College Admissions Scandal: Felicity Huffman Arrested!

[Hisey]

17 minutes ago, TheOneAndOnly said:

I asked a friend of mine who got a second degree recently if, when he was appyling to colleges, someone had changed his numbers would he have noticed. His answer was something like, 'WTF kind of question is that? OF COURSE I would have noticed!' Granted he's really detail oriented and has worked in and around academia for 20+ years, but I can't help thinking that as a student you'd have to be pretty damn disconnected to not notice something.

Yeah, at first I tried to give the kids the benefit of the doubt. But now it is seeming pretty unlikely. Although--as I said-- if you read the complaint, many parents were trying hard to hide it from their kids. Whether they were successful, I don't know.

[Hisey]

The complaint is pretty interesting reading, if anyone is interested. There are clips of actual transcripts between the parents and Singer. It's fascinating how they just chat away about doing this illegal thing. Most planned to lie to their kids, lie to the schools, cheat. . . and they don't seem the least bit hesitant or unsure. 

If you have a lot of money you can buy most things. Admission to USC is something you can't usually buy. I guess they thought they'd found a way.

The odd thing is, Lori Loughlin's family is worth $100 million. Who cares where they go to school!  Jeez, leave the spot open for someone who actually needs it and cares.

My own daughter paid a lot of  attention to her scores and grades, like most kids do. She absolutely would have noticed if we asked her to travel to another state to take the SAT, or sit in a boat holding an oar while we took pictures, or told her to pretend to have a disability so she could get extra time. She knows she doesn't have a disability! At 17, kids have their own moral compass and many would have simply refused.

[Whipple]

On 3/17/2019 at 6:55 AM, DangerNoodle said:

Some students were cheating by getting extra time on the test. This is something that is given to students with particular disorders. The students knew they didn't have those conditions but were still give an extra time. I would say they should be held accountable for that. 

Almost anyone can be diagnosed with a processing disorder. Upper middle class folks have been gaming the system by buying a diagnosis for decades. The College Board is on this now and they are highly suspicious of 11th hour diagnoses. They also turn down 80 percent of requests whether kids have 504 Plans or not. Requests for double time instead of 1-1/2 can be seen as a flag. So what surprises me is how it got through. Who did they bribe to accept the disability? The kid had to have known about the disability part which does not bother me as much as the fact her answers were changed. My solution is to have all students take all the time they need for the test.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Whipple

[Alisamer]

55 minutes ago, Petronella said:

Eh, I'm not fond of pre-defining kids like that. Kids can have very different skills/aspirations from their parents.

The problem here isn't that actors had high educational hopes for their children. The problem is that they spoiled them rotten (Olivia Jade's general take on life is appalling), and that they ignored the kids' actual strengths and interests, and that they forced their fantasy of success onto them.

Oh I agree totally. I just think by the time the kid is applying for college, you probably have some idea whether they're more likely to become a scientist or a youtube sensation, you know? I mean, my parents were very happy my sister became an accountant. They knew me well enough, however, to know that was NOT something that would work for me, at all. It would not have gone well if they'd forced me into accounting, any more than forcing these kids into schools they didn't want to go to or were unprepared for. 

I mean, would ANYONE look at these kids' social media and think "Oh, hey, that Olivia Jade... she's going to end up at an elite college, graduate as valedictorian, and invent some amazing new technology one day!" I'd be more likely to think "Hey, I bet she'll come out with an interesting eyeshadow palette for Sephora before long" or "wow, how long until she's on her own reality show?" or "Is she buds with the Kardashians? That would probably up her brand recognition."

The parents failed at preparing these kids for college and life as an adult, and then tried to buy their way out of the hole they dug themselves. I'm sure some of the kids were clueless. I'm sure some just were like "whatever. Just keep my allowance coming." There were probably a few who "really really want to go to Harvard!" without realizing how unlikely that was on their own merits. Olivia Jade however is unusual, in that she had already built herself a ladder of sorts to get out of the hole, and they set fire to it by being all shady. I mean, she sucks, but she seems to know what she's good at, and college is NOT IT. And she made that clear to her parents, but there she is taking up space in classes she has no intention of attending. The whole situation is infuriating.

[Petronella]

1 minute ago, Alisamer said:

Oh I agree totally. I just think by the time the kid is applying for college, you probably have some idea whether they're more likely to become a scientist or a youtube sensation, you know? I mean, my parents were very happy my sister became an accountant. They knew me well enough, however, to know that was NOT something that would work for me, at all. It would not have gone well if they'd forced me into accounting, any more than forcing these kids into schools they didn't want to go to or were unprepared for. 

I mean, would ANYONE look at these kids' social media and think "Oh, hey, that Olivia Jade... she's going to end up at an elite college, graduate as valedictorian, and invent some amazing new technology one day!" I'd be more likely to think "Hey, I bet she'll come out with an interesting eyeshadow palette for Sephora before long" or "wow, how long until she's on her own reality show?" or "Is she buds with the Kardashians? That would probably up her brand recognition."

The parents failed at preparing these kids for college and life as an adult, and then tried to buy their way out of the hole they dug themselves. I'm sure some of the kids were clueless. I'm sure some just were like "whatever. Just keep my allowance coming." There were probably a few who "really really want to go to Harvard!" without realizing how unlikely that was on their own merits. Olivia Jade however is unusual, in that she had already built herself a ladder of sorts to get out of the hole, and they set fire to it by being all shady. I mean, she sucks, but she seems to know what she's good at, and college is NOT IT. And she made that clear to her parents, but there she is taking up space in classes she has no intention of attending. The whole situation is infuriating.

I agree with all of that! But what you said was that if parents are actors the kids aren't going to be academic. I disagree with that. (And I think you do too! But it's nevertheless what you wrote ? )

[Dreadcrumbs]

41 minutes ago, Whipple said:

Almost anyone can be diagnosed with a processing disorder. Upper middle class folks have been gaming the system by buying a diagnosis for decades. The College Board is on this now and they are highly suspicious of 11th hour diagnoses. They also turn down 80 percent of requests whether kids have 504 Plans or not. Requests for double time instead of 1-1/2 can be seen as a flag. So what surprises me is how it got through. Who did they bribe to accept the disability? The kid had to have known about the disability part which does not bother me as much as the fact her answers were changed. My solution is to have all students take all the time they need for the test.

https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2019-03-15/a-victim-in-the-college-admissions-scandal-students-with-disabilities

Going off of this article, the kids were told what to do when they went to see the psychologist. They were in on it before even receiving the extra time based on bogus diagnoses.

Quote

"I also need to tell [your daughter] when she gets tested, to be as, to be stupid, not to be as smart as she is," Singer said to a parent last summer in a phone conversation recorded by the FBI. "The goal is to be slow, to be not as bright, all that, so we show discrepancies."

I can only imagine what was being said about the people who get extra time for real disabilities. I'm sure some of these parents thought their non-disabled children were much more worthy.

I agree with just giving everyone the amount of time they need, really.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Dreadcrumbs
additions

[PennySycamore]

I have three grandchildren who might need more time to take their SATs and ACTs.  One is legally blind, one is Deaf, and the third is on the autism spectrum.  Fortunately, they have years before any of them will be faced with the tests.  I hope the people in charge of the tests have all this mess figured out by then.

[Alisamer]

41 minutes ago, Petronella said:

I agree with all of that! But what you said was that if parents are actors the kids aren't going to be academic. I disagree with that. (And I think you do too! But it's nevertheless what you wrote ? )

It is what I wrote, but I was thinking more of the "not academically inclined" part than the "actors" part. Nurture versus nature, I guess? Sure actors can be super intelligent, and their kids can be too. I just think it's unlikely that parents who are willing to bribe their kids way into college were focusing all that much on academics throughout their lives. No matter how brilliant a kid is, if they're brought up in a family that doesn't seem to value learning, they're at a disadvantage. I'm sure there are plenty of actors whose kids get into college on their own merits, go on to be doctors or lawyers or agents or scientists or whatever they want. I suspect, however, that their parents probably prioritized education from the beginning a little bit more than someone who is willing to cheat their kid into college might have.

Does that make sense? I'm not saying actors are dumb so their kids are dumb, I'm saying if you value college only for the status to the point you're willing to break the law to get your kid in, you're probably not focusing on education all that much from the beginning. Maybe the kid is driven to learn and does so on their own, sure, but then you wouldn't be forcing or tricking them into college, would you?

Their kids might see going to an elite school as the same as wearing a designer dress or driving an exotic car, if they've been given the same level of importance throughout their lives. Something your parents buy to make you look good, not something you have to work for or earn yourself.

Which I think is why the Olivia Jade thing bothers me a little - she did have something she was working for and earning, such as it was. Still based all on status and money, sure, but it was hers. Given a couple more years she might have been a C-list celeb in her own right, without having to bring up her parents' names. Right now this has hurt her brand, but upped her name recognition significantly, so it may end up being a benefit to her in the long run. It's hard to tell.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I hate that the SATs and ACTs are timed. I got unlimited time on 99% of tests in high school. So why are we all of the sudden timing these tests? I wasn’t able to finish the ACT and it bothered me. I did fine in high school and college because most tests weren’t timed. It just doesn’t make sense to me. 

[Petronella]

24 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I'm not saying actors are dumb so their kids are dumb, I'm saying if you value college only for the status to the point you're willing to break the law to get your kid in, you're probably not focusing on education all that much from the beginning. Maybe the kid is driven to learn and does so on their own, sure, but then you wouldn't be forcing or tricking them into college, would you?

...

Which I think is why the Olivia Jade thing bothers me a little - she did have something she was working for and earning, such as it was. Still based all on status and money, sure, but it was hers. Given a couple more years she might have been a C-list celeb in her own right, without having to bring up her parents' names. Right now this has hurt her brand, but upped her name recognition significantly, so it may end up being a benefit to her in the long run. It's hard to tell.

Ah, I get it. That’s true. Thanks for the discussion.

I must admit I’m less kind than you towards Olivia Jade. I know that technically there’s work involved in her “influencing” but it’s so darned vapid and toxic that I just can’t respect it.

[Ozlsn]

3 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I hate that the SATs and ACTs are timed. I got unlimited time on 99% of tests in high school. So why are we all of the sudden timing these tests? I wasn’t able to finish the ACT and it bothered me. I did fine in high school and college because most tests weren’t timed. It just doesn’t make sense to me. 

How are the tests untimed? Genuine question here as every test I've done has been timed, or at least there is a time period in which it is completed. Whether that's 30 minutes or 3 hours depends on the test, but if it was something untimed it was usually an assignnent.

3 hours ago, Petronella said:

Ah, I get it. That’s true. Thanks for the discussion.

I must admit I’m less kind than you towards Olivia Jade. I know that technically there’s work involved in her “influencing” but it’s so darned vapid and toxic that I just can’t respect it.

Me too. I don't get it at all, it feels like "look at me, I'm rich and people give me stuff."

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, Ozlsn said:

How are the tests untimed? Genuine question here as every test I've done has been timed, or at least there is a time period in which it is completed. Whether that's 30 minutes or 3 hours depends on the test, but if it was something untimed it was usually an assignnent.

Me too. I don't get it at all, it feels like "look at me, I'm rich and people give me stuff."

I should say the teachers always gave enough time for everyone to finish. I knew this because I was always one of the last to finish all through school. 

[ViolaSebastian]

Then there's always that one kid who gets done crazy fast and leaves you wondering how in the hell they managed it. I've always thought that kid either bombed it/gave up or REALLY knew their stuff. Still, that feeling when someone turns it in and you're still on the first page...

[Walking Cat Bed]

The thing about this that gets me is just how many good schools aren't necessarily "prestigious" -- and academically motivated kids would do well there without having to cheat their way in. It's a shame that their parents didn't focus on guiding them on that path.

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Then there's always that one kid who gets done crazy fast and leaves you wondering how in the hell they managed it. I've always thought that kid either bombed it/gave up or REALLY knew their stuff. Still, that feeling when someone turns it in and you're still on the first page...

That’s my best friend! We took a college class together one time. She was always the first to finish a test and I was always the last. And somehow we always managed to get the exact same score!

[Dandruff]

12 hours ago, Petronella said:

The problem here isn't that actors had high educational hopes for their children. The problem is that they spoiled them rotten (Olivia Jade's general take on life is appalling), and that they ignored the kids' actual strengths and interests, and that they forced their fantasy of success onto them.

I'm not sure they had high educational hopes, maybe just educational hopes, but since they had $$$s they went for top schools.  Perhaps Olivia's parents wanted her to have an alternative career path in case her current one went sour.  Unfortunately, it did go sour, as did the educational hopes, thanks to the scandal.  The upbringing seems to be a whole other issue, though they're not unrelated.

I'm curious why so much media emphasis has been on the actors and their kids.  Not excusing them at all, but weren't most of those implicated in the scandal non-Hollywood types?  Is this an example of one's fame working against them?

[Terrie]

7 hours ago, Dandruff said:

I'm curious why so much media emphasis has been on the actors and their kids.  Not excusing them at all, but weren't most of those implicated in the scandal non-Hollywood types?  Is this an example of one's fame working against them?

A big factor is, I think, that the general response to the rest of the people involved would have been "Who?" The celebrity culture in the media means we feel like we "know" the actors, so it gives a focus to the story.

[JermajestyDuggar]

8 hours ago, Dandruff said:

I'm not sure they had high educational hopes, maybe just educational hopes, but since they had $$$s they went for top schools.  Perhaps Olivia's parents wanted her to have an alternative career path in case her current one went sour.  Unfortunately, it did go sour, as did the educational hopes, thanks to the scandal.  The upbringing seems to be a whole other issue, though they're not unrelated.

I'm curious why so much media emphasis has been on the actors and their kids.  Not excusing them at all, but weren't most of those implicated in the scandal non-Hollywood types?  Is this an example of one's fame working against them?

I said it earlier in the thread. We are a celebrity obsessed culture. I find it incredibly annoying that we are always talking about celebrities but I partake in it by clicking on these types of stories all the time. So I am not better I suppose. I will say that the celebrity obsession is nothing new. Especially Hollywood celebrities. That’s been going on for decades. 

[nausicaa]

20 hours ago, Whipple said:

Almost anyone can be diagnosed with a processing disorder. Upper middle class folks have been gaming the system by buying a diagnosis for decades. The College Board is on this now and they are highly suspicious of 11th hour diagnoses. They also turn down 80 percent of requests whether kids have 504 Plans or not. Requests for double time instead of 1-1/2 can be seen as a flag. 

Is this recent? When I tutored for the SAT, I had several kids who got 1.5x time on the tests or other concessions such as typing the essay rather than writing it. To be fair, every kid who got this had an IEP and seemed to genuinely need it. I'm not surprised though that there were parents trying to game the system via this. 

19 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I hate that the SATs and ACTs are timed. I got unlimited time on 99% of tests in high school. So why are we all of the sudden timing these tests? I wasn’t able to finish the ACT and it bothered me. I did fine in high school and college because most tests weren’t timed. It just doesn’t make sense to me. 

Isn't everything timed to some extent? Like a student can't take three days to finish a test. The College Board does have to pay proctors to administer the tests and I get that they don't want to be there all day. There definitely would be some kid with anxiety or OCD issues who kept them there until 8pm.

Also, since the SAT is a way to gauge academic readiness for college, I suppose the strategy of allocating your time and energy effectively is another college skill. 

(And don't feel bothered about the ACT; no one is really supposed to finish the ACT. 99% of students are supposed to leave the last five questions of the math section with just "C" answers for instance.)

Edited March 19, 2019 by nausicaa

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

Also, since the SAT is a way to gauge academic readiness for college, I suppose the strategy of allocating your time and energy effectively is another college skill

That would have been an extremely poor gauge for me since I graduated with honors from high school, undergrad, and grad school but couldn’t even finish a section on the ACTs. 

Edited March 19, 2019 by JermajestyDuggar

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

21 hours ago, Whipple said:

My solution is to have all students take all the time they need for the test. 

My boyfriend teaches high school and can assure you that some students would literally take multiple days for a test that should be 75 minutes. You've got to draw the line somewhere.

[nausicaa]

47 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

That would have been an extremely poor gauge for me since I graduated with honors from high school, undergrad, and grad school but couldn’t even finish a section on the ACTs. 

I get that--the SATs and ACTs aren't the end all, be all of college readiness. But again, the ACTs aren't supposed to be "completed" by 99% of students in the sense of answering every question and there is a formula for which questions to skip. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

I get e-mails sometimes from Lifeway Christian bookstore about sales and promotions. One thing caught my eye in the one I got today.

A few sale items:

This one seems to have a bigger discount than the others:

Time to quickly unload anything with Lori Loughlin, I guess?

Edited March 19, 2019 by WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?
fruitless attempt to resize pic

[SilverBeach]

20 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I hate that the SATs and ACTs are timed. I got unlimited time on 99% of tests in high school. So why are we all of the sudden timing these tests? I wasn’t able to finish the ACT and it bothered me. I did fine in high school and college because most tests weren’t timed. It just doesn’t make sense to me. 

Not all of a sudden, these tests were timed fifty years ago when I was taking them. Had to show ID too.

[Alisamer]

15 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Then there's always that one kid who gets done crazy fast and leaves you wondering how in the hell they managed it. I've always thought that kid either bombed it/gave up or REALLY knew their stuff. Still, that feeling when someone turns it in and you're still on the first page...

I was that person in most classes, and one of the last people in anything math related. Things leveled out a bit in high school, but in elementary we had to do yearly testing that to me was incredibly easy. It was pretty boring to be done and just sitting there for ages waiting for everyone else. But then they had to wait for me in math once we hit high school!

I do think there have to be some time limits. There comes a point where no matter how long you sit there you're not going to be able to do any better. But the timing adds an extra level of stress to the SAT and ACT - they're like "You get this amount of time, then pencils down, no more. Done." and you're thinking "Oh God my whole future depends on this test what if I run out of time I won't get into college and maybe I'll end up homeless and my parents will kill me if I don't do well oh God..."

I didn't take the ACT, but I took the SAT three times. I did really well on verbal, really bad on math.

 

Wait, a Polar Exploration Bible? What? I am dying of curiosity. Pretty sure people in Biblical times had no idea polar bears existed. Except maybe Noah, I suppose... (JK)

Edited March 19, 2019 by Alisamer