Fire at Paris's Notre Dame Cathedral

[Beermeet]

42 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

The more I think about it, the more I legitimately need FJ Drunk History to happen. Anything David Waller related would be pure gold. ?

Drunk re-telling of the pecan gleaning.

????

[Jinder Roles]

@VelociRapture you’ve actually been very helpful and diplomatic, as usual. Thank you for taking the time. And yeah, I don’t care to adjust my tone. in this instance. It doesn’t diminish anyone’s points. 

At least one person in this thread implied how others should feel. 

I can understand the initial aversion to my tone. But it’s the least of what I said.

 But the fact the greatest takeaway from everything I said is that I’m shaming people’s feelings, is why this isn’t going to go anywhere ??‍♀️.

It’s cool. 

[ViolaSebastian]

I appreciate everyone sharing their perspective on this, as it's an issue that's come up several times on my social media and in my life. Ultimately, I agree with most of us that the U.S. should not send money to help repair Notre Dame--particularly when there are such pressing problems closer to home. I guess my question is, what is the solution, here? How do I, as a white woman, contribute to changing the social narrative that tragedies affecting minority communities are less important than those seen (correctly or incorrectly) as just "white" tragedies? I feel as though I've somehow acted wrongly in all of this, which is why I've brought it up. I want to do better, and I do feel a certain amount of shame that I've been upset over Notre Dame burning--because ultimately, it is more important that the children imprisoned at the border are reunited with their parents or that Flint gets clean drinking water. So what do I do? Say nothing?

 

[Beermeet]

Personally,  I spend some time, often, thinking about the division in America.  Because, all though we are Americans together,  we are so very separate.  Unlike say, France. They are French. Our ancestors came from all countries. We are on Native soil. It never was "ours". We came freely or forcefully.  Either way,  I don't think *we* can ever be truly united like other countries.  We don't share the same history.  

I don't have an answer.  I did chose to listen. Shut up and listen to my fellow Americans in the minority.  Believe them when they share. It is their truth and therefore my truth despite my prior knowledge or lack thereof.  

[AliceInFundyland]

Wait a minute. Not everyone in France came from France.

And just as we white US citizens shouldn’t put our experience on minorities, we don’t need to take on theirs. Mutual understanding is necessary for a balanced society. We need to hear each other and listen. Guilt really isn’t the solution. 

I’m sorry if that sounds idealistic again. But I’m not going to be an apologist. Or feel ashamed. I don’t see how that solves problems. I understand what @ViolaSebastian is getting at. What is the solution? I don’t know. 

Further your knowledge. Look outside your bubble. Challenge your beliefs. Etc.

But don’t shame yourself for feeling sad over tragedies. Seriously. I refuse to think that makes anyone a bad person. You feel what you feel.

[Beermeet]

I'm not very good discussing such things online. If we were in person discussing over some coffee, I could express myself properly.  Personally,  I don't feel guilty for other people's wrong doings in the past.

I meant that, growing up we focused on our Italian heritage way more than being Americans.  So did the Irish, Polish and Jewish population where I grew up. Most towns are Native American words where I grew up. So, unlike other countries, *we* are very spread out to me.  It's an observation. Again, our history here in America is all over the place, we are a melting pot. It's not wrong or right, it just is.  I love my country.  I love our diversity.  I don't love how it came to be necessarily but nothing I can do about that but move forward and honor our differences. Of course other countries have non-native people but not like we do. I hope that was clearer.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, Beermeet said:

Of course other countries have non-native people but not like we do. I hope that was clearer.  

Yes, they do.

Go back in European history and see how the Angles and Saxons and Normans and Romans, and Norse, and Celts ad nauseaum traveled and criss-crossed the continent conquering each other and melding into new cultures and ethnic groups.

Yes, the US has an ugly history but we aren't the only ones.  History is full of ugliness because human nature has ugly aspects to it.

History is also full of decency and beauty because human nature contains that, too.

Canda's First Nations have valid issues with how that country was settled as much as Native Americans.

Genetically many people from South and Central America are an ad-mixture of indigenous people and European.  And the indigenous people once crossed a land bridge from Asia if you go back far enough.

To see other countries as homogenous cultures it so be blind to their diversity, which is there even if statistically less than our "country of immigrants."

I can feel bad for things that have happened in history but I only accept responsibility for my own actions.  

 

 

[VelociRapture]

3 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

I appreciate everyone sharing their perspective on this, as it's an issue that's come up several times on my social media and in my life. Ultimately, I agree with most of us that the U.S. should not send money to help repair Notre Dame--particularly when there are such pressing problems closer to home. I guess my question is, what is the solution, here? How do I, as a white woman, contribute to changing the social narrative that tragedies affecting minority communities are less important than those seen (correctly or incorrectly) as just "white" tragedies? I feel as though I've somehow acted wrongly in all of this, which is why I've brought it up. I want to do better, and I do feel a certain amount of shame that I've been upset over Notre Dame burning--because ultimately, it is more important that the children imprisoned at the border are reunited with their parents or that Flint gets clean drinking water. So what do I do? Say nothing?

 

I don’t think you should feel badly for being upset at all. It is upsetting when you see something meaningful to you damaged in such a significant way. I think that’s what some people have really been trying to point out - that it hurts horribly when society as a whole ignores something that’s meaningful to you and is causing you pain. It’s not something you should blame yourself for because you only know what you know. If the media isn’t telling you something terrible happened and no one in your life is talking about it then I don’t think anyone can reasonably expect you to know. 

I think one way you can help is helping to share stories concerning events that impact minority communities, especially stories you hear about in your local community. If someone dies something cool - like a kid wins an award for a subject you’re interested in - then share it with the people you love and talk about what impressed you about it. My sister is a teacher and loves sharing stories about all her kids doing great things, but especially her minority and low-income students because they’re often overlooked or dismissed by a lot of people. If you see a story about a local Mosque holding a charity event for something then mention that and talk about ways you think it’ll be helpful for the community. If you try out a local business run by someone who is a minority and you enjoyed what they offer then share about it with the people you know. Talk to the kids in your life about minority people throughout history who have made important contributions to the world- and not just the Martin Luther Kings or Rosa Parks because they’ll likely hear about them a bit in school (if you’re American. I’m not sure about other countries.) I’ve found that the “Goodnight Stories for Rebel Girls” books are fantastic introductions to various women from all over the world and throughout history. I’ve actually learned a lot from reading the stories to my daughter. The “Ordinary People Change the World” series is fantastic for this as well - my daughter used to request the book about MLK all the time a few months ago. We also have a copy of “The Legend of Hobbomock: The Sleeping Giant“ which is by a local author and tells a version of an oral legend by the Quinnipiac people, who used to live on the land where we live now - I’m hoping that as she grows older it’ll help spark conversations about what actually happened to the indigenous tribes of the area, so I can be sure she gets a more honest version of history then she might get otherwise. 

And, likewise, do what you can to speak out if you hear someone making racist (or other -ist) comments. This is especially important if it’s someone you know well because they’ll likely take your opinion more seriously then they would a stranger’s. You don’t need to be mean about or give a long lecture, but you should be firm about how that language or view isn’t acceptable and you’re disappointed they’d use it. If something happens and you feel comfortable, then I’d recommend attending a vigil or rally as well to show your support. I participated in a vigil in my town following Charlottesville because I was so disgusted by the fact that literal Nazis were marching around calling for the deaths of anyone not white as snow and I took my baby with me. I ended up deciding that might not be the best way for me to help afterwards, but that was because I was suffering pretty severe anxiety at the time and was having panic attacks (for unrelated reasons, but I decided it was best to avoid putting myself into situations where I might trigger a panic attack for a while.)

And if you feel you aren’t able to attend a rally or vigil then considering making a donation of money or time to a reputable and related charity of your choice - for instance, the ACLU is great at defending immigrant rights, freedom of the press, and civil rights all of which are extremely important for society as a whole, but are also extremely important for helping minority groups simply exist as well. Charity Navigator also compiled a list of charities to donate to during black history month as well. One of those could be a good choice for you or someone else you know who is looking for a new charity to support. Attending events or volunteering your time are also fantastic ways to meet people different from you and simply talking with different people can help educate you and help you find new ways to be an ally.

Basically, do what you can as the opportunity presents itself. 

(And sorry this is so long! I thought it was a great question though and wanted to give you a decent answer.  )

ETA: Oh! And also support politicians that are about inclusivity and who support civil rights. Changing laws is a very important way to help minority groups integrate into society and live decent lives and the only way to do that is to ensure we have people in charge who are for those things. And let your local media know when you’re pleased or displeased with their coverage/lack of coverage regarding minority issues as well. If you see something has happened through social media or word of mouth that local media hasn’t covered let them know about it - and then give them feedback if they do/don’t rectify that. 

[Beermeet]

Well, we all view things slightly differently.  Different life experiences and all.  No one needs to agree with me. My thoughts are not fact. I've had some great discussions about this sort of thing with fellow Americans and immigrants who made America home.  My new coworker is American but grew up in Tijuana, raised by her adoptive Mexican family. It's been fun and interesting to hear what she has to say about the different cultures.  At no point did I feel the need to debate her or correct her.  It's not a one up conversation.  It's sharing our thoughts and observations.  I think it's interesting and worth chatting about. I really don't need to be lectured on human migration.  We are all expressing our thoughts here.  My point is not coming across it seems.  Oh well.  Maybe just not a place to do that here. I had a feeling it may not go well and refrained from posting but decided to go for it.  Reminder to follow my my instincts!

[SilverBeach]

I'm black, with black Catholic relatives. They felt sad about the fire, and understood saving the hosts. I feel bad about the fire, although I am not Catholic. I am also angry about the minimization of the suffering of black and brown people (Katrina? Puerto Rico?) especially when done by the government. I'm a realist though, and white, euro-centric culture will dominate in the US as long as whites are the most powerful group. Nothing wrong with engaging in a little consciousness raising to counter that, but it's not a simple black-white issue, no pun intended. The ND issue is a separate issue, to me, from the larger issue of the marginalization of black and brown people. The presidunce is a damn racist fool and him wanting to give money to France is as stupid as he is. 

[ViolaSebastian]

19 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I don’t think you should feel badly for being upset at all. It is upsetting when you see something meaningful to you damaged in such a significant way. I think that’s what some people have really been trying to point out - that it hurts horribly when society as a whole ignores something that’s meaningful to you and is causing you pain. It’s not something you should blame yourself for because you only know what you know. If the media isn’t telling you something terrible happened and no one in your life is talking about it then I don’t think anyone can reasonably expect you to know. 

I think one way you can help is helping to share stories concerning events that impact minority communities, especially stories you hear about in your local community. If someone dies something cool - like a kid wins an award for a subject you’re interested in - then share it with the people you love and talk about what impressed you about it. My sister is a teacher and loves sharing stories about all her kids doing great things, but especially her minority and low-income students because they’re often overlooked or dismissed by a lot of people. If you see a story about a local Mosque holding a charity event for something then mention that and talk about ways you think it’ll be helpful for the community. If you try out a local business run by someone who is a minority and you enjoyed what they offer then share about it with the people you know. Talk to the kids in your life about minority people throughout history who have made important contributions to the world- and not just the Martin Luther Kings or Rosa Parks because they’ll likely hear about them a bit in school (if you’re American. I’m not sure about other countries.) I’ve found that the “Goodnight Stories for Rebel Girls” books are fantastic introductions to various women from all over the world and throughout history. I’ve actually learned a lot from reading the stories to my daughter. The “Ordinary People Change the World” series is fantastic for this as well - my daughter used to request the book about MLK all the time a few months ago. We also have a copy of “The Legend of Hobbomock: The Sleeping Giant“ which is by a local author and tells a version of an oral legend by the Quinnipiac people, who used to live on the land where we live now - I’m hoping that as she grows older it’ll help spark conversations about what actually happened to the indigenous tribes of the area, so I can be sure she gets a more honest version of history then she might get otherwise. 

And, likewise, do what you can to speak out if you hear someone making racist (or other -ist) comments. This is especially important if it’s someone you know well because they’ll likely take your opinion more seriously then they would a stranger’s. You don’t need to be mean about or give a long lecture, but you should be firm about how that language or view isn’t acceptable and you’re disappointed they’d use it. If something happens and you feel comfortable, then I’d recommend attending a vigil or rally as well to show your support. I participated in a vigil in my town following Charlottesville because I was so disgusted by the fact that literal Nazis were marching around calling for the deaths of anyone not white as snow and I took my baby with me. I ended up deciding that might not be the best way for me to help afterwards, but that was because I was suffering pretty severe anxiety at the time and was having panic attacks (for unrelated reasons, but I decided it was best to avoid putting myself into situations where I might trigger a panic attack for a while.)

And if you feel you aren’t able to attend a rally or vigil then considering making a donation of money or time to a reputable and related charity of your choice - for instance, the ACLU is great at defending immigrant rights, freedom of the press, and civil rights all of which are extremely important for society as a whole, but are also extremely important for helping minority groups simply exist as well. Charity Navigator also compiled a list of charities to donate to during black history month as well. One of those could be a good choice for you or someone else you know who is looking for a new charity to support. Attending events or volunteering your time are also fantastic ways to meet people different from you and simply talking with different people can help educate you and help you find new ways to be an ally.

Basically, do what you can as the opportunity presents itself. 

(And sorry this is so long! I thought it was a great question though and wanted to give you a decent answer.  )

ETA: Oh! And also support politicians that are about inclusivity and who support civil rights. Changing laws is a very important way to help minority groups integrate into society and live decent lives and the only way to do that is to ensure we have people in charge who are for those things. And let your local media know when you’re pleased or displeased with their coverage/lack of coverage regarding minority issues as well. If you see something has happened through social media or word of mouth that local media hasn’t covered let them know about it - and then give them feedback if they do/don’t rectify that. 

I appreciate your detailed response, @VelociRapture--but I meant specifically about Notre Dame. How was I "supposed" to react? What was the appropriate response, since my response was apparently not acceptable?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

13 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

It's sharing our thoughts and observations.  I think it's interesting and worth chatting about. I really don't need to be lectured on human migration.  We are all expressing our thoughts here. 

You stated something as a fact,

Quote

"Of course other countries have non-native people but not like we do."

Pointing out that that is factually incorrect is not lecturing you, it's not allowing a falsehood to stand there unrebutted as other people read this.

Thoughts, observations, feelings...all fine and valid...and subjective.  But when you state something as fact you should expect people to comment on those facts. 

 

[Beermeet]

Just now, ViolaSebastian said:

I appreciate your detailed response, @VelociRapture--but I meant specifically about Notre Dame. How was I "supposed" to react? What was the appropriate response, since my response was apparently not acceptable?

I thought your response was perfectly acceptable and yours. What you feel matters!  No need to placate anyone. I appreciated your feelings on the subject. I'm really sad about Notre Dame. Now, I'm kinda excited to see her rebuilt over time and see the pictures.  ?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

8 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

The presidunce is a damn racist fool and him wanting to give money to France is as stupid as he is. 

I bet that's something most of us can agree on.  God knows I do!

5 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

What was the appropriate response, since my response was apparently not acceptable?

To whom?  Because one poster on the internet mocked people who cared?  Why would you let that invalidate your feelings?

 

[ViolaSebastian]

3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

To whom?  Because one poster on the internet mocked people who cared?  Why would you let that invalidate your feelings?

At least on my social media, this is a thought that's been widely shared. For example, the meme that I posted a few pages back has 458 comments, all expressing similar views. So while it's isolated to one person here, it's certainly not just one person here on FJ.

[Jinder Roles]

1 minute ago, ViolaSebastian said:

I appreciate your detailed response, @VelociRapture--but I meant specifically about Notre Dame. How was I "supposed" to react? What was the appropriate response, since my response was apparently not acceptable?

There’s no one way you’re “supposed” to react. @AliceInFundyland is correct when she said you feel how you feel. Guilt isn’t a perquisite to fixing anything. You cannot as an individual fix any complex societal issue.

In general,  read, make space for people who’ve had experiences of oppression, speak to your friends about stuff (particularly your white friends), interrogate yourself on how and why you do things. If you think anything about that is problematic, try to improve. 

White guilt is a hell of a thing to navigate. I think a lot of it comes from an  onslaught of awareness and this lingering idea that any unconscious bias is a personal moral failing rather than a societal inevitability.

Know that your personal feelings and character are not under attack, nor are they the crux of the issue. 

[VelociRapture]

12 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

I appreciate your detailed response, @VelociRapture--but I meant specifically about Notre Dame. How was I "supposed" to react? What was the appropriate response, since my response was apparently not acceptable?

Oh. Sorry! I got away from myself a little bit and misread your comment. ?

 

[AliceInFundyland]

@Jinder Roles If you are bringing my name back into your commentary then perhaps you can see that I was not telling you how to feel and my remarks were misinterpreted in the overarcing scale of the discussion.

I hope so. 

ETA: I see. Then I respectfully request that you stop tagging me.

[littlemommy]

I would say I went about the grand majority of my life never thinking about Notre Dame. I knew it existed, I knew there were famous books and movies connected to it, I could identify a picture of it if I saw one. But beyond being a famous place I knew of I never really cared much about it.

But when I saw on the news that it was on fire my breath caught. It was the same sort of reaction I have when certain famous people die--people I never knew personally but knew *about*, had seen on the television or movie screen sometimes. Seeing the pictures of it burning made me sad because the world was losing something old and beautiful that many people enjoyed. 

[Beermeet]

15 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

You stated something as a fact,

Pointing out that that is factually incorrect is not lecturing you, it's not allowing a falsehood to stand there unrebutted as other people read this.

Thoughts, observations, feelings...all fine and valid...and subjective.  But when you state something as fact you should expect people to comment on those 

I think it is true though. America is young. Only a few hundred years. Our shared history here starts when our families came here, unless you are Native American. Prior to that, our individual histories come from other established countries. You know what I mean? We just don't have thousands of years filled with kingdoms,dynasties and history like that here. We don't live amongst historical sites. That's mostly what I meant.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, Beermeet said:

I think it is true though. America is young. Only a few hundred years. Our shared history here starts when our families came here, unless you are Native American. Prior to that, our individual histories come from other established countries. You know what I mean? We just don't have thousands of years filled with kingdoms,dynasties and history like that here. We don't live amongst historical sites. That's mostly what I meant.

 

I agree with that - our culture is younger because our country is still in it's comparative infancy.

My issue was use of the word native because when it comes to Europeans that's a very fluid concept in most countries apart from genetically relatively isolated places like Finland and Iceland.  

But I was overly focused on the semantics which isn't helpful, for that I apologize.

 

 

[Carm_88]

42 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

I appreciate your detailed response, @VelociRapture--but I meant specifically about Notre Dame. How was I "supposed" to react? What was the appropriate response, since my response was apparently not acceptable?

You react from the heart and ignore the whataboutism. People will always try to bring others down and say that they are wrong. People's hearts are huge and we can feel horrible about many, many things. 

What people do on social media is to make you feel guilty. They do the same thing when they say "Basic White Girl" and make fun of pumpkin spice lattes, leggings, and uggs. Why does it matter if someone likes those things? Why does it matter if someone mourns for a piece of history? Because the person attempting to make you feel like you are less because you're part of a crowd. Because a crowd of people like one thing or feel sad about one thing, that means that it's mockable. 

I wouldn't let other people dictate how I should feel about anything. If I want to cry over a church, I can. If I want to cry over a Walmart Christmas Commercial, I will.  I'm not going to apologize for liking what I like, I didn't put my life on yelp to be reviewed; so what people say or thing about my thoughts and feelings are pretty invalid. 

[Vivi_music]

My French boyfriend wants to add something to this discussion (because I'm narrating him the comments). France IS a country of immigration and has been at least since the industrial revolution. Just within Europe: Jewish communities fleeing the pogroms, Polish and Italian workers, Spanish, Russians and Armenians political refugees . And since the fall of the French colonies, you can add to that: Vietnamese, Algerians, Morrocans, West Africans.

It is a myth that France is a pure white ''nation-state''.

Edit: Not saying these wave of immigration went (or are going) smoothly. A lot of French within France feel threatened by immigrants in general and WISH they could have a pure nation-state for the French and by the French (sadly). But just wanted to clarify that there are people within France with many different cultural backgrounds.

 

[Jinder Roles]

46 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

@Jinder Roles If you are bringing my name back into your commentary then perhaps you can see that I was not telling you how to feel and my remarks were misinterpreted in the overarcing scale of the discussion.

I hope so. 

ETA: I see. Then I respectfully request that you stop tagging me.

If you read it,  you’d see I was agreeing with you.  

But you seem determined to misunderstand me, so the fact that you hope that I do so is hilariously ironic. 

Respectfully, Mute me ??‍♀️.