Seewalds 40 - Threewald is Here! Ivy Jane

[squiddysquid]

19 minutes ago, Iamtheway said:

My husband irons his shirts for work. I only iron beads. Think I’ll make this one my next project ...

 

 

[SassyPants]

3 minutes ago, squiddysquid said:

 

I literally LOL’d. I hope the creator does not strike me down.

[Longhairedheathen]

32 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I agree, I wonder if she had another hemorrhage? 

I doubt this family understand how fast you can died from bleeding out.  All these fundies love to romanticized birth and farm life but time and time again they prove they don't understand WOMEN DIED, CHILDREN DIED AND YOU WENT HUNGRY. 

16 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

My theory has always been that extreme pro-natalist Protestants and Catholics are cavalier about the inherent risks involved in pregnancy and child birth because one of the main arguments for small family size (along with birth control and abortion) are concerns about the health of the woman. The retort tends to be that the female body is “made for pregnancy” and any health related concerns are just propaganda from “pro-aborts.” In fact, childbirth is so natural that you can even do it at home with no medical professionals present. Like anti-vaxxers who can be willfully ignorant about infectious diseases they never experienced because of vaccinations, pro-natalists assume that the result of childbirth will always be a healthy mother and baby, because they take modern medicine for granted. Then there’s also the fact that hospital care for pregnancy is expensive, especially if you have double digit numbers of children and no insurance.

Can we start a thread about mental gymnastics of fundie facts.  Most outlandish 'fact" one wins the gold. 

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

2 hours ago, HermioneSparrow said:

The internalized mysoginia is not only a thing of fundies.

I always find this interesting on FreeJinger - so many behaviours that fundies get critiqued for are fairly common in American society:

- voting for Trump (like, 49% of the voters, last time!)

- bows on baby girls

-joking/not joking about gender roles even for babies

- hypermasculine boy names and cutesy girl names

- extreme anti-abortion stance

- "hate the sin, not the sinner" attitude toward gay people

- transphobia re washrooms etc.

- not too concerned about the lives and quality of life of immigrants and refugees, despite being "pro-life"

- many others I'm forgetting!

I guess it's probably true that most fundies would check off ALL of this list while other socially conservative Americans may only check off a few (or be less extreme about it, i.e. not support abortion but not go protest outside an abortion clinic either.)

I'm personally in the camp that "fundy" as a definition should include little/no birth control as the "arrows for the Lord" and "outbreed the heathens" ideas are not very mainstream, compared to many of the above.

[Seculardaisy]

54 minutes ago, Italiangirl said:

I don't know much about birthing babies but since the deliver was pretty quick could Jessa have some tears? Or something like that? 

Very possible for any birth but especially for the ones that progress quickly. My second baby was born in the car and because he came so fast I tore pretty badly, your body doesn't get the time it needs to adjust to the birth/delivery when you progress so fast. However all of my births have been relatively fast and this was the worst I've torn. I also had bits of placenta that broke away inside of me.

[samurai_sarah]

10 minutes ago, Longhairedheathen said:

(snip)

Can we start a thread about mental gymnastics of fundie facts.  Most outlandish 'fact" one wins the gold. 

Go ahead. FJ is a free speech zone. As long as it's within the rules, we're all good.

[StraightOuttaArkansas]

2 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

Who irons baby clothes? 

 

1 hour ago, squiddysquid said:

Pff, who irons any clothes? Hang them in the bathroom and have a long, warm morning shower

(my grandma irons bed linen - who knows why)

 

I do. Once a month when I do the "big wash"* (the things that we don't need and have multiple of like sheets (duvet covers & co), church clothes, out of season stuff, things that actually do need to be ironed like nice dress shirts). I take the week and everything including the baby clothes get ironed. It folds so much better which makes storing the sheets and things much easier. I do realize this is a time luxury and just so you all can feel better: my mom lets me know every month that I am crazy for doing it. I just like ironing though. I would not be mean to anyone who didn't see the need to iron.

*Clarifying: I wash more often than that, I just mean that everything that gets washed in that week and the regular clothes that happen to be in the hampers gets ironed.

On topic: Lots of hair, looks like a baby. I am not in love with the name, but it is not ugly. I would like to give my hypothetical future daughter a traditionally masculine name that has through pop culture in the English speaking world crossed to a feminine name, but to do that in Germany she would be required to have "an easily identifiable traditionally female" second first name. They don't do middle names there, so everything that is not your last/surname is your first name, but essentially as it stands now you must have a second name that clearly identifies or matches your sex if your first one does not. I cannot imagine that t his rule will hang on too much longer, but I find it problematic in this day and age (and actually ever). Example: I watched Pretty Little Liars and ended up loving the name Spencer as a girls name (for boys ick, sounds to sufer dude on a trust fund to me), but if I used that then I would to add something like Marie or Luisa, and she would be "Spencer Marie" officially even if she just went by Spencer for the rest of her life. (Spencer is not the name I want to use though ). Guess it is good that so far I had boys.

Spurgeon has grown on me as a name. I kind of like it.

Edited May 29, 2019 by StraightOuttaArkansas
clarifying that I do wash more than one a month.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

1 hour ago, Longhairedheathen said:

18 hours ago, FluffySnowball said:

Ok, ok, @Longhairedheathen, laugh at this question if you must but is Chrysanthemum your actual name (which I would love as it’s one of my favorite flowers and allows for some pretty nicknames as well) or did you use it as an example for your equally rare name? Anyways, I love it! 

It is. 2 questions I get asked all the time is "Is that you real name?"  and "How do you spell it."

Are you familiar with the book? It's funny and sweet. 

Spoiler

 

[nolongerIFBx]

18 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Maybe unpopular opinion, but I own it: I think it sucks that Ivy didn't get, at the very least, a name that is remotely after some sort of theological figure or missionary, like Henry and Spurgeon. Unless they announce some connection that I haven't made yet, (which I will own, because just because I can't make that connection doesn't mean it doesn't exist], I think it sucks and is sexist that she, too, doesn't deserve a name that in some way ties to her brothers and the faith of her parents.

ETA: I think Ivy Jane, in and of itself, is a delightful name, but it's just a disappointment that she wasn't named for a hero of the faith, like her brothers.

Maybe Jane Haining? She was a missionary from Budapest who risked her life to save Jewish children during the Holocaust.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Haining

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

32 minutes ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

I'm personally in the camp that "fundy" as a definition should include little/no birth control as the "arrows for the Lord" and "outbreed the heathens" ideas are not very mainstream, compared to many of the above.

Those are definitely characteristics of the Quiverfull movement. Most of the fundies we talk about are Quiverfull, but not all. In my opinion, all Quiverfull followers are fundies, but there are fundies who aren't Quiverfull.

For example, if Jinger and Jeremy do use some form of birth control, they may not be Quiverfull, but they are still fundie. Just a different flavor.

[SongRed7]

8 hours ago, Godly grifting said:

Jessa Is so lazy it will look terrible because she won't iron any of it. 

I may not agree with all their beliefs, but I wouldn't call Jessa lazy.   From what we have seen, she looks like a loving, engaged mother. The boys seems very well behaved and they seem to encourage intellectual stimulation (lots of books -- and even some secular ones).  I

Edited May 29, 2019 by SongRed7

[elf1590]

With the picture of Grammy Seewald and baby, you can see Jessa (well, somebody....but let's assume Jessa) laying in the hospital bed behind her.

[Longhairedheathen]

12 minutes ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

Are you familiar with the book? It's funny and sweet. 

  Hide contents

 

Yes. My baby shower was Kevin Henkes theme with my oldest. 

[Bad Wolf]

43 minutes ago, nolongerIFBx said:

Maybe Jane Haining? She was a missionary from Budapest who risked her life to save Jewish children during the Holocaust.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Haining

But did she try to convert them? That's what counts in fundieland. What an amazing woman she was.

[tabitha2]

Jane is a classic centuries old name that will be name of any number of notable Christian female. It may not be for one person at all. Ivy is a much more interesting choice. 

[BachelorToTheRapture]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

It certainly would be nice to see their traditional post baby family photo. However, I would not be surprised if like with Sam’s birth, we hear nothing beyond what we’ve already heard. Hope that they are all doing well. I just wish all these young women would realize that there are very few KJs and Michelles, and even they had some OBGYN difficulties and sought care, as needed, along the way. 

I think we'll hear more about it because jessa and Ben are still on the show. We didn't hear about Sam's partially because the dillards left/were fired.

2 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

My theory has always been that extreme pro-natalist Protestants and Catholics are cavalier about the inherent risks involved in pregnancy and child birth because one of the main arguments for small family size (along with birth control and abortion) are concerns about the health of the woman. The retort tends to be that the female body is “made for pregnancy” and any health related concerns are just propaganda from “pro-aborts.” In fact, childbirth is so natural that you can even do it at home with no medical professionals present. Like anti-vaxxers who can be willfully ignorant about infectious diseases they never experienced because of vaccinations, pro-natalists assume that the result of childbirth will always be a healthy mother and baby, because they take modern medicine for granted. Then there’s also the fact that hospital care for pregnancy is expensive, especially if you have double digit numbers of children and no insurance.

My parents are extremely anti-birth control and had me read books about how wonderful women who died in childbirth after doctors recommended that they stop having babies are. In my experience, people know how dangerous too many pregnancies can be but think that it's a woman's greatest accomplishment and she'll be saintly and go straight to heaven if she (is married and) dies in childbirth when refusing any form of birth control.

[SassyPants]

47 minutes ago, BachelorToTheRapture said:

I think we'll hear more about it because jessa and Ben are still on the show. We didn't hear about Sam's partially because the dillards left/were fired.

My parents are extremely anti-birth control and had me read books about how wonderful women who died in childbirth after doctors recommended that they stop having babies are. In my experience, people know how dangerous too many pregnancies can be but think that it's a woman's greatest accomplishment and she'll be saintly and go straight to heaven if she (is married and) dies in childbirth when refusing any form of birth control.

I’m not so sure about that. The Seewalds are all about a certain image and have enjoyed many accolades for how they present themselves. I think depending on the situation that may or may not have occurred, they’ll weigh the pros and cons before disclosing anything.

[Carm_88]

There are so many things that can go wrong giving birth at home with no proper medical care, it could be any of those. Hopefully Jessa is doing well post birth. Ivy looks pretty healthy!

[nausicaa]

So a couple questions from someone with no medical background and zero childbirth experience:

1. Can a midwife (the kind Jessa uses) induce labor?

2. Is it common to have to go to the hospital after a home birth? And isn't she not saving any money this way? 

[IsmeWeatherwax]

Childbirth scares me stupid and I've had 4! Doing genealogy really proves how many women didn't survive birthing. My Grampa's Mam died when he was 4, having her 3rd (I havent got her death cert as yet tho I do have the date, its on my list alone with a hundred others). My Granny's Granny died when her 1st baby was 12 days old, childbed fever. She really strikes a cord with me, as she married at 18, had her baby, died, and hadn't even had her 1st wedding anniversary, and I did exactly the same, except I have reached the grand age of 41. I did have childbed fever after my 4th, and I am here ONLY due to the medical care I received. 

It makes me so angry that these women put themselves at huge risk time and again when there is no need for it. Yes we still have maternal mortality which is just unbearable, but they willingly choose the unsafe route just because what? Makes them a martyr? They want sympathy? Insane.    

8 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

So a couple questions from someone with no medical background and zero childbirth experience:

1. Can a midwife (the kind Jessa uses) induce labor?

2. Is it common to have to go to the hospital after a home birth? And isn't she not saving any money this way? 

I had a home birth with my 4th and although I did bleed out (big baby, big placenta) it stopped within the time limit allowed by my midwife, I didn't go to hospital. I'm UK tho so it may be different.

[Cleopatra7]

@PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea, there are a lot of definitions of fundamentalism in the field of religious studies. There’s not even a single agreed upon definition of religion (it’s sort of like pornography in that everyone knows what it looks like but can’t define it). One definition of fundamentalism that I like is from Martin Riesenbrodt, who calls it both “mobilized and radicalized traditionalism” as well as “patriarchy that has become self aware.” I like his definition because it works across religious and cultural lines and cuts to the heart of the matter, and isn’t fixated on whether wearing skirts or pants designates that one is or is not a fundamentalist (even in the same sect, clothing choices can vary quite a bit).

The political beliefs of people like the Duggar differ from the mainstream in terms of degree rather than substance. They’re extreme but not too extreme for JB to serve a term as a state representative or for them to have a long running reality show on a secular network. This is because Protestant white Christianity still remains the default religion in American society, so the Duggars come off as acceptably eccentric to many people, unlike, say, a large family in the Nation of Islam or the Rastafarians. Our presuppositions about what constitutes the “right kind of Christianity”  and the politics that flow from that all stream from white Protestantism, even if you are neither white nor Protestant or even a theist. 

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

1 minute ago, Cleopatra7 said:

@PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea, there are a lot of definitions of fundamentalism in the field of religious studies. There’s not even a single agreed upon definition of religion (it’s sort of like pornography in that everyone knows what it looks like but can’t define it). One definition of fundamentalism that I like is from Martin Riesenbrodt, who calls it both “mobilized and radicalized traditionalism” as well as “patriarchy that has become self aware.” I like his definition because it works across religious and cultural lines and cuts to the heart of the matter, and isn’t fixated on whether wearing skirts or pants designates that one is or is not a fundamentalist (even in the same sect, clothing choices can vary quite a bit). 

The political beliefs of people like the Duggar differ from the mainstream in terms of degree rather than substance. They’re extreme but not too extreme for JB to serve a term as a state representative or for them to have a long running reality show on a secular network. This is because Protestant white Christianity still remains the default religion in American society, so the Duggars come off as acceptably eccentric to many people, unlike, say, a large family in the Nation of Islam or the Rastafarians. Our presuppositions about what constitutes the “right kind of Christianity”  and the politics that flow from that all stream from white Protestantism, even if you are neither white nor Protestant or even a theist. 

Since I'm not a religious academic, I wasn't too concerned if my personal definition lined up with the academic range out there (I have read those many FJ threads!) but I really like Riesenbrodt's way of putting it - thanks for sharing that! You could certainly say that restricting women's roles and education, as well as the Quiverfull baby program fall into his definitions. I'd say they're relatively rare beliefs/practices in the US as a whole, too.

[SassyPants]

28 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

So a couple questions from someone with no medical background and zero childbirth experience:

1. Can a midwife (the kind Jessa uses) induce labor?

2. Is it common to have to go to the hospital after a home birth? And isn't she not saving any money this way? 

A MW could strip membranes which is the first step in inducing or initiating labor.

[Palimpsest]

29 minutes ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

Since I'm not a religious academic, I wasn't too concerned if my personal definition lined up with the academic range out there (I have read those many FJ threads!) but I really like Riesenbrodt's way of putting it - thanks for sharing that! You could certainly say that restricting women's roles and education, as well as the Quiverfull baby program fall into his definitions. I'd say they're relatively rare beliefs/practices in the US as a whole, too.

We've never had a strict definition of "Fundie" on FJ either.  Because, as @Cleopatra7 said, it's like pornography.  A lot of the people we discuss on FJ fall under the very American and quite recent (in historical terms) Biblical or Christian Patriarchy Movement.  I like Libby Anne's articles on this because she demonstrates how there are differences among the leaders of the Christian Patriarchy Movement.  This article gives an overview and also links to her other articles and sites discussing the movement.

Quote

While their roots go back much further and their influence spreads much wider, the Christian Patriarchy and Quiverfull movements were born in the homeschool movement in the 1980s and have since grown by leaps and bounds. Christian Patriarchy teaches that families must follow a strict patriarchal order and Quiverfull teaches that families must raise up numerous children as foot soldiers to build Christ’s kingdom on earth. While technically distinct, these two movements nevertheless almost always go hand in hand.

The Christian Patriarchy and Quiverfull movements have no one leader or organizational structure. Rather, there exists a cluster of leaders who may or may not view each other as allies but nevertheless promote similar teachings and run a variety of organizations and ministries that often network with each other. These leaders include, but are not limited to, Bill Gothard, Nancy Campbell, Mary Pride, Doug Wilson, Doug Phillips, Geoff Botkin, Jonathan Lindvall, Scott Brown, and Michael Pearl. Families involved in the Christian Patriarchy and Quiverfull movements are generally influenced by the teachings of one or more of these loosely networked leaders.

 

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/christian-patriarchyquiverfull

[Dreadcrumbs]

1 hour ago, Cleopatra7 said:

@PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea, there are a lot of definitions of fundamentalism in the field of religious studies. There’s not even a single agreed upon definition of religion (it’s sort of like pornography in that everyone knows what it looks like but can’t define it). One definition of fundamentalism that I like is from Martin Riesenbrodt, who calls it both “mobilized and radicalized traditionalism” as well as “patriarchy that has become self aware.” I like his definition because it works across religious and cultural lines and cuts to the heart of the matter, and isn’t fixated on whether wearing skirts or pants designates that one is or is not a fundamentalist (even in the same sect, clothing choices can vary quite a bit).

The political beliefs of people like the Duggar differ from the mainstream in terms of degree rather than substance. They’re extreme but not too extreme for JB to serve a term as a state representative or for them to have a long running reality show on a secular network. This is because Protestant white Christianity still remains the default religion in American society, so the Duggars come off as acceptably eccentric to many people, unlike, say, a large family in the Nation of Islam or the Rastafarians. Our presuppositions about what constitutes the “right kind of Christianity”  and the politics that flow from that all stream from white Protestantism, even if you are neither white nor Protestant or even a theist. 

Riesenbrodt's definition of fundamentalism is more or less identical to my own. It's reactionary at its very core and transcends trivialities like clothing.