

Venessa ultimately lost her licence in Arkansas but can still practice midwifery in other states, which she does.

https://gatehousenews.com/failuretodeliver/the-injustice/

 

Screenshot_20190530_120905.jpg

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I think we'll see skirts only for Ivy. While we know that the headship is supposed to decide the pants vs. skirts issue, Ben seems pretty chill on these types of things so I really doubt he is the driver on this one. I think it's either Jessa or the close influence JB and M have. Jinger and Jill seem to lead much more separate lives from their parents than Jessa does. JB feels like the de facto headship for Jessa and Ben, being that Ben entered the Duggar family as a teen and has not held down a real job to our knowledge since marrying Jessa.

If it's Jessa, I'm not even sure it comes from a religious conviction. I think Jessa shows signs of being insecure about her body generally, only comfortable with form-fitting clothing when she is super pregnant, and probably does not like the way she looks in pants. Her style also screams "buy whatever Old Navy swing dress that will fit you whether you're pregnant, postpartum, or in between blessings." Loose dresses may be more cost effective or utilitarian for her.

 

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10 hours ago, SongRed7 said:

I may not agree with all their beliefs, but I wouldn't call Jessa lazy.   From what we have seen, she looks like a loving, engaged mother. The boys seems very well behaved and they seem to encourage intellectual stimulation (lots of books -- and even some secular ones).  I

Yes I agree both Jessa and Ben are good parents, but for 2 stay at home parents they are lazy. They have posted plenty of photos of there filthy house. 

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17 hours ago, VeryNikeSeamstress said:

 

I like Threewald's name. Every time I here it I think of Ru Paul announcing "Iveeeee Wintuurrs" on Drag Race.

Can't stop laughing at this post!
Also yes, I like the name too. :)

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I think Ivy will be in lots of tunic and tights. She does a lot of shopping at consignment stores and there are tons of cute outfits like that. 

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Am I the only person wondering if shit is going down in the Duggar family but they're keeping it rosey for their instagram?

I find it so weird that they've always expressed that they're super close with Michelle, yet they never questioned their parents about clothing choices whilst in the family home. I mean wouldn't it be like an elephant in the room? It would make for some really awkward conversations.

They're basically not considered adult or capable of free thoughts until they're married. There is no room for closeness in that sort of relationship.

Edited by omgpleasestop
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1 hour ago, omgpleasestop said:

Am I the only person wondering if shit is going down in the Duggar family but they're keeping it rosey for their instagram?

I find it so weird that they've always expressed that they're super close with Michelle, yet they never questioned their parents about clothing choices whilst in the family home. I mean wouldn't it be like an elephant in the room? It would make for some really awkward conversations.

They're basically not considered adult or capable of free thoughts until they're married. There is no room for closeness in that sort of relationship.

They likely still have that whole, respect your father and mother thing sticking to the surface even though they might be feeling super lost, frustrated or maybe even angry regarding all of these things. Disrespecting your elders isn't the fundie way.

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1 hour ago, finnlassie said:

They likely still have that whole, respect your father and mother thing sticking to the surface even though they might be feeling super lost, frustrated or maybe even angry regarding all of these things. Disrespecting your elders isn't the fundie way.

I agree I think even if they disagreed or felt differently about something then their parents that they would just wait until they get married. For example the pants wearing. I actually think Jessa agrees with the anti-pants-stance (I like that rhymes haha). Ben seems okay with women in pants. Wear as I think Jinger was itching to get herself in some pants but she never seemed to express that in that TTH

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I suspect Women in skirts or at least only long skirts is beginning to seem very old fashioned and fuddy Duddy with only the older ladies/mothers and the closed off Maxwell type at it.  The young mothers and wives who got the leave from the husband are not about that. They want cute modern modest and I guess the young men want cute hot wives not frumper  wearers though of course they would never admit such a sinful thing. 

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1 hour ago, tabitha2 said:

I suspect Women in skirts or at least only long skirts is beginning to seem very old fashioned and fuddy Duddy with only the older ladies/mothers and the closed off Maxwell type at it.  The young mothers and wives who got the leave from the husband are not about that. They want cute modern modest and I guess the young men want cute hot wives not frumper  wearers though of course they would never admit such a sinful thing. 

And even the Maxwells (for the most part) switched from frumpers to modern modest years ago and were silent about why.

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I could see Jessa enjoying dressing Ivy in feminine outfits with headbands until Ivy's mobile and able to get messy. Jessa has been known to keep it real and address the fact that her house isn't tidy, or that being a #boymom means lots of messes. If Ivy enjoys playing in the dirt with her brothers, I could see Jessa dressing her in low maintenance outfits. At least I hope Jessa will allow Ivy to play/express herself freely without constant jinder role reinforcement.

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11 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Actually there is formal regulated training and state certification,  Lay midwifery is a real thing with its own regulations and certificates.  

Legitimate lay midwifery absolutely exists, to fill a gaping hole  and as an option in areas where RN midwives are thin on the ground.  Better than nothing and some lay midwives may be really good.  But they are all supposed to be properly supervised by MDs and play within the rules.  Some do.  And some do not.

That said, I would never recommend any pregnant Mom going with a lay midwife if you can afford an RN midwife.

Jill's problem is that she worked very hard under a person (Venessa the certified trainer of interns midwife) who got biffed from the system for cause.  Bad ugly cause.  Jill was screwed.  Those practicum hours under Venessa were useless.

IIRC, Jill may have passed her exams but needs to redo the practical part under a new teacher before she can ever practice as a lay midwife.  She shows no sign of redoing that practical part.  'Cos she's married and breeding for God.  

 

 

 

Pretty much this. Jill appears to have actually put a lot of hard work and effort into her studies, but was totally screwed over by Venessa. That might have been a really good thing though. If she was learning under someone who messed up that badly then it’s likely better she didn’t get the certification because she very likely does not have decent practical experience. I’d be interested in what would happen if she redid the practical hours under a competent Midwife, but I don’t think that’s happening at this point. Not with Derick in Law School and, apparently, looking to enter what can be a pretty intense and time consuming career field (I’m not a lawyer and don’t know firsthand, but it looks demanding.)

Jill did take and pass the exam for NARM (North American Registry of Midwives) when Izzy was an infant, but if I remember right that wouldn’t allow her to legally practice on her own in Arkansas as she hasn’t met the state requirements. I think she can assist at births, just not lead them as the main Midwife. I’m pretty sure we haven’t seen her lead any births - there was another Midwife at Gideon’s birth who seemed to take the lead and any births she helped Venessa with in the last few years were captioned as Jill “helping” with the birth.

I think, at this point, if it’s still an interest for Jill then she might be better off going the Doula route. She wouldn’t be the one actually delivering the baby (which is a good thing given her practical experience!), but she’d still be involved in a pretty important role. Doulas can be a huge help for many laboring mothers, especially if they know how to effectively advocate for their client. I think she could do well at that if she marketed herself mainly towards Christian women, as they’d be more likely to be ok with any quoting of scripture or playing if religious music, etc. 

Edited by VelociRapture
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1 hour ago, meee said:

And even the Maxwells (for the most part) switched from frumpers to modern modest years ago and were silent about why.

Actually they did say why.  It's probably hidden in the comments section on Tits2. 

Steve discovered it was cheaper for the wimin-folk to buy ankle length skirts and layer a couple of shirts over them than it was to make their own frumpers. 

NR Anna still makes frumpers for herself, mini-me versions for her girl-kids, and matching shirts for all the boys of the Chris Maxwell family.

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I have a friend who grew up in a quiverful fundie family. She is still pretty conservative in many ways, but she goes to our church which (while traditional in many aspects) has a wide range of beliefs among members. She also married someone her family would not have chosen for her, works outside the home, and used birth control. She grew up sheltered and did not have a ton of education options, I believe. But even as she has demonstrated a lot of separation from the way she grew up, she still almost exclusively wears long skirts. Sometimes she will wear comfy pants and a t-shirt at an informal hang out or some kind of pants for a physical activity and she definitely doesn't have a problem with any of us wearing pants or shorts. I think she's just used to wearing long skirts and feels most comfortable in them.

I rarely wear makeup, so when I do put on mascara or lipstick or whatever, I always get really embarrassed thinking I look ridiculous. But if I look at women around me, they're frequently wearing way more product and it looks nice on them. I just can't get over that hump for myself. I think you see that with some of the older 2gen of all these families. Evan Stewart's oldest sister still has that hair and makeup styling from the 90s that was popular in these circles for awhile. JRod is clearly stuck on a style and just justifies it as being holier because that's what she does, even though almost none of her acquaintance follow the same "standard." 

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1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

 

I think, at this point, if it’s still an interest for Jill then she might be better off going the Doula route. She wouldn’t be the one actually delivering the baby (which is a good thing given her practical experience!), but she’d still be involved in a pretty important role. Doulas can be a huge help for many laboring mothers, especially if they know how to effectively advocate for their client. I think she could do well at that if she marketed herself mainly towards Christian women, as they’d be more likely to be ok with any quoting of scripture or playing if religious music, etc. 

I think Jill would be an utterly terrible doula, and a much better midwife (if she got proper training). Doulas have to do so much emotional work, both on themselves before they qualify, and then with the women they work with. Jill has such a limited emotional range, and lack of self awareness and insight, I just don't think she could do it effectively. Is she capable of learning the basic factual science around birth for her midwifery? Yes. Is she capable of developing active listening skills, debriefing women from trauma, advocating for them? Not in my esteem; those kind of skills seem like everything that their lifestyle is set up to avoid them learning and being capable of. 

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With that mindset Then no fundie offspring ever will escape and keep doing the same exact thing in same exact mindset as their parents and they should not even try. If they cannot learn new skills, adapt and learn to use the brain God gave them on things they are interested in and have talent for them what’s the point?  Unless you’re just Saying Jill is just incapable for some reason.   

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1 minute ago, tabitha2 said:

With that mindset Then no fundie offspring ever will escape and keep doing the same exact thing in same exact mindset as their parents and they should not even try. If they cannot learn new skills, adapt and learn to use the brain God gave them on things they are interested in and have talent for them what’s the point?  Unless you’re just Saying Jill is just incapable for some reason.   

I'm saying that learning emotional range when you have (literally) had that beaten out of you would, for most people, require a lot of therapy, and time and space, to process. So if I was going to keep all other circumstances the same, but put Jill on either a doula or a midwifery course tomorrow, I'd put her on the midwifery one. 

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