OK/White Power/9/circle game/Taryn's 666 sign

[thoughtful]

Several recent threads have inspired me to research the controversy over this:

?

As one of FJ's older posters, I usually assume I am behind the times and need to be educated about anything that is trending. But it looks like this issue has even some savvy folks unsure.

It's a really old gesture, and, as long as I can remember, it has meant "OK." In fact, right here on FJ, we mocked the infamous Taryn for thinking such an innocent gesture was evil, and a poster even made an avatar based on it:

It is also the number nine in ASL, and the hand position for the Circle Game (this was a new one on me - to me, The Circle Game is a Joni Mitchell song! I guess I didn't see what preceded kids punching each other's upper arms in the 1980s and 90s, I just told them to stop it -- kids punching each other on the upper arm is also a really old gesture! ?).

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=The Circle Game

So, that hand position has been around, and has many uses. If I've missed any older ones, let me know.

Trump makes the gesture a lot. Around 2015-2016, a few assholes like Milo Yiannopoulous and Richard Spencer made the gesture in photos. Whether they meant it as OK or White Power wasn't always clear, from everything I've read.

But one thing is clear -- people at 4chan decided to use it to troll and "trigger the libs."

Quote

“We must flood twitter and other social media websites with spam, claiming that the OK hand signal is a symbol of white supremacy. Make fake accounts with basic white girl names and type shit like: OMG that’s so truuuuu…”

The intent: “Leftists have dug so deep down into their lunacy. We must force [them] to dig more, until the rest of society ain’t going anywhere near that shit.”

So now I am better educated about the current issue with this hand shape. But I am also making sure that I look at context. When the NZ shooter used it (upside down, but I think that was due to his restraints), I think it's likely he has bought into it as a real gesture meaning "white power." When some snide asshole uses it, I figure he's trolling, so, if someone is offended, he can reply with "you libs are so sensitive -- I was just saying OK!" If my 92-year-old mother who has never been on the Internet uses it, she means OK.

More info here:

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/09/18/ok-sign-white-power-symbol-or-just-right-wing-troll

https://www.adl.org/blog/how-the-ok-symbol-became-a-popular-trolling-gesture

tl;dr - it may mean "OK" or "white power" (or 9!), and it may be a shmuck's way to troll you into assuming it means "white power." Check context. Automatically assuming the worst and getting enraged is playing right into the alt-right's hands.

Edited March 18, 2019 by thoughtful
removing extra emoji

[Destiny]

It’s also how to say you are okay while scuba diving. Thumbs up means you want to go up and nods are too hard to see underwater.

[thoughtful]

1 minute ago, Destiny said:

It’s also how to say you are okay while scuba diving. Thumbs up means you want to go up and nods are too hard to see underwater.

I wonder if that's how it came to mean "OK" even for non-scuba folks. Off to do more research . . .

[Destiny]

Just now, thoughtful said:

I wonder if that's how it came to mean "OK" even for non-scuba folks. Off to do more research . . .

I have no commentary on that issue. I have been certified for close to 20 years, and that's what it was when I started, and still is as of the last time I went out a year or two ago. I believe that's an international symbol for divers, actually, because I've been diving in other countries and the signals are all the same. 

[AmazonGrace]

Well i feel that when certifiably racist ghouls are using it it doesn't really matter whether they used it to mean "white power" or "white power- nyah nyah gotcha, stupid liberals", it still means they're for white supremacy.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

Some III%ers (the militia groups) also use this hand sign, claiming that it stands for III%. Some idiot Republicans play dumb when they're caught posing for pictures with these terrorist supporters. (If someone brandishes "a loaded AR-15 assault rifle at officers while he hid behind concrete barriers on [a freeway] overpass", because he didn't recognize federal authority, he's a terrorist in my book.) There's a discussion of the use of this hand sign in the specific case in the article I linked to.

ETA--The picture with the idiot Republican.

Spoiler

Another link to another article:

Spoiler

https://www.boisestatepublicradio.org/post/idaho-lieutenant-governor-faces-backlash-photo-supporting-jailed-militiaman#stream/0

Can you tell this crap makes me feel sick?

Edited March 18, 2019 by WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?
ETA and a quick description about what "IIIers" are

[hoipolloi]

2 hours ago, Destiny said:

I have no commentary on that issue. I have been certified for close to 20 years, and that's what it was when I started, and still is as of the last time I went out a year or two ago. I believe that's an international symbol for divers, actually, because I've been diving in other countries and the signals are all the same. 

I took my one and only set of scuba lessons over 25 years ago and that hand symbol meant "OK" then.

You were REQUIRED to use it underwater -- no substitutes like nodding or thumbs up allowed -- so that your diving partners knew that you were doing all right while submerged.

 

[thoughtful]

1 hour ago, AmazonGrace said:

Well i feel that when certifiably racist ghouls are using it it doesn't really matter whether they used it to mean "white power" or "white power- nyah nyah gotcha, stupid liberals", it still means they're for white supremacy.

Of course -- if the person flashing it is a known racist, there's not much distinction between those two uses of the gesture.

IRL and online, I've seen examples of people thinking it was the circle game when used by a known white supremacist, and others just wondering why people were upset about an OK sign. On the other end of it, I've seen people jump to the conclusion that it was meant as a white power sign when it might not have been, and get very unpleasant with someone who didn't deserve it.

The latter especially bothered me, since I could just imagine some alt-right shithead getting his jollies at "the libs" being at one another's throats.

So I went looking for more information, and thought I'd share it.

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by thoughtful
edited for riffle

[nvmbr02]

18 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

I took my one and only set of scuba lessons over 25 years ago and that hand symbol meant "OK" then.

You were REQUIRED to use it underwater -- no substitutes like nodding or thumbs up allowed -- so that your diving partners knew that you were doing all right while submerged.

 

My kids were just scuba certified about 26 months ago (and advanced open water about 18 months ago) and it is still the same. 

[Dreadcrumbs]

It just wasn't enough for them to ruin Pepe, they had to take an innocuous hand gesture, too.

That being said, this is one of those things where context is extremely important.

[milkteeth]

Subscribe to Pewdiepie (aka what the NZ shooter said before beginning the massacre) is another thing that sounds innocuous unless you're an irony poisoned member of the alt-right.

On the surface he just seems like some dumb kid who runs a youtube about video games that has 89 million subscribers. Until you look a little beneath the surface and you find that he uses racist and anti-semitic words and imagery in his videos.....but totally as a joke, and you guys are just dumb SJWs if you actually think he's really racist. In one video he had a pair of men unfurl a banner that said 'Death to all Jews' while laughing and dancing, but again Pewdiepie claimed was done ironically as a joke. In another video he wears a brown, Nazi style uniform while nodding along to archival footage of one of Adolph Hitler's speeches. When he was called out on those videos once again he plays dumb and says gosh I was totally just joking you guys why are you so easily offended? He has also recommended his fans subscribe to another youtube channel that had videos explaining why the Holocaust was a hoax and other alt right topics, but when called out on it he claimed that he never saw those videos and it was all just a big misunderstanding. 

The fascists understand what he is doing though, and that's why they've embraced him as one of their own, even if he has always maintained this ironic facade. Most of his 89 million subscribers are kids and young people who aren't alt-right, but by watching his videos it normalizes fascism for them.  If you check out who Pewdiepie follows on twitter you will see all of the alt-right/alt-light's favorite characters including Lauren Southern, Stefan Molyneux, Brittany Pettibone, Paul Joseph Watson, Steven Crowder and Jordan Peterson to name a few. 

[AmazonGrace]

It's all fun and games until it isn't

[apple1]

As @thoughtful said in the OP, I am older than the average FJer and I also assume I am behind the times.

In some ways, after reading this entire thread, I am now more confused.

As also mentioned above, Trump does this all the time while speaking. Overall, his gestures are like his verbal speech (IMO of course) - clumsy and graceless. So now I am wondering - is it just one of his clumsy gestures with no more meaning, or has he been trolling us, or is it a real signal to certain groups? Color me confused about this also.

[mamallama]

I'm not one to give Trump the benefit of the doubt but in his case I don't think it's anything more than an unconcious had gesture.  All the other assholes on the other hand...

[thoughtful]

My first thought about Trump's use of it is just that he gesticulates a lot, and is an asshole with zero self-awareness or sense of irony.

Of course, Trump doesn't need hand gestures for us to know that he is some combination of a shitty racist and a guy who will use anybody and anything to feed his ego and his pocket.

[AmazonGrace]

IDK I think Stephen Miller and Don Jr seem to be pretty up to date with the latest 4chan racist memes so while left to his own devices Trump might not know a thing about the fresher gesture fash-ion, I think it's quite possible he's been told about these trolly usages. 

[thoughtful]

7 hours ago, Dreadcrumbs said:

It just wasn't enough for them to ruin Pepe, they had to take an innocuous hand gesture, too.

I was thinking about this aspect of it this morning. For years, people who want to remain bigoted in what they say have bitched about "political correctness."

I wish the world didn't need to keep changing the terms we use because nasty motherfuckers turn something into an insult. But language shifts and changes all the time.

In a recent thread, I was told that I may have to give up on "literally" meaning literally before my life is over, and someone pointed out that "very" and "really" have already taken that route (as a word nerd, I was mostly embarrassed that I hadn't thought about that before). Ah, well, I'll adjust.

Can I give up a word or gesture that used to be innocuous and has taken on a vicious meaning, so as not to hurt the vulnerable? You betcha!

But I can also take a second to make sure that someone a bit behind the times is not purposely being insulting. Hey, it has happened to me. Thirty or so years ago, I used the word "Oriental" when referring to people. I was told that was considered insulting (which was news to me), and was asked to use Asian. Ta-da! Incident over, I changed my language without getting huffy, and the people who told me didn't attack me or skulk around watching me for signs of anti-Asian bias.

12 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

IDK I think Stephen Miller and Don Jr seem to be pretty up to date with the latest 4chan racist memes so while left to his own devices Trump might not know a thing about the fresher gesture fash-ion, I think it's quite possible he's been told about these trolly usages. 

Could be. I tend to think of Trump as a parfait of repeating layers of narcissism and stupidity, with a soupcon of bigotry on top, so I guess I default to thinking he is too stupid and self-centered to absorb anything he is told. I may be missing ways in which he is being crafty (or thinks he is).

 

[Dreadcrumbs]

I've been thinking about how reactionaries are likely appropriating harmless things so they can turn around and say you're just being sensitive and have people agree with them. It's very insidious, but that is the nature of dog-whistles.

[Alisamer]

1 hour ago, mamallama said:

I'm not one to give Trump the benefit of the doubt but in his case I don't think it's anything more than an unconcious had gesture.  All the other assholes on the other hand...

I suspect it's likely just a gesture he did at some point (maybe somebody told him it makes his hands look bigger?) and he never gave it a thought. He probably HAS been told by somebody that a certain part of his base likes it when he uses that gesture, so now he makes extra sure to do it now and again. He doesn't care who they are if they vote for him.

5 minutes ago, thoughtful said:

But I can also take a second to make sure that someone a bit behind the times is not purposely being insulting. Hey, it has happened to me. Thirty or so years ago, I used the word "Oriental" when referring to people. I was told that was considered insulting (which was news to me), and was asked to use Asian. Ta-da! Incident over, I changed my language without getting huffy, and the people who told me didn't attack me or skulk around watching me for signs of anti-Asian bias.

About 20 years ago, I was in a meeting where an older gentleman used the term "Oriental", and I (Politely, I think) pointed out that I was taught "Oriental is for carpets and things, Asian is for people." And he flipped the heck out and INSISTED I had it backward. Sure, rich old dude. I'm sure you're much more up on what is considered currently correct than only-a-few-years-out-of-college me.

Things change, constantly, and it gets more and more frequent as time goes on. My goal is to remain open to learning, but also not search for offense where there might just be ignorance. Unless they double down on it and are rude, then screw them.

[mamallama]

31 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

IDK I think Stephen Miller and Don Jr seem to be pretty up to date with the latest 4chan racist memes so while left to his own devices Trump might not know a thing about the fresher gesture fash-ion, I think it's quite possible he's been told about these trolly usages. 

I don't know if he knows about it.  I just think he's too dumb to talk and troll at the same time.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

15 minutes ago, mamallama said:

I don't know if he knows about it.  I just think he's too dumb to talk and troll at the same time.

I'd agree with you if talking and trolling weren't exactly the same thing for him.

He can't talk without trolling and he can't troll without being very explicit, not too subtle the guy.

ETA Regarding the OK sign. We don't need to see the terrorist do that sign to know he is scum. We don't need to see Stephen Miller and Roger Stone do that sign to know that they are scum. We already know they are scum! They have done so much more to prove it! 

A symbol doesn't turn people into scum, a symbol has just as much power as we give it. Let's not give this symbol the power the scum wants to give it. Usually there are much more significant telltales of racism and bigotry in these people's behaviour, there's no need to demonize an otherwise innocent sign to distinguish between the deplorables and the normal humans. Jmo of course.

Edited March 18, 2019 by laPapessaGiovanna
Replies got merged

[smittykins]

37 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I suspect it's likely just a gesture he did at some point (maybe somebody told him it makes his hands look bigger?) and he never gave it a thought. He probably HAS been told by somebody that a certain part of his base likes it when he uses that gesture, so now he makes extra sure to do it now and again. He doesn't care who they are if they vote for him.

About 20 years ago, I was in a meeting where an older gentleman used the term "Oriental", and I (Politely, I think) pointed out that I was taught "Oriental is for carpets and things, Asian is for people." And he flipped the heck out and INSISTED I had it backward. Sure, rich old dude. I'm sure you're much more up on what is considered currently correct than only-a-few-years-out-of-college me.

Things change, constantly, and it gets more and more frequent as time goes on. My goal is to remain open to learning, but also not search for offense where there might just be ignorance. Unless they double down on it and are rude, then screw them.

A few years ago, my mom(who was born in 1945)used the word “Oriental” in reference to one of the Yankees’ pitchers, and I just said “We don’t say that anymore.”

[mamallama]

I just came across a meme saying it's the ASL for asshole.  Don't know if it's true but if not great way to troll the assholes.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

9 hours ago, mamallama said:

I just came across a meme saying it's the ASL for asshole.  Don't know if it's true but if not great way to troll the assholes.

I don't know about ASL (it's already the number 9 and almost the letter F; that seems like it might cause misunderstandings), but I did find it on a graphic of Rude Hand Gestures from Around the World.

Spoiler

The graphic cites  sources for it's info, but I don't have time to type them up right now. I don't know how legible they are in this screenshot. 

Spoiler

White power seeker, III%er, or trolling dog whistler; they are all assholes.

[Dreadcrumbs]

I totally forgot about how certain hand gestures are rude in other parts of the world. 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Dreadcrumbs