Duggars by the Dozen 37: Your new thread

[Meggo]

22 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

 

This law is not meant to protect anyone. It is meant to be a first challenge toRoe v. Wade and is meant to control women, especially low income and minority women. Women like me - white and at least solidly middle class - will still be capable of traveling out of state for abortions. Who’s going to stop them? Are there going to be special police at the airports and borders with ultrasound machines and pregnancy tests to be sure no one pregnant leaves? No. There won’t be. This law will be an inconvenience for some women, but the women who can’t leave the state for a safe abortion will suffer the most and be most at risk. It’s disgusting in so many ways. 

It's not about protecting "babies" since some dillhole politician said that fertilized embryos didn't count in this (as in - you can destroy those - it's not an abortion) because those aren't in the mother. So ... really - it's about women. Controlling women. Poor women, likely - since those who can afford it - will magically take a trip to somewhere else. 

It's disgusting.

I'm ashamed to be American these days...

[VelociRapture]

23 minutes ago, Meggo said:

It's not about protecting "babies" since some dillhole politician said that fertilized embryos didn't count in this (as in - you can destroy those - it's not an abortion) because those aren't in the mother. So ... really - it's about women. Controlling women. Poor women, likely - since those who can afford it - will magically take a trip to somewhere else. 

It's disgusting.

I'm ashamed to be American these days...

Same. Ten percent of babies in the US are born prematurely each year, black American mothers are three times as likely to die due to pregnancy complications than their white counterparts, among developed nations the US has one of the highest (if not the highest) maternal mortality rates due to pregnancy complications, and paid family leave is a topic left up to individual states and companies to decide - meaning that many new parents either aren’t paid to take time off with their newborn or they have no choice but to return to work early. 

Of those statistics, two apply to my own family - my daughter was born prematurely and my sister had to return to work at six and five weeks after having each of her sons due to not being able to afford to stay home longer. 

But yeah. Let’s focus on punishing women who are already in a difficult situation and the Doctors who dare to provide them with the care they need. That’s the way to prove you care about children - not things that will actually help like paid family leave (for any caregivers, not just parents), funding for premature birth and pregnancy complications research, better training to better address racial disparities in medical care, or funding universal preschool so all kids have a good start to school. 

Edited May 16, 2019 by VelociRapture

[zcccrv]

I'm not American so this may sound ignorant but, as an outsider, what comes to mind reading about this horrible law and the general treatment US women get during and after pregnancy- why is there no uproar about this? Where are all those celebrity women from #metoo, where are the feminists, journalists, bloggers... how is this not a bigger issue? Maybe I'm just not seeing it because I don't follow media that closely. Equal pay for equal work gets publicly discussed, harasment is a hot topic, female financial independency is celebrated- but abortion laws and maternity leave policies don't seem to be as relevant. ?

[VelociRapture]

5 minutes ago, zcccrv said:

I'm not American so this may sound ignorant but, as an outsider, what comes to mind reading about this horrible law and the general treatment US women get during and after pregnancy- why is there no uproar about this? Where are all those celebrity women from #metoo, where are the feminists, journalists, bloggers... how is this not a bigger issue? Maybe I'm just not seeing it because I don't follow media that closely. Equal pay for equal work gets publicly discussed, harasment is a hot topic, female financial independency is celebrated- but abortion laws and maternity leave policies don't seem to be as relevant. ?

You’re definitely not paying attention close enough. There’s been a massive uproar here over the abortion laws - from both the general public AND from celebrities and politicians as well. Paid family leave has also been brought up by multiple Democratic Presidential candidates running for 2020 too. 

[zcccrv]

8 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

You’re definitely not paying attention close enough. There’s been a massive uproar here over the abortion laws - from both the general public AND from celebrities and politicians as well. Paid family leave has also been brought up by multiple Democratic Presidential candidates running for 2020 too. 

Thanks, that's good to hear!

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

Has anyone here ever used a doula or know someone who did?  Just curious as to how that experience worked for someone.

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, zcccrv said:

I'm not American so this may sound ignorant but, as an outsider, what comes to mind reading about this horrible law and the general treatment US women get during and after pregnancy- why is there no uproar about this? Where are all those celebrity women from #metoo, where are the feminists, journalists, bloggers... how is this not a bigger issue? Maybe I'm just not seeing it because I don't follow media that closely. Equal pay for equal work gets publicly discussed, harasment is a hot topic, female financial independency is celebrated- but abortion laws and maternity leave policies don't seem to be as relevant. ?

Unfortunately, there is still a great deal of misogyny in the USA, with white men having most of the power and control. In addition, children do not vote, so they are totally disregarded in the US in terms of these types of conversations. Sadly, the US is still all about money, power and control. Those with the money have all the power and control. The majority of those folks are white men.

[surgicalmusicalchairs]

9 hours ago, Someone Out There said:

I would point out that Abortion is mostly illegal in Poland (there are a few exceptions) so not all of Europe has easily available Abortions.

@Iamtheway asssuming you have enrolled to vote in Australia (theoretically you should enrol at age 18 but not everyone does) then it is illegal not to vote.  You get a small fine (I think it is $AU20 or so) for not voting.  I believe people are more likely to make a Donkey/invalid vote than to not go to the polling station and or early/postal vote (drawing pictures on your voting paper is considered an invalid vote).

I did say Western Europe. I don’t consider Poland to be in Western Europe, sorry.??‍♀️

[Bad Wolf]

I was listening on public radio today to an interview with a senator from MO (I think). The interviewer brought up the thought of  a 12 year old, raped by a family member. The senator acknowledged that happens, but abortion would be cruel and unusual punishment for the fetus!!!! What about back street abortions which will once again endanger women's lives?  Basically he couldn't care less.

I weep.

[Cleopatra7]

2 hours ago, zcccrv said:

I'm not American so this may sound ignorant but, as an outsider, what comes to mind reading about this horrible law and the general treatment US women get during and after pregnancy- why is there no uproar about this? Where are all those celebrity women from #metoo, where are the feminists, journalists, bloggers... how is this not a bigger issue? Maybe I'm just not seeing it because I don't follow media that closely. Equal pay for equal work gets publicly discussed, harasment is a hot topic, female financial independency is celebrated- but abortion laws and maternity leave policies don't seem to be as relevant. ?

I think that abortion is such a controversial topic in the US that a lot of people don’t want to touch it. I don’t know how it is in Western Europe but here it’s rare to even have fictional characters have abortions in movies and TV. It’s so radioactive that people don’t even want to talk about it, which I think plays into the various right wing narratives about abortion. Consequently, you won’t find mainstream Democratic politicians stating forthright that abortion is a social good but instead will talk about how tragic it is, etc. There’s also a school of thought that thinks that if the Democratic Party is more accepting of anti-abortion views then it will get more “white working class” support (spoiler: those voter left because of the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act and they aren’t coming back unless Jim Crow 2.0 comes into being).

[AussieKrissy]

3 hours ago, zcccrv said:

I'm not American so this may sound ignorant but, as an outsider, what comes to mind reading about this horrible law and the general treatment US women get during and after pregnancy- why is there no uproar about this? Where are all those celebrity women from #metoo, where are the feminists, journalists, bloggers... how is this not a bigger issue? Maybe I'm just not seeing it because I don't follow media that closely. Equal pay for equal work gets publicly discussed, harasment is a hot topic, female financial independency is celebrated- but abortion laws and maternity leave policies don't seem to be as relevant. ?

The only one I have seen push back from is Josh Gad (olaf and Gaston) so far 

[Ivycoveredtower]

1 minute ago, AussieKrissy said:

The only one I have seen push back from is Josh Gad (olaf and Gaston) so far 

oh guess you missed Alyssa Milano. 

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/05/13/abortion-law-alyssa-milano-sex-strike-vpx.hln

[AussieKrissy]

11 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

oh guess you missed Alyssa Milano. 

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/05/13/abortion-law-alyssa-milano-sex-strike-vpx.hln

most awesome

[Vivi_music]

As any fundie praised or posted something pro-life about the Alabama law so far? They seemed so eager to post a ton of ''bleeding heart'' messages on their social media when New York State passed the Reproductive Health Care Act last January. I even remember Erin posting about adopting all the babies.

Have none of them praised the Lord for this new Alabama law or they are afraid of the backlash? Come on Fundies, show us your true colors! Stop trying to look nice, worldy and pretty on social media. But here at Freejinger we know that despite your nice make-up and skirts above the knees, you believe the same backward and patriarcal bullshit as the dumb all-white male Alabama lawmakers. How about adopting all the unwanted babies that women will be forced to bring to this world now Miss Erin? ??

Sorry I am mad tonight.

[zcccrv]

9 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I think that abortion is such a controversial topic in the US that a lot of people don’t want to touch it. I don’t know how it is in Western Europe but here it’s rare to even have fictional characters have abortions in movies and TV. It’s so radioactive that people don’t even want to talk about it, which I think plays into the various right wing narratives about abortion. Consequently, you won’t find mainstream Democratic politicians stating forthright that abortion is a social good but instead will talk about how tragic it is, etc. There’s also a school of thought that thinks that if the Democratic Party is more accepting of anti-abortion views then it will get more “white working class” support (spoiler: those voter left because of the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act and they aren’t coming back unless Jim Crow 2.0 comes into being).

It seems money really trumps everything in modern human society. The more money at stake, the less human we become. I'm not in western Europe but let's call it central. My country is largely Catholic- about 85% of people declare themselves Catholic. The church has special agreements with the state which make for tax exemption and all kinds of privileges. We are probably similar to Poland and N Ireland in mentality. Yet abortion has always been legal. There are some leanings to limit it- it is now legal for doctors to refuse to do abortions which causes problems for women in smaller cities if they have to go to a larger hospital to be attended to. But our situation, even with the all-encompasing religious tradition is still miles better than in the US. The deciding factor has to be money (political kind)- I don't really see a different explanation. 

[VelociRapture]

8 hours ago, Vivi_music said:

As any fundie praised or posted something pro-life about the Alabama law so far? They seemed so eager to post a ton of ''bleeding heart'' messages on their social media when New York State passed the Reproductive Health Care Act last January. I even remember Erin posting about adopting all the babies.

Have none of them praised the Lord for this new Alabama law or they are afraid of the backlash? Come on Fundies, show us your true colors! Stop trying to look nice, worldy and pretty on social media. But here at Freejinger we know that despite your nice make-up and skirts above the knees, you believe the same backward and patriarcal bullshit as the dumb all-white male Alabama lawmakers. How about adopting all the unwanted babies that women will be forced to bring to this world now Miss Erin? ??

Sorry I am mad tonight.

Lawson tweeted something nasty in response to Jameela Jamil discussing the law. You can see that over in the Lawson Bates thread. She had talked about having an abortion when she was younger and that it was the best choice she could have made for herself and her baby. Here’s her Instagram post about it:

Lawson has a nasty habit of specifically calling out minority women about stuff like this. I’m guessing that due to his bad cases of mansplanining and white saviorism. 

Sophia Bush (of “One Tree Hill”):

Spoiler

 

Sophie Turner (of “Game of Thrones”):

Spoiler

 

That’s just a small sample from celebrities I follow on Instagram. There are likely a lot more speaking out though.

So yeah. People are absolutely pissed off and talking about it in the States. I know people who barely mention politics on Facebook who are fired up over these laws. I’d guess our non-American posters aren’t seeing the pushback we are because their media might not be covering it - just like our media doesn’t cover everything in other countries. I can assure all of you though, the pushback is very real.

ETA: Oh! And, of course, “The Daily Show with Trevor Noah,” has covered it as well:

Spoiler

 

Trevor is originally from South Africa, so I can’t really deem him a national treasure of the US. I really want to though. He’s been a fantastic successor to Jon Stewart.

Edited May 17, 2019 by VelociRapture

[theotherelise]

I'm in MO where they are likely today going to finish passing an 8 week abortion ban with no exceptions for rape or incest. While it may seem like there is this sudden push from the outside (and certainly the gall in these most recent bills is to a new level now Kav is on the court), we've been dealing with increasing abortion restrictions in MO for over 10 years now. 

The Daily did a really great two part podcast about the abortion wars and their focus was on the last open clinic in MO (in St. Louis) and one in Illinois over the state line: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/17/podcasts/the-daily/abortion-missouri.html

I drive past the last clinic whose abortion services were shut down every single day on my way to and from work. There are STILL protesters out front most days, even though they are no longer able to provide abortions. Somebody lit the place on fire a few months ago.

But this battle was waged for years and years. Finding doctors who could serve our area was hard, then they added a 72 hour waiting period. They added parental consent. They tried to add consent from the biological father, I believe, but I'm not sure that passed. They required all doctors have admitting privileges to hospitals. We're a college town, our biggest hospital system is the university hospital. Our local abortion provider doctor had admitting privileges there, but then the state legislature essentially threatened to remove a bunch of funding from the university if they kept allowing the admitting privileges of the doctor. The university had already lost a lot of state funding after racial justice protests on campus. Eventually things escalated with an attack on all fronts and they stopped providing abortion services there.

It can seem like we aren't outraged from the outside. But we don't really have that much to do about it. Our legislature doesn't listen to us and our state has gotten redder and redder. Apparently this 8-week ban was instigated because the super pro-life wing of legislators in the state senate was holding all other priorities hostage with fillibusters until the leadership called a vote on this. I mean, if it had been that important to them, they would have passed it before the last week of session and thrown an emergency clause on it to be effective right away. 

Aside from doing an initiative petition to get an abortion protection law added to our state constitution (which would fail in our state!), there isn't anything we can do. Our best hope right now is that John Roberts decides he doesn't want to disrupt 50 years of precedent. But I imagine we are at least a year away from a decision there? Idk, seems like next June would be likely for that. 

We've been marching and calling and knocking on doors for 2.5 years. We've been able to slow some things down, but the state gerrymandering and the constant attacks are not always surmountable. 

[karen77]

18 minutes ago, theotherelise said:

I'm in MO where they are likely today going to finish passing an 8 week abortion ban with no exceptions for rape or incest. While it may seem like there is this sudden push from the outside (and certainly the gall in these most recent bills is to a new level now Kav is on the court), we've been dealing with increasing abortion restrictions in MO for over 10 years now. 

The Daily did a really great two part podcast about the abortion wars and their focus was on the last open clinic in MO (in St. Louis) and one in Illinois over the state line: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/17/podcasts/the-daily/abortion-missouri.html

I drive past the last clinic whose abortion services were shut down every single day on my way to and from work. There are STILL protesters out front most days, even though they are no longer able to provide abortions. Somebody lit the place on fire a few months ago.

But this battle was waged for years and years. Finding doctors who could serve our area was hard, then they added a 72 hour waiting period. They added parental consent. They tried to add consent from the biological father, I believe, but I'm not sure that passed. They required all doctors have admitting privileges to hospitals. We're a college town, our biggest hospital system is the university hospital. Our local abortion provider doctor had admitting privileges there, but then the state legislature essentially threatened to remove a bunch of funding from the university if they kept allowing the admitting privileges of the doctor. The university had already lost a lot of state funding after racial justice protests on campus. Eventually things escalated with an attack on all fronts and they stopped providing abortion services there.

It can seem like we aren't outraged from the outside. But we don't really have that much to do about it. Our legislature doesn't listen to us and our state has gotten redder and redder. Apparently this 8-week ban was instigated because the super pro-life wing of legislators in the state senate was holding all other priorities hostage with fillibusters until the leadership called a vote on this. I mean, if it had been that important to them, they would have passed it before the last week of session and thrown an emergency clause on it to be effective right away. 

Aside from doing an initiative petition to get an abortion protection law added to our state constitution (which would fail in our state!), there isn't anything we can do. Our best hope right now is that John Roberts decides he doesn't want to disrupt 50 years of precedent. But I imagine we are at least a year away from a decision there? Idk, seems like next June would be likely for that. 

We've been marching and calling and knocking on doors for 2.5 years. We've been able to slow some things down, but the state gerrymandering and the constant attacks are not always surmountable. 

All these things make me glad I live in a state that had legal abortion before Roe V Wade. All of this is just so mind blowing that people think they can do this to women. I just can't even. 

[VelociRapture]

For anyone interested, this article includes information on which states have laws that protect/limit/ban abortion on the books. Its good to know just on the chance that Roe v. Wade ever is overturned. 

Here’s a screenshot of states where abortion would be protected:

My state, Connecticut, thankfully has laws that protect the right to abortion up until the point of viability. It’s one of the biggest reasons why we don’t intend to leave the state - Connecticut has its issues, but husband and I feel safer raising our kids somewhere where their right to choose (or their partner’s right to choose) is protected. 

Edited May 17, 2019 by VelociRapture

[finnlassie]

I need to fucking stop browsing FreeJinger before I go to bed, the Doogerboogers keep showing up in various forms. The minigolf nudgie wudgie emoticon was a part of my nap. I hate remembering dreams so vividly!

[AliceInFundyland]

@VelociRapture

Yeah, I feel similarly about Oregon/left coast. I try and contemplate a life that moves me elsewhere. And it's just... Where?

Oklahoma? (with family? Um, not unless my mom is in dire need of help. And she's pretty over it herself.)

ETA : We did just cave in on a stringent vaccination bill. That was disappointing. But we have crazy left and right people. It was going to be tough.

Edited May 17, 2019 by AliceInFundyland

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, AliceInFundyland said:

@VelociRapture

Yeah, I feel similarly about Oregon/left coast. I try and contemplate a life that moves me elsewhere. And it's just... Where?

Oklahoma? (with family? Um, not unless my mom is in dire need of help. And she's pretty over it herself.)

ETA : We did just cave in on a stringent vaccination bill. That was disappointing. But we have crazy left and right people. It was going to be tough.

We’ve thought about it as well. My husband had an opportunity to move to North Carolina about six or seven years ago thanks to a job offer from a client. We turned it down because we didn’t trust the client (which was good because I don’t think that company is in business anymore) and because my husband wanted to stay in public Accounting, but we were tempted. Cost of living seems more reasonable down there and my husband had really liked the Charlotte area where we would have been located. Ultimately I’m glad we stayed here for a lot of reasons, but reproductive freedom is one of them as is proximity to our families.

I feel extremely lucky we’re able to stay here though. A lot of people are moving away from the state because it’s too expensive. As it is we’ll be house hunting as soon as next week and we already know we’re priced out of the county we grew up in. It’s too close to NYC, which drives up the price of everything and our budget wouldn’t get us what we want or need there. It could be much worse though and I’m grateful staying here is even an option for our family. New England is my home and I don’t know if I’d be able to really feel at home anywhere else. 

Edited May 17, 2019 by VelociRapture

[Bad Wolf]

That's only 10 states. Nevada, my state, is one.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

That's only 10 states. Nevada, my state, is one.

Yes. I believe the others either have no laws regarding abortion or have laws on the books that would restrict or outright ban it. Those ten states are the only ones that have some sort of law specifically written to protect the right to abortion. 

[BachelorToTheRapture]

20 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

For anyone interested, this article includes information on which states have laws that protect/limit/ban abortion on the books. Its good to know just on the chance that Roe v. Wade ever is overturned. 

Here’s a screenshot of states where abortion would be protected:

My state, Connecticut, thankfully has laws that protect the right to abortion up until the point of viability. It’s one of the biggest reasons why we don’t intend to leave the state - Connecticut has its issues, but husband and I feel safer raising our kids somewhere where their right to choose (or their partner’s right to choose) is protected. 

My hope is that other states would pass laws if it were to happen. I certainly hope it isn't overturned, but I'm very worried it could be. I do believe that my state (Minnesota) would pass a law if that were the case, as would other blue states not on the list.

This stuff has me super worried though. The only thing preventing me from panicking completely about it is that my husband and I are my personal definition of rich. We dont have to worry about money and if we needed to we could fly to somewhere abortion is legal. We have vacation time and the ability to work remotely. He could even come with to support me. It makes me feel guilty too that that's what allows me to sleep at night rather than being filled with fear because most people dont have that. I know that physically and emotionally I am in no place to have a child (hopefully someday) and I am SO happy that I have the ability to choose not to bring a child into the world who I cant care for. I hope that these recent laws are struck down and Americans (and everyone) all keep that right. There are so many people out there who shouldn't be parents and know it, and that should be enough for them not to be parents.