Seewalds 40 - Threewald is Here! Ivy Jane

[tabitha2]

That depends on her inner determination to to accomplish her goal. People who have suffered far more and had more emotional work to do on themselves than Jill Duggar Dillard have succeeded in life.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, bal maiden said:

I'm saying that learning emotional range when you have (literally) had that beaten out of you would, for most people, require a lot of therapy, and time and space, to process. So if I was going to keep all other circumstances the same, but put Jill on either a doula or a midwifery course tomorrow, I'd put her on the midwifery one. 

That’s a fair point. I was thinking more of just supporting someone through labor, but you make some pretty solid points. I think she’s likely better off just not pursuing either for now then or coming to terms with the fact that she’ll need to find childcare so she can pursue the actual credentials and education needed to become a Midwife. 

[Snarkasarus Rex]

Even if Jill has the determination to become a licensed midwife, does anyone really think Dillwank would support her?  

[SassyPants]

1 minute ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

Even if Jill has the determination to become a licensed midwife, does anyone really think Dillwank would support her?  

Once he was out of school and had a more established  plan, and in the absence of additional kids (which I think DD would be just fine stopping with the  number that they currently have), yes. I do think DD would be fine with Jill having a career of some sort. Remember, his mom is an educated woman who had a career.

[theotherelise]

Jill is the only one of the duggar women, to our knowledge, who has shown both interest and follow-through in pursuing education outside the SOTDRT. Only time will tell if she continues to feel this inclination and has the time, money, and opportunity to go back and get some training or education. 

One problem with these families is how limited their view of professions are. It's part of the stunted maturity in my opinion. Jill showed an interest in midwifery, but was that because of her limited options? If she is interested in medical caregiving, she has tons of options with technical training or associate degree: phlebotomist, ultrasound tech, certified nursing assistant, breastfeeding peer counselor (WIC), licensed professional nurse, surgical tech, physical or occupational therapy assistant, etc. Most of those would probably pay more, have options for part or full time, and have a set schedule.

I'm pretty sure in my state, certified nurse midwives are not allowed to attend home births. They can only practice in birthing centers or hospitals. If someone desires a home birth, their options are certified professional midwives or going solo or having friends/family help.

[Sullie06]

21 hours ago, IsmeWeatherwax said:

Childbirth scares me stupid and I've had 4! Doing genealogy really proves how many women didn't survive birthing. My Grampa's Mam died when he was 4, having her 3rd (I havent got her death cert as yet tho I do have the date, its on my list alone with a hundred others). My Granny's Granny died when her 1st baby was 12 days old, childbed fever. She really strikes a cord with me, as she married at 18, had her baby, died, and hadn't even had her 1st wedding anniversary, and I did exactly the same, except I have reached the grand age of 41. I did have childbed fever after my 4th, and I am here ONLY due to the medical care I received. 

This is a good point. I think people don't realize how dangerous child birth really is, especially when you have this romanticized view of it after watching your mom crank out two baseball teams.  If my daughter would have been born 100 years ago, probably less, I would have died. I had a complete Placenta Previa and no doubt I would have bled to death and she likely would have died as well, and that would have just been my fate. We have medicine and advancement for a reason.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

2 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

That depends on her inner determination to to accomplish her goal. People who have suffered far more and had more emotional work to do on themselves than Jill Duggar Dillard have succeeded in life.

What do you know about the emotional sufferences of Jill Duggar? Are you her therapist? Because if you are then you should stfu, if you aren't then you don't know.

And you aren't. Because no therapist worth their salt would make such stupid comparisons.

You can't judge people's mental health from social media.

[lumpentheologie]

3 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

That depends on her inner determination to to accomplish her goal. People who have suffered far more and had more emotional work to do on themselves than Jill Duggar Dillard have succeeded in life.

There are many, many things in life that cannot be overcome by sheer force of will, especially things visited upon people because of childhood abuse. Claiming that Jill needs to essentially toughen up and deal with it is irresponsible, and frankly insulting to survivors of any kind of trauma. 

[tabitha2]

Claiming that Jill can never do better because Of her past and better just settle is as as well. 

[lumpentheologie]

4 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

Claiming that Jill can never do better because Of her past and better just settle is as as well. 

No one is saying that, though. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

Um, I am pretty sure all very much want and hope for Jill to do better in life. We also hold her responsible for any hateful views she may be teaching her young children. However, the harm and ongoing trauma from religious fundamentalism is very real. Recovery from that is an on-going process and not likely possible from will power alone. I was raised fundie-lite, far more educated and less sheltered than Jill Duggar. I am still recovering from the effects of a fundie-lite childhood. 

[SassyPants]

Picture of Jessa, Ben and Ivy  up on Jessa’s IG 

[fluffernutter]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Picture of Jessa, Ben and Ivy  up on Jessa’s IG 

Theres a comment from Jill saying "can't wait to snuggle my little baby again soon." Ugh maybe I am too sensitive but my mother in law has always called my girls her girls and it grates on my nerves. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by fluffernutter
grammar

[NakedKnees]

Backtracking a little bit, but am I the only one who mainly associates the name "Ivy" with Blue Ivy Carter/Ivy Park? Maybe I'm just inclined to fantasize that Jessa and Ben like Beyonce.

I'd have loved to see Anna release a kick-ass album and go apesh*t on a bunch of cars rather than pretty-cry and forgive immediately when Josh cheated on her, at least. Fundies are so boring sometimes.

I'm glad Ivy Seewald seems to have gotten here easily and that Jessa and Ben seem to love her dearly. I hope they all escape. Gideon is still my favorite Duggarling name though.

[Dreadcrumbs]

7 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

With that mindset Then no fundie offspring ever will escape and keep doing the same exact thing in same exact mindset as their parents and they should not even try. If they cannot learn new skills, adapt and learn to use the brain God gave them on things they are interested in and have talent for them what’s the point?  Unless you’re just Saying Jill is just incapable for some reason.   

No one is saying this.

Jill and the others would require time and therapy. This is unavoidable because they've had childhoods that unfortunately necessitate recovery.

[Hisey]

Quote

There are many, many things in life that cannot be overcome by sheer force of will, especially things visited upon people because of childhood abuse. Claiming that Jill needs to essentially toughen up and deal with it is irresponsible, and frankly insulting to survivors of any kind of trauma.

What a shame to sell Jill short this way. And I don't like the implication that abused kids can't accomplish things in life as well as others.

"You were raised fundamentalist? Oh, in that case, your education/values/upbringing makes it impossible for you to succeed."

I agree, though, that it takes time and therapy, and that they face hurdles that people with "normal" childhoods can't even understand.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Hisey

[CaptainFunderpants]

11 hours ago, meee said:

And even the Maxwells (for the most part) switched from frumpers to modern modest years ago and were silent about why.

To be fair, for a while frumpers were more or less in fashion; I remember buying frumpers at K-Mart. The trend was waning in the early 2000s, and the mid-2000s saw a push toward modern modest with the shift really being defined by the early 2010s. 

When you account for how long clothes tend to last either in a closet or in regard to hand-me-downs (figure 10 years), it makes sense that for the most part everyone had been largely switched over to modern modest by 2012 or so, with natural holdouts here or there -there are plenty of frumper sewing patterns to be found at Joann's.

[Georgiana]

14 minutes ago, Hisey said:

What a shame to sell Jill short this way. And I don't like the implication that abused kids can't accomplish things in life as well as others.

"You were raised fundamentalist? Oh, in that case, your education/values/upbringing makes it impossible for you to succeed."

I agree, though, that it takes time and therapy, and that they face hurdles that people with "normal" childhoods can't even understand.

That's not what the post you quoted is saying though.  They are saying that while Jill and others can succeed, not everything can be overcome by stiffening your upper lip and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps.  You can't tough out the impact of being woefully under-educated and never encouraged to develop critical thinking skills.  That's simply not a solution to that problem.  You CAN overcome it, but you do so by gaining the education you missed out on and learning how to think critically.  Similarly, you can't push through being emotionally stunted.  That's not going to encourage emotional growth.  You're still going to likely be emotionally stunted, you're just putting off dealing with it.  These simply aren't problems that will-power alone can solve.

What the post says is that Jill needs will-power, determination, AND an actual solution to the problem in order to overcome it.  Jill can be tough as nails, as determined as anything, but if she is never given real access to actual solutions to her problems, she is unlikely to ever be actually able to resolve them.

And that's one of the ways in which Patriarchy keeps people trapped: by removing their access to actual solutions like education and therapy.  So that even if they are tough as nails and determined as hell, they'll still be kept stunted and weak without any viable way to push past their barriers.   

[JustEnough]

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

What a shame to sell Jill short this way. And I don't like the implication that abused kids can't accomplish things in life as well as others.

"You were raised fundamentalist? Oh, in that case, your education/values/upbringing makes it impossible for you to succeed."

I agree, though, that it takes time and therapy, and that they face hurdles that people with "normal" childhoods can't even understand.

I'm so confused by this post. The post you quoted literally said that some things could not be overcome by sheer force of will, not that it meant she couldn't succeed regardless of what she does. The post also said that to imply or say someone who has been through the things Jill has had to deal with could just "toughen up" in order to succeed is insulting to those who have been through those kinds of traumatic things.

Nowhere does it say that if she got time and therapy she couldn't succeed and you yourself agreed those things would likely be necessary for her (and I agree for what it's worth).

How is what you are saying not selling her short but the person you quoted was???

Also I'm pretty sure her post was in response to the poster who said that others have been through worse than Jill (which may be true and yet is also incredibly minimizing and IMO offensive, especially since we have no idea really all of what Jill has been through in her life).

[AliceInFundyland]

PSA: Hisey regularly contradicts itself. Time and time again. Not worth the effort to figure out.

[kmachete14]

I think some people need to take a step back and look at people / themselves in their lives and how long it took for them to come to their own changes in views. 

I am 25.

In elementary school, I loved learning about different cultures and saving the earth and animals etc. I prayed every night and had all kinds of odd thoughts about being able to communicate with God and dead relatives. 

At ages 11-14, when I was just starting to form my own serious opinions on life/politics/etc. I thought my faith was very important to me. I was secretly addicted to porn and felt a very heavy weight of that sin on my shoulders and felt I was in a constant battle with God. I loved learning about new cultures but was intolerant of "smelly" people in my school that came from other cultures. At the same time, I thought gay men and women should have "civil unions" and not "real marriages." I thought abortion was evil and women should just put their baby up for adoption. I called other girls "sluts." I was pretty militant about these beliefs!!

At ages 15-18, I stopped believing in god due to studying the Bible as a historical text and learning real Catholic theology. I thought porn was bad because I was addicted and didn't know the source. I became very liberal leaning in regards to gay marriage and other social issues. I still thought abortion was bad, but I thought it should be legal. 

Ages 19-25, I began to seriously fear the effects of religion on my peers, family members, and society. I no longer am addicted to porn after becoming a slut for a few years (lol). I think abortion is quite near to killing babies, but I think women have bodily autonomy. I am totally for the rights of LBGTQ+ community. I still support many social justice issues from around the world and in the US very passionately. 

That's 15 years of changing beliefs. Some of the things I believed early in life probably hurt others and left lasting scars to myself. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next few years I had new thoughts/ideas/changes in beliefs. 

And all this was from being raised in strict but pretty tolerant, mildly conservative Catholic family. Over the years my own parent's beliefs have waxed and waned as well in regards to social issues and religion. 

I think this time span of 15 years (for both my parents and I) was pretty formative, and we had no barriers, no lack of education, no social stigma, no restrictive society etc. to hold us back. I cannot imagine how much more quickly Jill and others can move without doing a total 180 detox turn (Very, very unlikely). You have to give people time to come to the these conclusions logically! This doesn't excuse anyone from their toxic or harmful beliefs, but I am just being realistic about humans in general. It takes time. 

Another example is Erica Shupe and her family. 

 

[Hisey]

6 hours ago, Dreadcrumbs said:

No one is saying this.

Jill and the others would require time and therapy. This is unavoidable because they've had childhoods that unfortunately necessitate recovery.

I don't think you can decide -- based on reality-TV watching -- that Jill needs therapy in order to be successful and happy. And it's certain not "unavoidable." 

First of all, we know very little about who the real Jill is.

Secondly, there are many, many ways to overcome a dysfunctional past besides therapy. There are many wonderful self-help books out there. There are terrific youtube videos (there's one called School of Life that is great). Jill could also talk with friends. She could seek help from older women who might act as a surrogate mom (not in the Lori-Alexander style, though). She can learn and grow by journaling, doing yoga, biofeedback, neurofeedback. The list goes on.

If you read some of Dr. Bessel van der Kolk's work, he uses many, many other techniques besides therapy (including theatre!) to help victims of trauma and abuse. And he is one of the world's best-known experts on this subject.

Therapy is expensive. People who can't afford it can still overcome their past.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Hisey

[JustEnough]

3 hours ago, AliceInFundyland said:

PSA: Hisey regularly contradicts itself. Time and time again. Not worth the effort to figure out.

I am so glad you said this. It makes both the post I quoted and the one that was just posted by the same poster make more sense. 

I mean make as much sense as is possible when one is arguing that therapy isn't necessary after posting just hours before that these issues would require time and therapy.

[Melissa1977]

14 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

That depends on her inner determination to to accomplish her goal. People who have suffered far more and had more emotional work to do on themselves than Jill Duggar Dillard have succeeded in life.

I don't doubt there are people who have suffered more than Jill. But of course she have suffered deeply!  She was brainwashed since birth, beaten, abused by a bother and forced to shut up and forgive, she worked harder than 99% of girls her age and not only babysat siblings but was responsible of their behaviour. She was hungry and had to hide food, and was malnourished (for a while, according Michelle and her only-rice meals). Her feelings were banned and could only show contentment, even in the worst moments. And on the top, the TV cameras!

All of the above is enough to need years of therapy and probably the emotional scar would be there forever.

Duggar kids (or some of them) may now be disgusting adults, but their emotional and physical childhood suffering is not something to deny. 

[JordynDarby5]

I didn't realize Jessa had already given birth. I've been busy with stuff and medical issues and about to be busy with stuff and medical issues for the next few days. I thought I was going to miss it then. 

Ivy Jane-didn't see that one coming either. Its pretty.