Michaela & Brandon Keilen 5: She Goes By Michaela

[JesSky03]

6 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

That was me.  I'm so sorry, I really didn't mean to be hurtful.  I don't want to diminish anyone's pain.  

Having no personal experience with infertility, it's hard for me to understand how it makes people feel. To me, it seems like wanting to have children is comparable to wanting to be in a lifetime relationship or wanting to go to college.  Basically a major life goal.  So it's not clear to me why not being able to have children would be different than not getting to do those other things. Maybe that's because getting an education and finding a partner have been more important goals for me than having children. I know it's unfair to expect people who are suffering from something to take on the additional burden of explaining that suffering to others, but I'd be grateful if anyone does want to share their experience so I can understand better. 

Again, I'm really sorry if this comparison offends or hurts anyone. 

Its hard to understand when you haven't been through it. My sister is 2 years older than me and when she was going through infertility I didn't really understand how painful it was for her. I knew I wanted kids someday but they were not on my immediate radar so I couldn't attach any emotional significance to that type of longing. And then a few years later we became ready to have our own kids and suffered a miscarriage and couldn't get pregnant afterwards. I finally understood. I sometimes feel guilty for not having been more supportive but she is so understanding and said she never wanted me to have to be able to relate to what she was going through. Infertility makes you feel so helpless and betrayed by your own body. You feel isolated and alone and like everyone else around you is getting the one thing you want most. There's also that strong biological desire to have offspring that you can't just turn off. Sure there are tests and treatments available, but they are expensive (sooo expensive), they are invasive, they are time consuming, they are stressful on your mind and body, and unfortunately do not work for everyone.

[lumpentheologie]

Thank you to everyone who has shared.  I understand better now.  I don't think I'd realized before how much infertility is understood as a problem with your body and that does make me see how it can be processed similarly to cancer, etc.  

My own mother struggled with infertility for years both before and after having me, so I guess I never expected I'd be able to have children and I didn't realize how much that's not the norm. I've also never had a particularly strong desire for children. So I appreciate you all sharing and helping me be more empathetic with people in different situations.  I'm so sorry for all you're going through or have gone through. I'll be more sensitive and supportive in the future.  ?

[Iamtheway]

15 hours ago, Curious said:

I had a teacher, in front of the class on the first day of 5th grade, ask me if my parents put all the letters of the alphabet in a hat, draw out 5 and arrange them until they made a word.  It was humiliating, particularly since my name isn't actually a word (in the way he meant), however, it's one letter off a word...

Save Kardigan for your dog or cat.

What a shitty teacher! They should know way better then shaming a kid for their name. 

That being said, I really want to know your name now! I understand people want to be private but all name discussions on here makes me so curious. 

I actually think Kardigan sounds nice. But that a word sounds nice is not an excuse to give it to your child as their name. That’s just mean, they are stuck with that for life. All parents should think about the fact that their child is an actual person that has to live in the actual world where they will occasionally interact with other people. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

The three K Keilen children are all teens. So one of Brandon’s brothers probably believes in some form of birth control. Even though the Keilens had a huge amount of children, I doubt they will have a lot of grandchildren.

[Pretzel]

Frankly, I admire Michael for not letting herself go or become bitter. She's dealing with it all rather humbly and gracefully, and she is still able to be around all those super-fertile sisters all the time, dote on her nieces, nephews, and take care of her younger siblings. Apparently, it doesn't bother her too much and she can separate her feelings (of sadness? I assume) about her infertility from her feelings of joy for her family and friends. 

I think going for the nursing degree is the best thing she could do in that situation. It is for sure better than just sitting at home not knowing what to do with herself for the rest of her life or working for some shady fundie institution. As an RN she will not only be a role model for her younger siblings, but she'll also acquire skills while being exposed to all kinds of people, and she'll further define who Michael is apart from being the daughter of Quiverfullers. She'll probably get her degree and then start working for a Christian hospital, or a kid-centered place, maybe a pediatrician's office or children's hospital and I guess that would suit her well. Assuming that she'll do well in nursing school, get her degree and provide proper care for all her patients, at least the community will benefit from that as well. 

[Iamtheway]

On 10/2/2019 at 12:08 AM, Pretzel said:

Apparently, it doesn't bother her too much and she can separate her feelings (of sadness? I assume) about her infertility from her feelings of joy for her family and friends. 

Or she was raised to keep sweet and not question the life god has chosen for her?

We didn’t tell many people about our struggles with infertility because it hurt too much to talk about it. And apparently we hid our feelings about it well because when we told people we were expecting many were surprised since they had thought we didn’t want children. 

During the time we were trying we picked my niece up from daycare once a week and we hung out with friends and their kids all the time. We congratulated every expecting couple with joy and happiness (and there were so many expecting couples, so many). Then we went home and cried where no one could see us. Infertility is soulcrushing and I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. 

But, unlike Michael, I did not see motherhood as my calling in life. I wanted kids but I also had plenty of other dreams and had no outside pressure to fill my quiver at all. There was also never a moment where I thought god was punishing me or I had to question my whole belief system as I assume Michael have had to do.

I wish no children would have to be born in to that hateful cult but at the same time I really feel for Michael. I have stood where she’s standing. Surrounded by babies and pregnancies with a smile on my face but with an overpowering longing that breaks your heart a little bit more every day. 

I am sure I could have made a good life for myself even if I hadn’t had Miniway but my heart would always have stayed a little bit broken. 

[LillyP]

On 10/1/2019 at 1:30 PM, Kelsey said:

I can't imagine she doesn't wear scrubs pants. I know skirts are an option but I've never seen anyone choose them in 5+ years working at a teaching hospital.

But how many of those people do you think at your hospital are fundie and skirts-only in their personal life? I'd bet most of those people you encounter, if they are super religous, probably still wear pants outside of work. 

 Obviously Abbie Duggar is an example of someone who is skirts only but opted for scrub pants at work. But I think that's because she comes from a family, that while still very conservative, also acknowledges the real world in the sense of your kids getting an education and having a job.

The Bates (and Duggars) have built their brand on girls only wearing skirts for modesty....and Micheala is super entrenched in the coolaid. While the other sisters are all jumping on the pants train I definitely don't see Michaela joining in - especially with Brandon for a husband who is uber traditional and formal. Frankly, I'm surprised he's even on board with the whole nursing thing - but I think he's realized she needs something to do and the alternative is Michaela probably wanting to explore other ways to start a family. I'm pretty sure he'd rather see his wife be a working woman than go the route of fertility treatments or adoption.

[rebeccawriter01]

3 hours ago, LillyP said:

But how many of those people do you think at your hospital are fundie and skirts-only in their personal life? I'd bet most of those people you encounter, if they are super religous, probably still wear pants outside of work. 

 Obviously Abbie Duggar is an example of someone who is skirts only but opted for scrub pants at work. But I think that's because she comes from a family, that while still very conservative, also acknowledges the real world in the sense of your kids getting an education and having a job.

The Bates (and Duggars) have built their brand on girls only wearing skirts for modesty....and Micheala is super entrenched in the coolaid. While the other sisters are all jumping on the pants train I definitely don't see Michaela joining in - especially with Brandon for a husband who is uber traditional and formal. Frankly, I'm surprised he's even on board with the whole nursing thing - but I think he's realized she needs something to do and the alternative is Michaela probably wanting to explore other ways to start a family. I'm pretty sure he'd rather see his wife be a working woman than go the route of fertility treatments or adoption.

The brand has been the skirts and modesty. While some of the married girls stray from it, you don't see them straying on camera in front of their parents. I can understand that. I had a great-aunt who was hardcore about her Baptist Church. She was one of the first members when it opened (back in the 1920s). She only wore dresses. No skirts and certainly no pants or shorts. The church had its annual picnic when she was around 87 and the deacons' wives wore shorts (not even really short ones). The woman who was a widow with no children changed her will so that the church got nothing from her. She refused to tithe or anything until they "trained those hussies to dress appropriately." 

I was a teenager when my parents began to check in on her and whatnot. At first I was required by my parents to wear dresses to visit her. However after the first month or two, my mother sat her down and said that she and I did wear pants and would do so when we came to visit and do household chores. In my mother's words, "if you want us to come clean your toilets and buy your groceries, then we're going to wear pants to do it." 

That said, most people do have certain rules or habits that they follow as adults in their parents' home. I cut back on the swearing and I wouldn't show up there drunk. In fact, my parents are not drinkers because of their heart medications. At home I have wine or a cocktail with dinner. There I usually skip it. 

In terms of Brandon, I don't know that he has/had that much objection to the whole school and work thing for Michaela. His sister(s) have jobs and even live alone in big bad cities. And though he does appear a little put off by her family, he does seem to want her to be happy. While I do feel bad for her having to live with a family that procreates like bunnies and seems to think it is the be all and end all thing in life, he also has a tough road. No doubt that people within IBLP probably look down on him for not being able to do his one job of getting her pregnant (whether the issue is with him or her) and for allowing her to work/go to school. 

It would be a huge step for them to adopt or go through more invasive treatments, especially when he works for a group that has feelings against it. That would be like going to work for Chick-Fil-A and coming out as gay, a Democrat, and a vegetarian. In other words, it isn't just his beliefs but his livelihood too. Maybe working remotely will let him open his eyes a bit more. I would be willing to bet he has a fair amount of cognitive dissonance right now with the idea of alternative means of having a child versus the belief system that he and Michael are either being punished or should continue to wait for God's timing. 

 

[pippi]

Michaela looks so excited in these pics! Before I even noticed the scrubs/read the caption, I thought her eyes seemed full of light. Actually, I saw a video clip from the show recently, and even though it would have been filmed a few months back, thought the same thing--that she looked very pretty in a way that comes with taking care of yourself and feeling happiness. 

I hope this means she is finding fulfillment. I'm glad her younger sisters will see her attending school, whether or not she'd be going under other circumstances. Too lazy to look for one of the studies on it, but seeing family members achieving higher levels of education and career work always bodes well for the younger ones. 

Also, I can't snark on Brandon's caption at all--seems proud and supportive--nor can I snark on her family's comment of being proud! I sort of hope they share a pic of her off to school, the way they share photos of Lawson's music videos, couples' milestones, etc etc...I know social media is all superficial, but in a family where it's used so publicly and they all seem to comment to each other a lot, I bet it would be meaningful to her. 

[nelliebelle1197]

Has anyone actually thought that Michaela may be happy to be infertile for now? She bore the brunt of Kelly’s choices. She was primary caregiver to at Katie on up at least. She is in her mid twenties and for the first time has a chance to actually find herself and her own person and not just the oldest Bates girl aka actual mother of 18.
 

While the fertility issues may be disheartening, I can see her being secretly relieved she can do something. As the oldest girl of 19, she was much more limited than even the typical large family oldest, like Karen Shupe or even Sarah Maxwell. Eighteen siblings and two lazy parents do not a happy childhood make. Karen and Sarah had to sister mom but it was to more than half the number of kids.  Karen and Sarah also have parents who were more involved, and the Maxwells are certainly not lazy and self involved like Gil and Kelly.

Maybe she can get her degree, work and relax. Then maybe have a baby or two later like a normal person.

This is obvious speculation but maybe, just maybe, Michael is learning to define herself outside BAYBEEES.

Edited October 5, 2019 by nelliebelle1197

[meee]

On 10/4/2019 at 7:56 PM, rebeccawriter01 said:

The brand has been the skirts and modesty. While some of the married girls stray from it, you don't see them straying on camera in front of their parents. I can understand that. I had a great-aunt who was hardcore about her Baptist Church. She was one of the first members when it opened (back in the 1920s). She only wore dresses. No skirts and certainly no pants or shorts. The church had its annual picnic when she was around 87 and the deacons' wives wore shorts (not even really short ones). The woman who was a widow with no children changed her will so that the church got nothing from her. She refused to tithe or anything until they "trained those hussies to dress appropriately." 

I was a teenager when my parents began to check in on her and whatnot. At first I was required by my parents to wear dresses to visit her. However after the first month or two, my mother sat her down and said that she and I did wear pants and would do so when we came to visit and do household chores. In my mother's words, "if you want us to come clean your toilets and buy your groceries, then we're going to wear pants to do it."

 

Wait, why are skirts any less modest than dresses?

[rebeccawriter01]

3 hours ago, meee said:

Wait, why are skirts any less modest than dresses?

To m y great aunt they were. I never asked. She actually refused to wear store bought dresses. A little old lady made each of hers. 

[theotherelise]

12 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Has anyone actually thought that Michaela may be happy to be infertile for now? She bore the brunt of Kelly’s choices. She was primary caregiver to at Katie on up at least. She is in her mid twenties and for the first time has a chance to actually find herself and her own person and not just the oldest Bates girl aka actual mother of 18.
 

While the fertility issues may be disheartening, I can see her being secretly relieved she can do something. As the oldest girl of 19, she was much more limited than even the typical large family oldest, like Karen Shupe or even Sarah Maxwell. Eighteen siblings and two lazy parents do not a happy childhood make. Karen and Sarah had to sister mom but it was to more than half the number of kids.  Karen and Sarah also have parents who were more involved, and the Maxwells are certainly not lazy and self involved like Gil and Kelly.

Maybe she can get her degree, work and relax. Then maybe have a baby or two later like a normal person.

This is obvious speculation but maybe, just maybe, Michael is learning to define herself outside BAYBEEES.

Michaela will be 30 in January. And she has in the past expressed sincere desire to have biological children and grief over her infertility. I'm not sure why we would expect that she could have a baby or two in the next 10 years "like a normal person." 

She's been married and having unprotected sex for 4 years with some medical testing and certainly significant cycle tracking if not any actual treatment. While a spontaneous pregnancy is not impossible, it is highly unlikely at this point. I don't have time to find the stats right now, but IIRC, they probably fall on the 2-5% range of ever getting pregnant spontaneously. 

But yeah, due to her circumstance, she has had to define herself outside of motherhood. It looks like she's restarting the baby blanket shop and she's pursuing a legit career. And it would be super healthy if she was in a place emotionally to reframe and appreciate her life as it is now.

[scoutsadie]

On 9/17/2019 at 8:42 AM, FluffySnowball said:

But for Gill and Kelly... I'm just not sure. They also had this horrible confederate room in their house, with photos of a KKK member if I’m not very much mistaken. 

For the record (because this should never been forgotten), that wasn't just any Ku Klux Klan member honored by the Bateses, but Confederate Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest, elected the first Grand Wizard (leader) of that hateful, racist organization.

[Melissa1977]

@nelliebelle1197 Michaela has a genuine love for babies. While other fundie eldest daugthers may secretly desire not to have children, it's in no way Michaela's case. She has obviously experienced a long time of suffering and has found a great way to make her life better. But she enjoying nursing school does not equal being happy with infertility. 

 

[nelliebelle1197]

9 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

@nelliebelle1197 Michaela has a genuine love for babies. While other fundie eldest daugthers may secretly desire not to have children, it's in no way Michaela's case. She has obviously experienced a long time of suffering and has found a great way to make her life better. But she enjoying nursing school does not equal being happy with infertility. 

 

Who knows? As I said, that was complete speculation. And frankly, we have no idea how she really feels about anything or if she is evolving and changing or the exact same person she was before marriage, if she is secretly happy or dying inside.

 I think it is funny so many people think Alyssa and Carlin slapping on jeans (not directed at you, Melissa)  means NOT FUNDIE anymore, but Michaela’s subtle rebellions have gone unnoticed. Even before she married Brandon, she got actual education at community college, not Clown. I believe she is one of the ones who did EMT training while under Daddy’s authority. 
 

Now it appears she may be getting a real degree with real worldly job prospects. This actually is a big deal- a huge deal in a world where women are defined by children and marriage. Of course, I have no illusions that she is going to leave fundamentalism behind, she is the best positioned of all the Bates to break out.

Edited October 6, 2019 by nelliebelle1197
Verbs

[QuiverFullofBooks]

12 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

she is the best positioned of all the Bates to break out.

Her husband works for IBLP. She’s in the worst position to break out.

[nelliebelle1197]

10 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Her husband works for IBLP. She’s in the worst position to break out.

I know that. I also know that Chad Paine’s father is on the board of IBLP and helped Gil lead the take over after Gothard and that Dan Webster is a nut job. They are all stuck in some way or the other, especially the oldest three girls.
 

What I also know is that Michaela is the first Bates girl to break out of the proscribed role of wife and mother to pursue a secular education. Her community college stint occurred before she married Brandon. And now she is getting what appears to be an actual nursing degree. And even though she might prefer to be home at with kids (and we legit only know what they tell us and there tends to be a lot of pigeonholing in that family- Alyssa was the cook, Carlin the teacher, Erin the musician, Michael - as she as known then - was the little mother), she is getting a degree that is going to bring her in contact with more a variety of people than most of her siblings. That is going to open her up to possibilities greater than her sisters will get as Instagramming SAHMs.

Wasn’t it Josie that was pushed into hairdressing instead of nursing not so long ago?

I don’t think any of the Bates are going to pull a Karen Shupe or Alecia Pennington, because frankly I am not sure any of them are bright enough. But the only one that comes close with secular education, backbone and potential experience with a larger world is Micheal(a). She also likely got the best SOTDRT education from Kelly but sadly most of the indoctrination as well. We’ll see.

[Audrey2]

I always thought that Michaela was so completely saturated and oozing Kool-ade that her family knew she couldn't be corrupted, not even at a community college, so she was allowed to go. I think Erin was really judgemental (she made a comment about not wanting to sit beside someone with green hi), so she chose Crown, then the others followed because it was a completely safe school 

[ifosterkittens]

Roane State Community College (fundie wiki says that is where Michael went) tuition for a 15 credit semester this fall costs $2,276. Crown College commuter tuition for 12-18 credits this fall is $3,835, so maybe money was a factor. I don’t know what the tuition was when she attended but it is likely Crown was more expensive. My guess is Michael was responsible for the cost of tuition, books, parking pass etc, and maybe her parents felt she truly believed their beliefs and wasn’t likely to be swayed by a professor or students with a different point of view. The Bates have a larger platform now, seem to fit the mold of Crown college (conservative Christian, dress modestly, not super controversial, do “mission” trips, warriors for Christ etc) perhaps the Bates now get some kind of discount to send their kids now, but not when Michael went to school. 

[llucie]

5 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

 

Wasn’t it Josie that was pushed into hairdressing instead of nursing not so long ago?

 

That was Katie. She had been saying she wanted to be a nurse since she was little. Then when she was 17 they got her into Crown to be an hairdresser, She said she still could study nursing in the future but to me seems a waste of time to be studying something else unrelated if you are so sure what you want to do. Now that she is almost courting it seems even less likely unless like Michaella she has a fertility issue that prevents her from having children the moment she marries.

[formergothardite]

5 hours ago, HA88 said:

Roane State Community College (fundie wiki says that is where Michael went) tuition for a 15 credit semester this fall costs $2,276. Crown College commuter tuition for 12-18 credits this fall is $3,835, so maybe money was a factor. I don’t know what the tuition was when she attended but it is likely Crown was more expensive.

But didn't Erin got to Clown before Micheal went to a community college? 

If anyone is going to have the best bet of breaking out it will be Micheal. The rest of the daughter are married as early as possible and started the process of popping out child after child. Even thought that might have been her plan, she actually got a real education at a real college before marriage. She hasn't had any kids and the fundie lifestyle, unlike Alyssa or Josie, isn't working out great for her. Having the lifestyle go wrong is often what pushes people to start rethinking things. 

I don't actually think she is any less fundie right now, but I think she can be perceived as more fundie then Josie with her ripped jeans or Alyssa with her modern clothing and that isn't true at all. 

[nelliebelle1197]

3 hours ago, llucie said:

That was Katie. She had been saying she wanted to be a nurse since she was little. Then when she was 17 they got her into Crown to be an hairdresser, She said she still could study nursing in the future but to me seems a waste of time to be studying something else unrelated if you are so sure what you want to do. Now that she is almost courting it seems even less likely unless like Michaella she has a fertility issue that prevents her from having children the moment she marries.

Thanks! I actually had Katie but then changed it. I always forget about Katie- she is sort of lost except when I see a picture and am newly shocked about how a 17 year old looks 32.

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

But didn't Erin got to Clown before Micheal went to a community college? 

If anyone is going to have the best bet of breaking out it will be Micheal. The rest of the daughter are married as early as possible and started the process of popping out child after child. Even thought that might have been her plan, she actually got a real education at a real college before marriage. She hasn't had any kids and the fundie lifestyle, unlike Alyssa or Josie, isn't working out great for her. Having the lifestyle go wrong is often what pushes people to start rethinking things. 

I don't actually think she is any less fundie right now, but I think she can be perceived as more fundie then Josie with her ripped jeans or Alyssa with her modern clothing and that isn't true at all. 

Yes, I do believe Erin was at Clown before Michael(a) went to community college. She went there for the music program. Michael did College Plus, which costs about the same  as Clown.

Edited October 7, 2019 by nelliebelle1197
Out out damn verbs

[JermajestyDuggar]

I think they let Michael go to a non clown college because they knew they could trust her. 

[Palimpsest]

13 hours ago, Audrey2 said:

I always thought that Michaela was so completely saturated and oozing Kool-ade that her family knew she couldn't be corrupted, not even at a community college, so she was allowed to go. 

Actually, Michael didn't "go"  exactly.  She took mainly online classes at Roane State before and after she was married.  No sitting next to green haired people required.  But she also got her EMT credentials somewhere.  For that the presence of green haired people is very possible if not probable. http://archive.knoxnews.com/entertainment/pop-culture/bringing-up-bates-star-talks-about-show-married-life-in-chicago-2c750f56-0aab-4a35-e053-0100007fe336-370116301.html

Does anyone know where she is studying for her nursing degree.  I can't remember if she ever graduated from Roane State.   She was aiming for an AA in liberal arts with a minor in health science.  I'm assuming she is now aiming for an RN.  She could go back to Roane, because her minor in health science would transfer, but as a community college it only offers an Associate's degree in nursing.  She'd have to transfer to a 4 year college to get an RN BSN.

Good wishes to her and I hope she succeeds.  She's been interested in nursing for a long time.

8 hours ago, formergothardite said:

But didn't Erin got to Clown before Micheal went to a community college? 

I don't remember.  I don't think the Bateses ever spelled out the exact chronology.  We were surprised to find Michael was taking classes at an actual accredited college when the article I linked above came out after she was married.  

Fertility issues and disappointments aside, in some ways Michael and Brandon are the couple most likely to be disenchanted by IBLP even though Brandon worked there.  They must have seen the fall-out from the Fall of Gothard first-hand.  And the scramble to reorganise and rebrand.  

Niggling at the back of my brain is a notion that Brandon's brother RJ is completely out from under IBLP influence.  It could be that he is connected with Recovering Grace.