The Botkinettes Take Umbrage!

[formergothardite]

8 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Going to say "NEVER" except, possibly, for daddy Greg who in the distant past may have had a day job or two (duck biologist!) as someone else's employee.

Chances are one of them will have to get a real job at some point. The Botkin Christian advice brand is pretty dead. It doesn't seem like the gun holster business is going to bring in enough money to support all of them, and they don't seem to have any other ideas on how to rebrand themselves. Working for others is going to be rough on any of them. 

In interviews Lucas talks about how fast his business grew and how he had to hire people. Did he hire outsiders or is it just the family doing everything? I looked at his website but he doesn't talk a lot about the company there. 

[MamaJunebug]

One of the elder Botkin Boyz is accomplished at some facet of the motion picture industry. Cannot remember what. He’ll go on a months-long assignment in Hollywood’s and bring back mid-five-figure fees, and folks in the know suspect he’s kept the larger family afloat this way. Not David, I don’t think; who’s the other one?

Then there’s Benjamin with the cello-virtuoso wife. He’s done musical scores for niche-patriarchal-Christian films but I’m not sure if he ever got out of the circle of potential employers known to be adherents of the entity formerly known as Visuon Forum.

 

(Following)

Edited February 22, 2019 by MamaJunebug

[hoipolloi]

12 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

Then there’s Benjamin with the cello-virtuoso wife. He’s done musical scores for niche-patriarchal-Christian films but I’m not sure if he ever got out of the circle of potential employers known to be adherents of the entity formerly known as Visuon Forum.

Would it be Isaac, the oldest Botkin Boy? Don't' know if I'd every heard what he does for a living.

I'd thought that Benjamin was the only B-boy with any connection to the film industry. I agree that the Xtian-patriarse niche market must be a small one. Maybe he could branch out to doing soundtracks for Hallmark or Lifetime. 

[VVV]

1 hour ago, MamaJunebug said:

One of the elder Botkin Boyz is accomplished at some facet of the motion picture industry. Cannot remember what. He’ll go on a months-long assignment in Hollywood’s and bring back mid-five-figure fees, and folks in the know suspect he’s kept the larger family afloat this way. Not David, I don’t think; who’s the other one?

Then there’s Benjamin with the cello-virtuoso wife. He’s done musical scores for niche-patriarchal-Christian films but I’m not sure if he ever got out of the circle of potential employers known to be adherents of the entity formerly known as Visuon Forum.

 

(Following)

Benjamin's wife is no doubt an accomplished cellist but not a virtuoso. She made the second of the three Texas All-State orchestras two years in a row, which is a solidly impressive feat for a high school student, but not virtuosic even by high school standards. There were sixteen cellists ahead of her in the top orchestra, though I will say that she got excellent seats in the second orchestra (second of sixteen and fourth of sixteen in her two years). Furthermore unless she went to conservatory, which there is no evidence of, all of her cellist peers who did go to conservatory have long since passed her up. 

[thoughtful]

There's an Isaac Botkin with an IMDb listing, but it's pretty sparse:

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm4605049/?ref_=fn_nm_nm_16

 

[refugee]

On 2/20/2019 at 1:27 PM, Lisafer said:

OH MY GOD, apparently AS and E based their accusations on reddit comments! I'm linking it here. Some reddit users are commenting on T-Rex Arms (someone didn't like their holsters, and someone else points out that Lucas used a homophobic slur on Instagram and brings up "Botkin Syndrome." Then another user, 99% probability of being a Botkin, jumps in to defend the family. Good times. https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/848n7k/negative_review_of_trex_arms_aiwb_holster/

 

Wait. The guy defending them (“holsterguy”) was the one who first brought up the idea of incest on the reddit thread? (Unless one of the deleted comments brought it up first.) And holsterguy does sound a lot like a Botkin, maybe even Lucas himself. 

Two thoughts:

1) ironic if “incest” came up on the thread because a *Botkin* brought it up.

2) holsterguy does not appear to have a good capacity for critical thinking or reading comprehension. He apparently doesn’t understand the concept of enmeshment or emotional incest, compared to molestation. He also casually used the same perjorative (is that how you spell it?) term as Lucas apparently did, in a way that sounded like it was his common reference to homosexuality, which was offensive when Lucas used it, and would be offensive if he used it. Which he did, either cluelessly or smug and rubbing it in. Which sounds like Lucas.

Spoiler

holsterguy’s initial comment:

First, I have to say that, while the form of Christianity they promote is different, it isn't cult-like. They promote following the Bible, obeying the Bible, having fathers shepherd their families as scripture requires... I don't know that you can say that following the Bible is cult-like. 

Second, the woman who runs the Botkin-syndrome blog is an idiot who cannot do research. She is not a psychologist but has made up a psychological syndrome and named it after them because she disagrees with their teaching. She says things about them without actually quoting them accurately, and applies other people's theology to them. 

Lucas shouldn't have made the comment about the [redacted]. It was a bad thing to do. But please don't believe everything you read about them on the internet -- I know them. They're good people.

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by refugee
Added comment from reddit in spoiler.

[Lisafer]

16 minutes ago, refugee said:

Wait. The guy defending them (“holsterguy”) was the one who first brought up the idea of incest on the reddit thread? (Unless one of the deleted comments brought it up first.) And holsterguy does sound a lot like a Botkin, maybe even Lucas himself. 

Two thoughts:

1) ironic if “incest” came up on the thread because a *Botkin* brought it up.

2) holsterguy does not appear to have a good capacity for critical thinking or reading comprehension. He apparently doesn’t understand the concept of enmeshment or emotional incest, compared to molestation. He also casually used the same perjorative (is that how you spell it?) term as Lucas apparently did, in a way that sounded like it was his common reference to homosexuality, which was offensive when Lucas used it, and would be offensive if he used it. Which he did, either cluelessly or smug and rubbing it in. Which sounds like Lucas.

  Hide contents

holsterguy’s initial comment:

First, I have to say that, while the form of Christianity they promote is different, it isn't cult-like. They promote following the Bible, obeying the Bible, having fathers shepherd their families as scripture requires... I don't know that you can say that following the Bible is cult-like. 

Second, the woman who runs the Botkin-syndrome blog is an idiot who cannot do research. She is not a psychologist but has made up a psychological syndrome and named it after them because she disagrees with their teaching. She says things about them without actually quoting them accurately, and applies other people's theology to them. 

Lucas shouldn't have made the comment about the [redacted]. It was a bad thing to do. But please don't believe everything you read about them on the internet -- I know them. They're good people.

 

A previous comment by another user had linked the Botkin Syndrome website, but yes, holsterguy appears to have been the first one to use the word "incest" in the Reddit thread. And yes, he appears to lack reading comprehension and general social skills. Like I said, 99% chance that holsterguy is Lucas. And holsterguy's careless commenting about the slur shows no understanding that using such words is actually wrong. It comes off as if he thinks saying the word in public was a mistake, rather than understanding that people object to the homophobia behind the word. 

There's some memes floating out there about one of Lucas' homophobic comments, but I can't repost them here without redacting. However, I am happy to see that reddit gun owners have not forgotten or forgiven his asshole behavior.

[AnnaSofia]

9 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Would it be Isaac, the oldest Botkin Boy? Don't' know if I'd every heard what he does for a living.

I'd thought that Benjamin was the only B-boy with any connection to the film industry. I agree that the Xtian-patriarse niche market must be a small one. Maybe he could branch out to doing soundtracks for Hallmark or Lifetime. 

These days, Isaac is a "designer" at T.Rex Arms: https://www.instagram.com/isaactrexarms

But back in the Vision Forum/active Western Conservatory era, Isaac was indeed the "filmmaker" of the family.

Have we really forgotten this "groundbreaking" work?

Outside Hollywood: The Young Christian's Guide to Vocational Filmmaking

Or the time he navigated Egypt...

I don't really remember anything about him getting much work outside of VF circles, but it's possible. I've always wondered how the hell the Botkins paid the bills in the quiet years after Dougie's fall, before T.Rex Arms took off.

 

A Star Wars fan project of Isaac and Ben made the Nerdist website a year or so ago:

https://archive.nerdist.com/star-wars-time-lapse-death-star-construction/

I'm not greatly impressed by it, but it does seem as though he has enough skill to speed up Lucas's YouTube vids (((allegedly)))

As for the other sons, I seem to remember one of the gun forums claiming that Lucas originally started making Kydex holsters because his brother had a job selling Kydex wholesale. I've never been able to verify it, though. If true, I would assume that brother was David. IIRC, David was in on T.Rex Arms from the beginning, while Isaac joined the ranks a bit later.

 

[AnnaSofia]

That screeching sound you hear is Isaac's frantic backpedal...

"That was simply AGES ago...."

[teachergirl]

They also taught something at a public high school near them...Gasp, I thought the home educated, more Godly than anyone, not subjugating women Botkin family would never step foot into a den of Marxism known as high school.

 

[formergothardite]

4 hours ago, AnnaSofia said:

That screeching sound you hear is Isaac's frantic backpedal...

"Oh, that was ages ago! Please don't bring up our creepy beliefs, we are trying so hard to pretend we are normal."

[FilleMondaine]

Whew! I am so so so glad that this topic has gotten over to FJ (every now and again, I peek over at NLQ, and was so antsy to discuss with you all!!!)

First up, though, it tickles me to no end that the 2nd-amendment crowd, usually associated with anti-LGBT right-wingers, are drawing a line about homophobia. This is a HUGE cultural shift, and I am delighted.

[formergothardite]

I have been looking at various gun forums that end up discussing t-rex arms and it seems that every time the company is brought up someone chimes in to say how unpleasant Lucas is. I wouldn't be the surprised if the people who come to say they know him in real life and he is nice are actually Botkins. It appears Lucas is a real asshole and even the gun community can't stand his macho behavior. 

[Palimpsest]

5 hours ago, AnnaSofia said:

"That was simply AGES ago...."

"Dropping knowledge bombs..." 

I feel some compassion for the younger generation, arrogant as they may be, because the glory days are over with the demise of VF and the Christian Film Festival.  And they were raised to think they were the cream of the cream.  Apparently reality hasn't quite struck home yet.

2 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I wouldn't be the surprised if the people who come to say they know him in real life and he is nice are actually Botkins. It appears Lucas is a real asshole and even the gun community can't stand his macho behavior. 

Botkins or Botkin adjacents.  There are a few cling-ons to the Botkin ideas apparently.

So the brilliant composer for films isn't finding much work in the real world, and is messing around with the genius graphic designer making Death Star videos.  David may have found a sales job, and Lucas is making holsters and playing at being militia. 

VF interns are no longer falling at AS and E's feet pleading to court them, and they are both over 30 flushing away invaluable ova every month.  The youngest boy, who must be in his 20s by now, is doing we know not what.

I can't imagine why at least one of them hasn't looked Daddy Geoff in the eye yet and openly questioned his failed vision for their collective futures.  So much for the 200 year plan!  But they still seem completely enmeshed. 

They are now stuck in the middle of rural Tennessee, annoying and shunning their neighbors, and pretending that life is all peachy when it patently isn't. 

I took a look back at @NextDoor's posts as they seemed to be local and know what they were talking about.  By the looks of it the Botkins have purchased at least 2 tracts of land comprising many acres and have formed a little compound with the Vernier and Courtier families.  And possibly David Noor and a few other hangers-on like the Tuckers. 

Geoff is an elder at the new family integrated church on Botkin land and preaching regularly.  He's actually younger than Steve Maxwell, I think he's only 64, so he could still be "working" unless his heath is compromised.  But perhaps he no longer has an audience for his self-proclaimed expertise on every subject under the sun.  No more trips to Russia with the Western Conservatory of Bull Crap.

And I rather love the fact that the church's Vision is still "coming soon."  https://www.ckctn.com/our-vision/

[Lisafer]

6 hours ago, AnnaSofia said:

That screeching sound you hear is Isaac's frantic backpedal...

"That was simply AGES ago...."

Did he just use howgunpeopletalk as a hashtag? No. That is not #howgunpeopletalk. That is #howassholestalk...

[refugee]

"Dropping knowledge bombs"... How old was Isaac when he made that comment? Sounds like middle school pretentiousness. (Apologies to the more self-aware middle schoolers out there.)

Steeled myself and paged through the church's website. The contact form is also "not found"--there's a phone number to call, meaning you have to talk to someone in person, I guess. The sermon topics are revealing, like Tucker's apologia for church discipline and Botkin's sermon on what our children need to know about their purpose in life. Botkin seems quite obsessed with people knowing their place in the world and their purpose in life. What a pity that the place/purpose he teaches lead to blind alleys and dead ends.

Augh, that Egypt project! That was the beginning of the end for me. I was struggling, raising daughters, and seeing that their future was bleak if we kept following our VF-blinded leaders. The wife of one of the leaders came to me with the AS&E's CD about the adventure of being a woman (I forget the title). I took it eagerly. Here was the missing piece! I listened... I deflated... I understood clearly for the first time how women were being cheated of abundant life and painted into corners and nailed into narrow coffins. It took a few years to un-mesh ourselves from the brainwashing, but that was the beginning.

Just for chuckles, here's what AS&E had to say about the Egypt project. I stripped out the photos (and the added bolding is mine), but you can see them at the link to the webpage.

Spoiler

Several months ago, Isaac (with Dad’s blessing and encouragement) conceived and developed a vision for a six-episode series about Egypt that would take viewers from the top of the mountains surrounding the Valley of the Kings into the tombs under the pyramids. His goal was to take a team with cameras to explore the darkest and most secret parts of Egypt’s history and illuminate them with the light of Scripture.

But Isaac wasn’t about to have all the fun without us. He brought us on board at the beginning to help make his vision a reality. Though we didn’t get to be on the trip this time, this was our part of the adventure: We got to help man Mission Control and the snazzy project website while he and his team were on the ground in Egypt.

(Image: nadia-anna-navigating-history1: Anna Sofia and the not-yet-Nadia-Botkin editing B-roll images)

No, we didn’t get to have the boots-on-the-ground experience of actually being there and seeing and touching Egypt. But we were enjoying plenty of action on the home-front with our family; doing things we had never done before and had no idea how to do. For example, we had to learn Photoshop and basic HTML, and had to write briefings for the team on subjects like Islamic architecture and ancient Egyptian medicine.

(Image: nawelle-elizabeth-botkin-navigating-history: Elizabeth and Nawelle hashing out website details)

All of us had to work around the clock, marketing, managing the live broadcasts, writing articles and designing headers. And then, when he got home, the real work began – writing content for the 220-page companion book, on everything from biblical chronology to French mysticism to Shariah law to pagan death rituals to evolutionary history-revision to pyramid-building-theories (in which we discovered that aliens didn’t do it).

(Image: anna-sofia-botkin-museum: Anna Sofia does hands-on research on Egyptian heiroglyphs)

We didn’t do this because we believed we had a biblical duty to submit to Isaac, or to be his junior helpmeets. We also didn’t do it because we particularly (initially) cared about proving that aliens didn’t build the pyramids. We did this because we particularly cared about Isaac. Isaac was about to take a big step, a bold risk, a fearless stand, and we didn’t want to miss that for the world! If Isaac was going to stand inside a mosque and call Muhammed a false prophet, and denounce Statism in front of the giant pillars at Karnak, we, for one, wanted to be on his home team. It was our way of saying to him, “We think what you’re doing is important – we think it’s important enough to put our money where our mouths are.” And we did it because our time of being with Isaac, and available to help him, won’t last forever.

(Image: Saying Goodbye: Sending the Navigating History team off to Egypt with prayer.)

It was an experience we wouldn’t have traded for anything. We discovered a whole new world of ideas and broadened our intellectual horizons. We learned that sisterly duties don’t have to be limited to domestic things, far removed from what the boys are doing. We discovered how much fun it is to be part of a man’s world, even if it means taking the plunge into finding world politics as fascinating as they do.

(Image: elizabeth-and-isaac-brainstorming: Multi-tasking: Elizabeth compares notes with Isaac on Islam’s view of women over dinner prep.)

Most importantly, though, we became much closer to Isaac; and we helped him accomplish his dream, making big strides as a dominion man and disciplemaker.

(And we ended up having enough time left over to still be able to write our upcoming book about relationships with boys. But more news on that soon. Stay tuned!)

https://botkinsisters.com/page/5

Gah. I want to throw up. No wonder Isaac comes off as a total [insert whatever expletive you desire here]. Supporting his vision was everyone else's purpose in life, at that point in time.

My response, if I had been there, would have been a "sinful" (according to Papa B.) but plaintive, "Are we having fun yet?"

Edited February 23, 2019 by refugee
clarification

[refugee]

p.s. Who are the four men in the Egypt video? Isaac, obviously. The other three?

(I don't know the male Botkins all that well by sight, and at first glance one of them looks like a guy I knew who was not a Botkin but heavily into VF.)

Edited February 23, 2019 by refugee
because one and two don't make four

[Palimpsest]

6 hours ago, teachergirl said:

They also taught something at a public high school near them...Gasp,

Wait?  What?  Link?  This I have to see for myself.  Thanks. 

 

19 minutes ago, refugee said:

p.s. Who are the four men in the Egypt video? Isaac, obviously. The other three?

I find Botkin males hard to tell apart, but one of the perps in the Egypt video is now BIL, David Noor.  He was their self-styled Egypt expert.  He wears glasses and looks a lot like Nadia.

[hoipolloi]

8 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Wait?  What?  Link?

Ask and ye shall receive!

Probably a career day event or something like that. 

[EowynW]

4 hours ago, FilleMondaine said:

Whew! I am so so so glad that this topic has gotten over to FJ (every now and again, I peek over at NLQ, and was so antsy to discuss with you all!!!)

First up, though, it tickles me to no end that the 2nd-amendment crowd, usually associated with anti-LGBT right-wingers, are drawing a line about homophobia. This is a HUGE cultural shift, and I am delighted.

I'm a gun owner & have my CHL and many gun owners are nothing like what people would expect, lol. Many are good people &  I know quite a few liberal and LGBT CHL carriers in my groups.   

Edited February 23, 2019 by EowynW

[AmazonGrace]

Quote

We also didn’t do it because we particularly (initially) cared about proving that aliens didn’t build the pyramids.

This needed proving? OK.

All those empty seats look like career day was a huge success.

[Lisafer]

@refugee that quote from the Botkin sisters really shook me for a moment. Isaac stood in a mosque and called Muhammed a false prophet? How utterly, unspeakably disrespectful. And yet, fifteen years ago, I would have thought he was being an ambassador of Christ. My reaction NOW and my reaction THEN just collided in my head like two freight trains.

[Howl]

@Lisafer, I came to post on that exact same thing, because Lucifer on a Landline, that's obnoxious and so profoundly disrespectful in the ugliest possible way.  Islam, by the way, considers Jesus a prophet.  Not a major prophet, but a prophet just the same.  
Also, Wiki:

Quote

People of the Book = The Quran uses the term in reference to Jews, Christians and Sabians in a variety of contexts, from religious polemics to passages emphasizing the community of faith between those who possess monotheistic scriptures. The term was later extended to other religious communities that fell under Muslim rule, including polytheistic Indians. Historically, these communities were subject to the dhimma contract in an Islamic state.  

It could also have gotten them thrown in jail and I'm sad that it didn't. 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Howl

[AnnaSofia]

3 hours ago, refugee said:

p.s. Who are the four men in the Egypt video? Isaac, obviously. The other three?

(I don't know the male Botkins all that well by sight, and at first glance one of them looks like a guy I knew who was not a Botkin but heavily into VF.)

Left to right, I *think* that's Chris Harper, part of the middle Tennessee contingent, Isaac Botkin, David Noor (Nadia Noor Botkin's brother, as @Palimpsest mentioned), and Steven Bowman, a former VF intern (he also made a bunch of vids with JT Phillips back in the day) known for a creepy ode to his then-fiance, Lacie Verret, Why I desire Lacie

[refugee]

5 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Ask and ye shall receive!

Probably a career day event or something like that. 

Dyslexia can be a beautiful thing. I read “isaactrexarms” (and still do, every time I look at it) as “ Isaac at rectal exams”.

That is all.