Seewalds 39: Piping in on the IKEA conversation

[samurai_sarah]

Carry on from here:

 

[BernRul]

@luv2laugh My thing is, why don't we encourage boys to take an interest in cooking, fashion, and caring for children? Why not buy our sons Wonder Woman pajamas? I've seen girls dressed in Spiderman and Batman merch but never boys with a WW logo. Why is that? Why is the masculine better than the feminine to the point where we as a society accept women with masculine interests and traits but never a man who wants to embrace the feminine? Why should women "change" (as if all women are naturally inclinded to these things and not the others. Personally, I like children and pregnancy but none of the others you mentioned) but not men? 

Because what you're saying doesn't really match up with society's view. Society loves girls who are "one of the guys" while still devaluing feminity. Why are Arya, Brienne, and Ygritte  seen as so much more popular than strong characters who still work within the confines of womanhood, like Sansa, Margaery, and Catelyn? Again, why the fuck will I get weird looks for dressing my hypothetical son in pink Wonder Women shirts but not my equally hypothetical daughter in a badass Batman tee? 

Hell, we devalue feminity so much that traditionally feminine jobs make less money. It's why I don't get paid shit for a job that requires a lot of education, and even in some cases Master's degrees.

Maybe instead of constantly devaluing feminity, we place a value on both masculine and feminine traits, and accept that like 99% of people are a healthy mix of both. And this is coming from the least feminine chick around. 

[Smee]

Nodding along with many of the responses here. Feminism is about choice. Besides, if you google image search “chef” you’ll get pictures of Jamie Oliver, Gordon Ramsay, Ben Ford, Lenny Russo etc. But in the home, cooking is feminine? F that. I like cooking. I’m not going to apologise for that being one of my interests or for looking for new recipes.

Same with redecorating rooms. I repainted all the bedrooms in my house and no one blinked, but when I ripped out the old kitchen and knocked down a wall and tiled the gap left in the floor, suddenly I’m doing something “manly” and impressive. It’s all part of improving the home and making it look the way I want, just because one requires more physical strength doesn’t mean the other is frivolous.

Personally I don’t care for fashion or makeup and never wear heels, but that doesn’t mean it’s a terrible thing for feminists to be interested in. What’s a much bigger problem is the reactions of people when heterosexual boys are interested in those things. My 7yr old son’s favourite TV show is Barbie Life in the Dreamhouse and he DID wear a bright pink Peppa Pig raincoat until society made him feel like that was something to be embarrassed about. I have found SO much more opposition to my son playing with dolls and wearing purple than I have to my daughters wearing shorts and building train tracks  because apparently, anything traditionally “feminine” is lesser.

To suggest that all women need to find some “real” more masculine/important interests is part of the problem. The problem lies in why those things are considered too frivolous to be appropriate for men.

[luv2laugh]

1 hour ago, BernRul said:

@luv2laugh My thing is, why don't we encourage boys to take an interest in cooking, fashion, and caring for children? Why not buy our sons Wonder Woman pajamas? I've seen girls dressed in Spiderman and Batman merch but never boys with a WW logo. Why is that? Why is the masculine better than the feminine to the point where we as a society accept women with masculine interests and traits but never a man who wants to embrace the feminine? Why should women "change" (as if all women are naturally inclinded to these things and not the others. Personally, I like children and pregnancy but none of the others you mentioned) but not men? 

Because what you're saying doesn't really match up with society's view. Society loves girls who are "one of the guys" while still devaluing feminity. Why are Arya, Brienne, and Ygritte  seen as so much more popular than strong characters who still work within the confines of womanhood, like Sansa, Margaery, and Catelyn? Again, why the fuck will I get weird looks for dressing my hypothetical son in pink Wonder Women shirts but not my equally hypothetical daughter in a badass Batman tee? 

Hell, we devalue feminity so much that traditionally feminine jobs make less money. It's why I don't get paid shit for a job that requires a lot of education, and even in some cases Master's degrees.

Maybe instead of constantly devaluing feminity, we place a value on both masculine and feminine traits, and accept that like 99% of people are a healthy mix of both. And this is coming from the least feminine chick around. 

I’m responding in complete agreement with you. In my post, I mentioned that as women, it’s important to tell our husbands to change a diaper and regularly do tasks that are considered domestic.

However, most women are pressured into doing things that are considered domestic and it ends up becoming internalized. Studies have shown that despite more women going to college, women are still doing the bulk of household chores. Additionally, despite more women receiving MBAs, JDs, MDs, and PhDs, women are still not being as frequently promoted to leadership positions compared to men.

Studies also show that it’s crucial to have more women in leadership and in STEM so until this becomes a “norm”, women will continue to be encouraged in these areas and to pursue leadership positions.

I work in a male dominated industry and my best friend is an associate in a male dominated industry as well. Last week, her male colleagues wrote in her performance review “We should move her to marketing or admin”. My friend felt it was sexist. Her male colleagues will not give her more responsibility on projects and are basically setting up to demote her or “push her out”. Sexism and misogyny is still a huge problem today.

Perhaps what I said came off as harsh hence the FJ notifications but maybe it’s largely due to generational differences regarding feminism. Also, I never said anything against SAHMs. I mentioned Nancy Pelosi being a SAHM of 5. Additionally, I also brought up how women don’t need to be employed to make an impact in their communities and can volunteer or pursue hobbies.

Also, @AliceInFundyland This is the third time you’ve posted in response to something I said trying to paint me out as “mentally ill”. You don’t have to agree with my posts but that’s pretty vitriolic. The first time, you attempted to call me “crazy” because of my long posts in either the Gwen Shamblin or MisForMama thread. The second time was when I chimed in a thread where a poster was talking about FJ being mean and gave my opinion along with a funny cat picture. This is the third time. 

I don’t always agree with people but they have a right to their own views. Have a good day.

Edited April 6, 2019 by luv2laugh

[AliceInFundyland]

42 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

I’m responding in complete agreement with you. In my post, I mentioned that as women, it’s important to tell our husbands to change a diaper and regularly do tasks that are considered domestic.

However, most women are pressured into doing things that are considered domestic and it ends up becoming internalized. Studies have shown that despite more women going to college, women are still doing the bulk of household chores. Additionally, despite more women receiving MBAs, JDs, MDs, and PhDs, women are still not being as frequently promoted to leadership positions compared to men.

Studies also show that it’s crucial to have more women in leadership and in STEM so until this becomes a “norm”, women will continue to be encouraged in these areas and to pursue leadership positions.

I work in a male dominated industry and my best friend is an associate in a male dominated industry as well. Last week, her male colleagues wrote in her performance review “We should move her to marketing or admin”. My friend felt it was sexist. Her male colleagues will not give her more responsibility on projects and are basically setting up to demote her or “push her out”. Sexism and misogyny is still a huge problem today.

Perhaps what I said came off as harsh hence the FJ notifications but maybe it’s largely due to generational differences regarding feminism. Also, I never said anything against SAHMs. I mentioned Nancy Pelosi being a SAHM of 5. Additionally, I also brought up how women don’t need to be employed to make an impact in their communities and can volunteer or pursue hobbies.

Also, @AliceInFundyland This is the third time you’ve posted in response to something I said trying to paint me out as “mentally ill”. You don’t have to agree with my posts but that’s pretty vitriolic. The first time, you attempted to call me “crazy” because of my long posts in either the Gwen Shamblin or MisForMama thread. The second time was when I chimed in a thread where a poster was talking about FJ being mean and gave my opinion along with a funny cat picture. This is the third time. 

I don’t always agree with people but they have a right to their own views. Have a good day.

@luv2laugh

100% I think you have expressed emotional issues in your life and with your relationships that go beyond what posting on FJ can help you deal with.

It isn't vitriol. I'm just blunt. Verbosity doesn't work for me.

I don't attack people here for no reason. I do not think that you will get far with that approach.

[VelociRapture]

44 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

I’m responding in complete agreement with you. In my post, I mentioned that as women, it’s important to tell our husbands to change a diaper and regularly do tasks that are considered domestic.

However, most women are pressured into doing things that are considered domestic and it ends up becoming internalized. Studies have shown that despite more women going to college, women are still doing the bulk of household chores. Additionally, despite more women receiving MBAs, JDs, MDs, and PhDs, women are still not being as frequently promoted to leadership positions compared to men.

Studies also show that it’s crucial to have more women in leadership and in STEM so until this becomes a “norm”, women will continue to be encouraged in these areas and to pursue leadership positions.

I work in a male dominated industry and my best friend is an associate in a male dominated industry as well. Last week, her male colleagues wrote in her performance review “We should move her to marketing or admin”. My friend felt it was sexist. Her male colleagues will not give her more responsibility on projects and are basically setting up to demote her or “push her out”. Sexism and misogyny is still a huge problem today.

Perhaps what I said came off as harsh hence the FJ notifications but maybe it’s largely due to generational differences regarding feminism. Also, I never said anything against SAHMs. I mentioned Nancy Pelosi being a SAHM of 5. Additionally, I also brought up how women don’t need to be employed to make an impact in their communities and can volunteer or pursue hobbies.

Also, @AliceInFundyland This is the third time you’ve posted in response to something I said trying to paint me out as “mentally ill”. You don’t have to agree with my posts but that’s pretty vitriolic. The first time, you attempted to call me “crazy” because of my long posts in either the Gwen Shamblin or MisForMama thread. The second time was when I chimed in a thread where a poster was talking about FJ being mean and gave my opinion along with a funny cat picture. This is the third time. 

I don’t always agree with people but they have a right to their own views. Have a good day.

I’m a few years older than you, if even that much. So is @singsingsing, who was born the same year as me. The pushback you’ve gotten here really has nothing to do with generational differences and everything to do with you making pretty judgmental statements about other women, even if you don’t want to admit it.

I’ll repeat what I’ve said in this thread. Your posts in this discussion were sexist and what I know of your posting history in general strongly suggests you crave attention of some sort, especially your tendency to play the victim anytime someone even mildly calls you out for something. I don’t know if you’re purposely trolling for kicks or if you just have an unfortunate habit of coming across that way, but I am very quickly getting tired of your crap and I’m pretty sure it’s time to just put you on ignore. You should feel honored as that list for me is very short. 

[Beermeet]

There is so much more to being a feminist than reducing ourselves to act one way or another. I'd say the first rule of feminism is to stop acting. Be yourself.  Whoever that is and never shit on a sister who lives her life differently than yourself.  

I'm never sure how I come across here exactly.  Multiple threads, different discussions and how I'm feeling/sharing at the time, who knows. Would it be surprising to anyone to know that I prefer a traditional home? Where husband works and I do mostly tending of the home, cooking and child care. Feminism has given me the opportunity to be able to do both. I have a state license and make decent money. I chose to stay home with babies. Slowly returning to work. TBH? I wish I still could only be home.  That economy tho....  I love being there for my family. Being the matriarch. That doesn't mean that is all that I am.  I will not always be this version of me as I had 2 kids and they will fly the nest at some point.  Who knows what I'll do. It's exciting to think about!  I'm really happy where I am at this time.  Even though I have to work. ?

Anyway, a woman is not defined by marriage, babies or no babies, job or no job, or what job, or what she speaks about. Her choice. Her potential and varying interests are innumerable. A woman can be anything. We're pretty magical, imo. Feminism, to me, means not judging each other or demanding each other to be a certain way. Isn't that what society and men were doing and why a movement was successfully created?  

[backyard sylph]

Perhaps this is being discussed in the political area, but I thought it was funny that Young AOC was assembling IKEA furniture live as we were discussing it here.  

[Beermeet]

34 minutes ago, backyard sylph said:

Perhaps this is being discussed in the political area, but I thought it was funny that Young AOC was assembling IKEA furniture live as we were discussing it here.  

I love her! I put pepper on my popcorn too girl ?

I also, I assembled IKEA furniture with drink in hand. It's the only way to not freak out!  I did manage while pregnant but had the nesting super power going.  

[backyard sylph]

I concur on all points. That is, you'd have to ply me with drinks to get me to assemble furniture at this point, and am definitely all over pepper on popcorn. ?

[Carm_88]

I am eating popcorn right now. No pepper and no furniture, but lots of delicious popcorn.

[Beermeet]

1 minute ago, Carm_88 said:

I am eating popcorn right now. No pepper and no furniture, but lots of delicious popcorn.

I'd forgo the pepper if it meant no furniture! ?? I'm currently getting my pretzel stick on and treating myself to a lemon lime powerade. I love that stuff but so sugary. A treat ?

[nausicaa]

Whew. Just catching up on this thread. 

1. I can assure everyone on the board that I have never "jizzed myself" over Jessa or Jill or any Duggar for that matter. Maaaybe J.T. Phillips on a lonely night...

2. If you're going to post emotive screeds all over Free Jinger with EMPHATIC FORMATTING, black and white thinking that castigates others, details about your personal life, and just generally spilling your unedited feelings all over every discussion, you do open yourself up to some comments about your emotional health. 

3. Why the hell do we still assume women can only be "girly girls" or "tomboys" (with the latter assumed to be preferable)? I like sewing and WWI history. I like fashion, but also like reading about personal finance and global politics.

And why on earth are cooking and sewing (hobbies that actually create something useful) seen as silly but masculine-associated hobbies like fantasy football, or spectator sports in general, are never put under the intellectual microscope?

4. @treehugger You're awesome. Thanks for saving my lazy ass the time it would have taken me to write up a more poorly worded version of your post. 

Edited April 7, 2019 by nausicaa

[AliceInFundyland]

Me too

Really

 

 

[Beermeet]

Well,  thankfully I have popcorn!  My pretzels are no longer cutting it thanks to this thread.  I also have a strange desire to drink and assemble furniture.  Must be the sugar high. Lol!

#feminismandpopcorn ?✋

Edited April 7, 2019 by Beermeet

[VelociRapture]

Now I want popcorn and I don’t have any. Thanks AOC. ?

[formergothardite]

2 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

I also brought up how women don’t need to be employed to make an impact in their communities and can volunteer or pursue hobbies.

Quote

If all we can contribute is discussing other women’s weddings, pregnancies, babies, baking cookies, and our grocery list in life..how can we expect men to take us seriously as equals? 

But what if some those are the person's hobbies? Maybe instead of blaming women if men don't take them seriously you should blame the men and tell them to change.

This has nothing to do with any sort of a generational difference and everything with you dumping the blame on women if they don't live up to some standards men(or you) hold and men look down on them. If men don't respect me because I like making lists or talking about weddings, then that is the fault of the men. It is insulting that you expect women to change to accommodate men. You are appearing to say it is reasonable for men to not take women seriously if they like talking about wedding or babies. 

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by formergothardite

[Iamtheway]

3 hours ago, BernRul said:

@luv2laugh My thing is, why don't we encourage boys to take an interest in cooking, fashion, and caring for children? Why not buy our sons Wonder Woman pajamas? I've seen girls dressed in Spiderman and Batman merch but never boys with a WW logo. Why is that? 

 

2 hours ago, Smee said:

My 7yr old son’s favourite TV show is Barbie Life in the Dreamhouse and he DID wear a bright pink Peppa Pig raincoat until society made him feel like that was something to be embarrassed about. I have found SO much more opposition to my son playing with dolls and wearing purple than I have to my daughters wearing shorts and building train tracks  because apparently, anything traditionally “feminine” is lesser.

I try to show my son female heroes and I think about what movies we see and what books we read. I encourage his love for pink and all things with glitter because I know he already get’s the ”that’s only for girls” but I want to delay the time when he actually cares about it. He’s 5 so I’m guessing I don’t have that long. For now he still loves his pink paw patrol dress (today he wore it with blue pants with firetrucks on them and if that’s not a fashion icon in the making I don’t know what is). 

He will sometimes say he looks like a girl but he doesn’t yet understand that that’s seen as something bad or something he need’s to change. He just is what he is, likes what he likes. I wish he could have that forever. I wish we could all have that forever. 

[CaricatureQualities]

I feel like it would be remiss of us to not have a best cookie recipe competition at this point.

I was just thinking about making oatmeal raisin cookies....but I am going to use golden raisins and soak them in spiced rum first. 

Discuss

Edited April 7, 2019 by CaricatureQualities

[Destiny]

I feel like it would be remiss of us not to not have a best cookie recipe competition at this point.
I was just thinking about making oatmeal raisin cookies....but I am going to use golden raisins and soak them in spiced rum first. 
Discuss

I volunteer to judge. Mail me your cookies!

[CaricatureQualities]

As a person who cooks for a living and has been surrounded by men in that industry for the most part, I can say that if you can actually bake well, everyone in the restaurant will respect the shit out of that (and love you for the tasty samples). There are plenty of (male) chefs out there who can't bake worth a damn and pastry chefs make good dough...)as in money haha), in high end restaurants because pulling off a lot of this stuff is hard and technical and I have heard men talk about cooking and or baking ad nauseum. 

Edited April 7, 2019 by CaricatureQualities

[SorenaJ]

Are oatmeal raisin cookies good? I've thought about making them, but then I watched Big Bang Theory and there was a joke that no one preferred oatmeal raisin cookies. Is that the case IRL as well? Would people prefer chocolate(chip)/rainbow cookies or something like that? 

[Someone Out There]

@SorenaJ I like Oat and Raisin cookies.  Not sure on the comparison, I haven't had rainbow cookies, and for the choc chip ones it would depend on how many choc chips there are in the cookies I guess?  You could also potentially substitute the Raisins for Choc Chips?

[feministxtian]

For great oatmeal raisin cookies, substitute apple sauce for the crisco. They come out sweet and moist and not quite as fattening. I used to make them for my kids all the time and they are required when they come home. 

Speaking of IKEA...this is what happens when you don't read the directions to assemble your IKEA cat 

[Smee]

I don’t even pretend to make healthy cookies. Chocolate chip, with lots of chocolate chips, lots of sugar and lots of butter. So bad for you but so gooood

Also, if we’re sharing cat pics (always! Always share the cat pics!)...