Josh, Anna, the M' kids Part 19: Josh's Thwarted Ambitions

[Carm_88]

Maybe the best term for Josh is sexual opportunist. He had the opportunity to molest his sisters and he did it, he had the opportunity to cheat and he did so. 

Whatever label you put on him, he's a fucked up, and will likely continue to fuck up. 

[Belugaloo]

On 4/1/2019 at 1:44 PM, nokidsmom said:

I wonder if Anna is doing what some people will do on an issue no matter what the evidence to the contrary: hunker down.     Maybe to prove to herself if not other people that it's ok or whatever, but I can't for a minute think that she's not aware of how people view her husband, her marriage and what the hell is she doing still with him.   

Like I said before, people can overlook infidelity and understand why a wife would stay in the face of that however people do not overlook someone molesting his sisters.  They just don't.     

Now that might be where Anna is being naive.    She doesn't get that what he did to his sisters is worse than Ashley Madison, in the public view, not in her fundie bubble.

Sometimes I wonder if, in her circle, continuing to promote such ideas even after what she's been through makes her someone who you can really look up to, someone who has the experience to back their beliefs. 

 

That didn't make sense, let me explain.

I had an allergic reaction to a vaccine in middle school, I recently had to update my tetanus/diptheria and I was really nervous about it. Seeing as I have had a bad reaction to a vaccine, I notice that NO ONE (pro and anti) questions me when I mention my opinions on vaccines. IE "she's had an allergic reaction and still gets vaccinated!" In this case I am a good example of how having a bad reaction isn't a good reason to completely stop vaccinating. 

Similar to the possible "Anna went through x, y, and z and STILL endorses those values. she is an example of how believing the right things doesn't make life perfect, but you can also still go on and be happy, etc etc etc"

 

 

I am not sure if that is making sense. 

[SassyPants]

I doubt Anna has formulated any of her own thoughts on this issue, or probably on any of the more important issues. She likely rotely believes what she has been told over and over. It’s default beliefs and nothing too critically thought through or formulated on her own. Jesus take the wheel, and like everything else in Duggarville easy and superficial.

[JenniferJuniper]

23 hours ago, viii said:

Josh isn't a child molester. Josh sexually assaulted his sisters... when he was also a child. 

Of course he molested children.  The fact that they were his sisters does not make this any less true.  And there was a huge age difference - 10 years, I believe - between Josh and his youngest victim.  It's a stretch to call a 15 year old a "child" in this situation. 

[tabitha2]

He was Legally a minor when he did the molesting. A teenage child in the eyes of the law so to speak.  

[JenniferJuniper]

9 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

He was Legally a minor when he did the molesting. A teenage child in the eyes of the law so to speak.  

And?  When I was a kid a 15 year old neighbor of mine murdered an elderly couple who lived down the street.  In the eyes of the law, he ain't never getting out of prison. 

[tabitha2]

According to The World Health Organization  Definition :

2012-10-10 : A persistent or a predominant preference for sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children. C. The person is at least 16 years old and at least five years older than the child or 

Only one of those criteria definitely applied to 15 year old Josh Duggar. One did not and the other has not been demonstrated either. 

[luv2laugh]

I call Josh a creep. I believe his childhood environment caused him to have life-long issues. JB & Michelle are also to blame.

I think Josh has some sort of sexual fantasy that led him to search for it on OKCupid and pay for it on Ashley Madison. I think he felt Anna wouldn’t partake in whatever his fantasy is.

Edited April 2, 2019 by luv2laugh

[JenniferJuniper]

1 hour ago, tabitha2 said:

According to The World Health Organization  Definition :

2012-10-10 : A persistent or a predominant preference for sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children. C. The person is at least 16 years old and at least five years older than the child or 

Only one of those criteria definitely applied to 15 year old Josh Duggar. One did not and the other has not been demonstrated either. 

What is this the definition of?

The poster above claims Josh did not sexually molest his sisters. 

Yes.  He did. 

[tabitha2]

He did. Never said he did not. But he is not by medical/psychiatric definition a pedophile. People who keep claiming he is one are incorrect.  

[JenniferJuniper]

1 minute ago, tabitha2 said:

He did. Never said he did not. But he is not by medical/psychiatric definition a pedophile. People who keep claiming he is one are incorrect.  

Thanks.  But the record, I never have claimed such a thing.

He did, however,  sexually molest (in a couple of case, his much younger) sisters.  

Anyone claiming he did not, or it doesn't count because it was incestuous or because he was only a teen is completely off-base.

[singsingsing]

I haven't seen anyone claiming that he didn't molest his sisters. There seems to be some debate as to whether "child molester" is a term that should be applied to him now, as an adult, but that's not the same thing as claiming that he never molested children.

[Dandruff]

31 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

I call Josh a creep. I believe his childhood environment caused him to have life-long issues. JB & Michelle are also to blame.

I think Josh has some sort of sexual fantasy that led him to search for it on OKCupid and pay for it on Ashley Madison. I think he felt Anna wouldn’t partake in whatever his fantasy is.

I agree about the life-long issues and him being a creep.  I suspect he caught the early brunt of his parents' Gothard-related child "training" and restrictions, and later observed that females in their world are expected to support men's needs and desires while tending to be blamed for their failures.  He may have decided pretty quickly that the fundie life was a miserable crock, but he was stuck.  What he did to those girls was inexcusable; however, I occasionally wonder how he might have turned out with a better education and healthy friendships/emotional outlets.

I believe his transformation from punished sinner to pious older brother and role model on TV was pretty quick, and I can't imagine he didn't recognize the hypocrisy of it.  I think his marriage to Anna was strongly encouraged by his parents (because of his "problem") and by TLC (for ratings).  Dating a non-fundie wasn't an option.  So he got married, vowed to accept all the children the Lord would provide, and was expected to never divorce...which is fine if you're satisfied with each other and are OK living the ultra-fundie life.  Looks like he wasn't, so he played his part and meanwhile made the creep decision to join Ashley Madison in secret, hoping - again - that he wouldn't get caught.

I suspect his views on fundamentalism aren't dramatically different from our own.  I doubt he's happy but, given what has already transpired, I think he's probably trying to do his best for Anna and the kids.  Time will tell if/when he makes another bad move.

[RosyDaisy]

One of Josh's victims was 5 years old. That makes him a child molester. He was a teenager who knew what he was doing was wrong. There are plenty of fundie males brought up in the same way who never molested anyone.

 

ETA:. We don't know that he hasn't stopped molesting.

[Beermeet]

12 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

One of Josh's victims was 5 years old. That makes him a child molester. He was a teenager who knew what he was doing was wrong. There are plenty of fundie males brought up in the same way who never molested anyone.

Exactly.  The truth is we may never become aware of any other incidents.  We will definitely never know what goes on in that head of his.  Coping a feel off a similarly aged person ( related or not. And, he did both) IS different than what he did to a 5 year old.  He is, imo, a sexual deviant.  Whether he can truly be labeled a pedophile is not as clear. The Ashley Madison thing makes it seem like just sexual deviance but we can't know for sure.  He is untrustworthy in my eyes due to his past behavior.  I sure as hell wouldn't risk finding out. 

ETA: I'm personally ok with saying he is a pedo. Idgaf about semantics.  

Edited April 2, 2019 by Beermeet

[Beermeet]

I was just thinking if I were Anna.  Man, she must be at or over saturation point in the kool aid to let him near their children.  His visitations ( cause, we'd be divoreced for sure in my world) would be supervised.  Chaperoned if you use their terms. No way. Not risking it. He did bad things to his baby sister!  His own kids would not seem off limits to me. No excuses, no exceptions.  I don't buy any other explanation due to his age. We were all 15 at one point, right?  You molest anyone family or not?  Yeah. Though so.  F that. 

[JenniferJuniper]

11 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

We were all 15 at one point, right?  You molest anyone family or not?  Yeah. Though so.  F that. 

There is something very wrong with a boy that age who repeatedly assaults his little sisters.  Full stop.  We can't blame everything on fundamentalism.  

Now, if Josh's parents had done the right thing by all their kids and gotten everyone professional help, not only would we not be talking about his now, even if we found out about it somehow, I think everyone would feel quite a bit better about him.  But they didn't, and while he probably is not a pedophile, he has serious problems and, as he put it himself, ended up the world's biggest hypocrite.  Family Fuckin' Values, indeed.

I'm not sure when someone stops being a molester.  It's like my 15 year old neighbor who murdered our elderly neighbors in cold blood 35 years ago.  When does he stop being a murderer?  Last year?  Next Tuesday?

I understand having mixed feelings about Anna, but I think we can all agree she was sold a nasty bill of goods and will pay the price for it for the rest of her life.

[luv2laugh]

According to the DSM IV, Josh is not a pedophile. According to the law, Josh was not charged for the crime of child molestation because he was a minor.

As we know, there are some aspects of the legal & medical realm as “black and white” and others as “gray”. Josh wasn’t charged with child molestation however, his actions were those of a disturbed teenager and he never received appropriate therapeutic treatment. 

Also, there are some that say he was close to turning 16 years old. In my opinion (which doesn’t matter), despite what the DSM IV and law say, the actions of Josh are what I personally see as a “gray area” and in addition to his paid sexual affairs, I believe he’s a creep. 

Although Josh does not medically nor legally meet the diagnosis and definition, people will make their own opinions of what is wrong with him.

I don’t know for sure what he is (only a psychiatrist or psychologist who evaluated him would know) but I know he is a creep and a victim of the religious fundamentalism that JB & Michelle raised him in along with child exploitation, in my opinion, from the TV show. 

Edit: I met Josh and Anna in person prior to Josh-gate. Josh was very charsmatic and “friendly” (despite their beliefs). Anna was quiet and when I tried talking to her twice she was “short” and “cold”. I thought she was just busy. However, I felt that Josh was “oogling” me a little. I brushed it off as paranoia but after Joshgate, I felt it was more than myself just simply overanalyzing it...

Edited April 3, 2019 by luv2laugh

[tabitha2]

We have no proof Adult Josh Duggar has molested anyone . Let’s not start saying or implying otherwise please.  He cheated and that makes slimy enough.   

[Beermeet]

A credited psychology text can say a definition.  I won't blindly follow that.  It is not the absolute last word on the subject.  I personally feel it's the wrong approach.  YMMV. All we know is what we know. It's bad enough. I will not defend him in any way.  You can absolutely liken this to @JenniferJuniper response and example.  We can go further,  who's going to let a priest watch their kids?  Going to ask a neighbor who murdered their elderly neighbors to watch your kids?  "Oh, but that was years ago and he seems fine now". FOH. Gross. @SapphireSlytherin gets skewered ( rightly) but let's defend Joshly. Because psychiatry book. Nah bro. Real life. He's trash. Forever tarnished, a walking red flag. 

[luv2laugh]

39 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

I'm not sure when someone stops being a molester.  It's like my 15 year old neighbor who murdered our elderly neighbors in cold blood 35 years ago.  When does he stop being a murderer?  Last year?  Next Tuesday?

I think this is a great analogy. I am not saying anyone here is wrong. Everyone will make their own opinion of Josh. I agree with Tabitha on the law but in my gut, I agree with you and @Beermeet. I think Josh is sexually disturbed and because he has not had appropriate medical treatment, I believe he has not been rehabilitated. 

It’s extraordinarily difficult for sexual offenders to become rehabilitated (not saying Josh is one, legally).

The issue is that Josh was never charged with a crime nor has he received and/or revealed a diagnosis as the cause of his actions. Fundies would say Josh’s problem is sin but we all know it has to be deeper than that.

Edit:

Another point: Josh will not get better unless he chose to leave the fundamentalist cult of JB & Michelle that in part, likely triggered his actions. Not only does he face shame within his cult, he faces shame amongst the public. The shame he receives will cause him to develop other issues if he is not seeing a board certified psycholgist and/or psychiatrist. He does NOT look healthy. Unfortunately for Josh, he is unlikely to leave the cult because of the public humiliation. He will probably be dependent on JB’s financial support for life.

Edited April 3, 2019 by luv2laugh

[tabitha2]

I have known man many fine priests I would trust to watch my child. But let’s paint the Sins of some perverted individuals onto thousands of Good , humane, kind  men in every part of the world . That always is just right? 

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by tabitha2

[Beermeet]

Just now, luv2laugh said:

I think this is a great analogy. I am not saying anyone here is wrong. Everyone will make their own opinion of Josh. I agree with Tabitha on the law but on my gut, I agree with you and @Beermeet. I think Josh is sexually disturbed and because he has not had appropriate medical treatment, I believe he has not been rehabilitated. 

It’s extraordinarily difficult for sexual offenders to become rehabilitated.

The issue is that Josh was never charged with a crime. 

I see where you are coming from. The reason he wasn't charged was some Arkansas good ol' boy stuff. I mean, the cop they chose to report to was arrested and jailed for kiddie porn!  I don't wish to fight with you at all.  I go with my gut and the little info we have is enough to tell me Josh is trash. He's still being coddled and I seriously worry for his kids. Incest does not seem to be a deterrent.  It's awful all around. There are no winners here.  I really don't agree with books and backwoods laws on this.  I will not sugar coat child molestation.   If it was only Ashley Madison and that porn star? Whatever.  Hypocrisy and that's Anna's problem. His baby sister(s)?  Nope. It's all I need to know.  

[Coconut Flan]

 

It's time to dial back speculation.  FJ does not allow speculation about the victims of molestation.  I haven't read the whole thread, but what I saw was edging into dangerous territory.  

[Beermeet]

3 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

I have known man many fine priests I would trust to watch my child. But let’s paint the Sins of some perverted individuals onto thousands of Good , humane, kind  men in every part of the world . That always is just right? 

 

I do too. It's been very hard for me to reconcile the fact that they knew. They knew. Even if they personally did nothing of the sort. Staying silent is just as bad. They knew. 

What's your point with all this Josh defending? Bored?