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The Botkinettes Take Umbrage!


Columbia

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I don't know much about the Botkins, but the dad seems like Future!Jeremy Vuolo. 

Oh damn what if there's a time paradox happening right now and Geoff Botkin is actually Future!Jeremy Vuolo and John Schrader is Future!Derick Dillard? 

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What is it with these people and "sturdy" women? :pb_rollseyes:

Tonight's Botkin Google stalking wrap up:

According to the GuideStar page for Western Conservatory:

Quote

This organization has not appeared on the IRS Business Master File in a number of months. It may have merged with another organization or ceased operations.

https://www.guidestar.org/profile/20-4872646

Registered to the same address (David Botkin as agent):

DOMINION HOLDINGS LLP

https://tnbear.tn.gov/Ecommerce/FilingDetail.aspx?CN=184214195248072147115095201131088252016176150015

And, of course, T.Rex Arms (David Noor as agent):

https://tnbear.tn.gov/ECommerce/FilingDetail.aspx?CN=019139112013043221118172044080142019170233213051

It looks like part of the property (pre-Botkin days) may have been some sort of residential camp for troubled youth?

Ironically called "Duck River" :pb_lol:

https://www.troubledteenhelpfinder.com/therapeutic-programs/tennessee/three-springs-duck-river

From the Internet Archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20050319092007/http://www.threesprings.com/duckriver/

And as long as I'm at it, it looks like the "Beyond Off Grid" project Geoff was involved with has been rebranded "Return to the Old Paths" https://returntotheoldpaths.com/experts/geoffrey-botkin/ (site doesn't seem super active)

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Duck River!  That's gold.

 

Hmm, the thing in Budapest is sponsored by something called Mule Learning (who offer training for something called MuleSoft).  Mule Learning is in turn a product of a company called Life Transformation Learning, LLC which I can't find anything about, created by a 'Experienced Trainer, Solution Architect, Consultant' named Timothy Hanline.  Does anyone know who he is or how he came to be sponsoring a 'light lunch' at a Botkin event?

 

Oh and while the page doesn't link to Western Conservatory it does say "The Western Conservatory of the Arts and Sciences is a US-based study and resource center which sponsors conferences and publishes materials on cultural and family issues."

Since when did the Botkins sponsor anything?  As for the rest I guess its 'technically true' like most things the Botkin family put on their resumes.

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2 minutes ago, AnnaSofia said:

I'm not certain if this is the same person (or a legit ad by said person), but if so, yikes...

http://www.eliyah.com/fellowship/profile.php?usr_id=5808

Wait...Is “Fellowship Finder” a Christian matchmaking site for parents to find partners for their children?? Or just a general “record your prayers here” kind of thing? Because the title sounds like matchmaking...

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9 minutes ago, Petronella said:

Wait...Is “Fellowship Finder” a Christian matchmaking site for parents to find partners for their children?? Or just a general “record your prayers here” kind of thing? Because the title sounds like matchmaking...

It's definitely matchmaking, but it looks like it's actually for Messianic Jews?

Edited to add:

Most of his LinkedIn seems normal enough https://www.linkedin.com/in/timothy-hanline-4432509

He is in Charlotte, NC, which is why the Fellowship Finder listing jumped out at me (Huntersville is very nearby), but hopefully it's not the same guy.

Edited by AnnaSofia
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That machmaking ad is SO weird - nothing about the age of the kids, or their interests, what they might like, just "I'm a Christian, are you?  Do you want to marry my children?"

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1 hour ago, Lurky said:

That machmaking ad is SO weird - nothing about the age of the kids, or their interests, what they might like, just "I'm a Christian, are you?  Do you want to marry my children?"

Yeah, that’s why I was confused! How does someone looking for a partner (for their kids?) choose between one bland option and all the other bland options?

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What do our ladies look like, now?  There is so much to tell from a picture...

I was justbarely too old for their influence--thank goodness. My absolutist and abusive mother would have lurrrved their ideas, and I probably would have actually completed suicide had there been more constriction and more authoritarian-ness in my already troubled and abusive home.

Still, these women are victims along with abusers, and I find myself really caring about them and wondering how they are. No snark (ok, maybe a little snark), and I was happy to see the Botkins pop up again on FJ.

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On 2/24/2019 at 3:33 PM, hoipolloi said:

According to their mother, the Botkin Boyz are employed as follows (at least, as of 1-2 years ago):

Interesting that none of them became duck biologists!

If they walk like ducks and quack like ducks, then we know that they're Botkins.   Their logo could be a duck that's armed and presumed dangerous.

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16 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

What could be more appealing than the dulcet tones of a cultured woman’s voice

Oh, I dunno... Liberation from the Patriarchy? 

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15 hours ago, CyborgKin said:

Duck River!  That's gold.

 

Hmm, the thing in Budapest is sponsored by something called Mule Learning (who offer training for something called MuleSoft).  Mule Learning is in turn a product of a company called Life Transformation Learning, LLC which I can't find anything about, created by a 'Experienced Trainer, Solution Architect, Consultant' named Timothy Hanline.  Does anyone know who he is or how he came to be sponsoring a 'light lunch' at a Botkin event?

 

Oh and while the page doesn't link to Western Conservatory it does say "The Western Conservatory of the Arts and Sciences is a US-based study and resource center which sponsors conferences and publishes materials on cultural and family issues."

Since when did the Botkins sponsor anything?  As for the rest I guess its 'technically true' like most things the Botkin family put on their resumes.

Mulesoft is a Salesforce app I have used in the past. No more!

22 hours ago, AnnaSofia said:

Has this come up in previous Botkin threads?

https://newdirectionfamilyconference.com/

A Botkin-led "family conference" that supposed to happen a few months ago in Budapest, but has been postponed due to "an unexpected health setback".

 

 

Love the women and kid at 1:28 that really seem to be a lesbian couple with the narration.

18 hours ago, AnnaSofia said:

It looks like Nadia Noor Botkin's sister, Nawelle, is working for State Rep Clay Doggett:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/nawellenoor

Though apparently no one can be bothered to spell her name correctly:

http://www.capitol.tn.gov/house/members/h70.html

1929526184_Screenshot_2019-03-02Representatives-TNGeneralAssembly.thumb.png.81edb95ce61f1fddc5c11a54dab16850.png

http://www.capitol.tn.gov/house/staff/

753253333_Screenshot_2019-03-03HouseStaff-TNGeneralAssembly.thumb.png.f53a54b9917cb20a034dd8cfca408e7b.png

Urgh. My family founded Giles County, TN. How it hath fallen.

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I know this pic is like a decade old by now, and I think it's been on FJ before, but I ran across it again last night, and the levels of WTF are so deafening I just have to re-post it...

dn_engaged_vd_img_10561.jpg.0d5897df02836df2d6f4f9fdc3fde00c.jpg

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On 2/28/2019 at 5:53 PM, Lurky said:

@Columbia Every time I see the title of this post, it makes me smile - you worded it so perfectly, thank you!

I wish I'd come up with the title. I don't know who did.

@AnnaSofia How on earth did you find that conference?? There's been no mention of it on the Western Conservatory page, and the Botkins don't send out any update emails anymore. They didn't even send out the regular family picture like they used to at Christmas. How did they expect anyone to find this and attend without any advertisement? And how did they expect to pull this thing off for free? Who's paying for their flights over there? Who's paying for the logistics of the conference?

And another thing. When you click on either of the Botkinettes' pictures, a caption pulls up for both of them. For as much as A-S and E have repeated in their speeches and books that they aren't the same person their family sure likes to present them as such.

Interestingly, the pictures they use on the conference website used to be the same ones they used on the "About" section of the Western Conservatory website. That section has completely changed. There used to be a big selection of thumbnail pictures with information about each of the family members. Now they only have this little blurb.

 

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Western Conservatory of the Arts and Sciences was conceived to serve as a study and resource center for the examination of neglected cultural questions of the 21st century. We organize private and public conferences that advance the free exchange of ideas and further deepen conversation on unique theological questions being faced by the developed world. We are not a church, a foundation, a school or educational charity, but as an independent American business entity we produce educational resources on the humanities which can sustain the important cultural work of families, churches, humanitarian organizations, public and private schools and a wide range of not-for-profit organizations worldwide.

 

So first, whoever it was who emailed them asking about tuition rates and room and board you finally got your answer. They are not a school. I think it's so interesting that all names and faces associated with the site are gone. Was it all the people linking Lucas and T-Rex Arms back to Western Conservatory? Are family members starting to pull away from it? They don't carry Audri and Ben's courtship webinar anymore, and I don't think I've ever seen them drop a product. Maybe all her Twitter posts about racism don't sit well with a family that refers to native African tribes as "savages."

 

On 3/2/2019 at 11:18 AM, hoipolloi said:

Same here.

Also trying to imagine how happily or easily any of the adult brothers would take in their mother and/or sisters, supporting & housing them in the event Geoff dies. As I understand their cult's beliefs, women should not be without headships, right?

Having "aunties" at their beck and call to do baby-sitting, "research," or whatever is one thing. Having your sister(s) take up permanent residence in your home, depending on YOU for everything would seem to be quite another thing.

 

I don't think they ever dedicated any time to seriously considering this. In one of Geoff's bloviations about the family (back in the golden days of VF) he talks about how he was raising his daughters to marry young, not to sit around the house. I do think they all seriously through that it wasn't possible that the "girls" would still be single.

There seems to be a ministry opportunity here that they're missing. There must be plenty of other SAHDs who are getting past their marriageable years and probably going to live at home forever. They could at least make a little money off of a webinar or two. "The Blessing of Unmarried Daughters, and How They Are the Secret Weapon of the Church." "Contentment: How to Focus on God, Not Your Marriage State." "How to Find a Godly Widow and Love Step-Children."

As far as what would happen if Geoff was to die tomorrow, I don't know. I've seen Western Conservatory's tax paperwork, and though I'm not completely certain how to read it, I think it looks like they were rolling in dough for a few years during the VF years. I'm sure Geoff is as shrewd as he is creepy and squirreled away a good portion of that money. Perhaps that will go to support the maiden aunts later in life. I'm sure their brothers would be required to look after them because a woman always needs to be under some kind of authority. Geoff has previously talked about how the oldest son always got a double portion of the inheritance to support his widowed mother. I'm sure that applies to daughters, too.

 

18 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Why am I not surprised that Geoff Botkin thinks Hungary is the great hope of the western world? Hungary is a rising right-wing, authoritarian regime. The leader, Viktor Orbán, is like tRump, only smarter and therefore scarier. 

 

When Geoff mentioned Hungary's "pro-family policies" my first thought was blocking refugees and migrants from crossing through the country. Geoff absolutely would overlook those types of families and the policies that affect them.

Edited by Columbia
riffle
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1 hour ago, Columbia said:


@AnnaSofia How on earth did you find that conference?? There's been no mention of it on the Western Conservatory page, and the Botkins don't send out any update emails anymore. They didn't even send out the regular family picture like they used to at Christmas. How did they expect anyone to find this and attend without any advertisement? And how did they expect to pull this thing off for free? Who's paying for their flights over there? Who's paying for the logistics of the conference?

I think it was by Googling "Geoffrey Botkin", but it's buried on page seven.

I just tried using the settings to change the region/language to Hungary/Magyar but it didn't improve the results much, it was at the top of page six.

913806375_Screenshot_2019-03-03GeoffreyBotkin-Google-keress.thumb.png.bd16717dddc07e6342f17afd56ba1f2f.png

Maybe they planned to spread the word through churches there? I'm guessing they meant it to be a targeted audience, since it was a free event with food (even "light" food the Botkins weren't paying for). They're not gonna want too much riffraff :pb_rollseyes:

I'm curious as hell as to who was paying them to do it. You KNOW they're not spending their own money on anything.

Quote

I think it's so interesting that all names and faces associated with the site are gone. Was it all the people linking Lucas and T-Rex Arms back to Western Conservatory?

Yeah, I'm fairly certain they took down the photo collage after some of the gun sites linked to it, I noticed that it went offline right in the middle of some of that. In fairness, that page was fairly outdated, it goes back to 2012 or 2013, before Isaac married Heidi. The whole site seems more or less forgotten.

Quote

Are family members starting to pull away from it? They don't carry Audri and Ben's courtship webinar anymore, and I don't think I've ever seen them drop a product. Maybe all her Twitter posts about racism don't sit well with a family that refers to native African tribes as "savages."

I've wondered a bit about Ben and Audri. They were in a group photo for T. Rex not so long ago and obviously aren't estranged from the family, but they seem to be drifting away just ever so slightly. I noticed that Audri follows Lourdes Torres on Instagram. Ben recently congratulated Josh & Delaney on the birth of their baby, which is the first public interaction I've seen between the Botkins and Phillips since The Fall of the Tool. Faith Phillips seems close to the Verniers (Audri's family), but there was definite disconnect from the Botkins themselves.

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4 hours ago, Columbia said:

I wish I'd come up with the title. I don't know who did.

Guilty as charged ?

I started this new thread, and asked the mods to attach the Botkin-related posts from the Bradrick! Part 4 thread - where @Columbia gets all the credit for finding the "We, for one" ladies' Letter Of Outrage.

(And thanks to whoever mentioned Dolores Umbridge. She was the Harry Potter villain I most loved to hate, along with my then-young nephew and niece. Pink boucle suit for the win! :laughing-rollingyellow:)

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7 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Urgh. My family founded Giles County, TN. How it hath fallen.

Ah, but he's from Pulaski, home of the KKK-- I'd say he's about 150 years too late to signal the decline of local morals.

The only real news I'm seeing about him online is that he recently introduced a bill to allow EMTs to carry handguns while on duty, which is the sort of thing that the Botkins would be all over, but sounds like it could go wildly wrong.

Edited by NachosFlandersStyle
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Audri has been very outspoken about abuse the in church and supporting the me too movement. They "only" have 3 children and the youngest I believe is 3/4?? Those two actually have some talent musically, it's too bad they are stuck with Geoff's family vision employment plan of only working with each other.

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4 hours ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

Ah, but he's from Pulaski, home of the KKK-- I'd say he's about 150 years too late to signal the decline of local morals.

The only real news I'm seeing about him online is that he recently introduced a bill to allow EMTs to carry handguns while on duty, which is the sort of thing that the Botkins would be all over, but sounds like it could go wildly wrong.

He represents part of Giles :(

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9 hours ago, AnnaSofia said:

I noticed that Audri follows Lourdes Torres on Instagram.

Whoa! 

2 hours ago, teachergirl said:

Audri has been very outspoken about abuse the in church and supporting the me too movement. They "only" have 3 children and the youngest I believe is 3/4??

Double Whoa!  "Outspoken" being the operative word here.  She seems to be allowed independent computer use WITHOUT headship oversight of every keystroke.  Having an opinion (about anything) and unsupervised computer use would have been simply unimaginable during the VF heyday, or even in the current Botkin Collective Hive Mind/Duck Biologist Conservatory.

If/when they begin to attend a fundy church in town,  you'll know they have gone fundy regular and I truly wish that for them. They'd get to socialize and their children  would socialize with other kids, like normal people. 

And speaking of ducks, the posts upthread reminded me of L'il Guard Duck, in Steven Pastis' Pearls Before Swine comic strip. 

Here ya go: L'il Guard Duck

Also, what do you wanna bet that the Botkins use their "home church" as a tax shelter?

 

 

 

Edited by Howl
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On 3/4/2019 at 5:55 AM, Howl said:

Also, what do you wanna bet that the Botkins use their "home church" as a tax shelter?

Isn't that the whole point of home churches. To not have to pay taxes on any of your property?

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20 minutes ago, Black Aliss said:

Isn't that the whole point of home churches. To not have to pay taxes on any of your property?

Yes, indeed.  The Pennington patriarch sued the IRS over this issue and won. 

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8 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

Isn't that the whole point of home churches. To not have to pay taxes on any of your property?

I never thought about that, but yes I think that is probably most of the point.  I mean, we claim a portion of our house for our home-based business - but we really have a home-based business.  We can prove it, should the IRS ever ask us to.  But I see that a home church exemption would be so easy to misuse.

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On 3/5/2019 at 12:52 PM, Howl said:

Yes, indeed.  The Pennington patriarch sued the IRS over this issue and won. 

I don't know the details of the Pennington case but property tax is done at the state level, not federal, so any case involving the IRS would be about taxable or nontaxable income. (ETA and you may be saying that's what Pennington sued over and just responding to comments about property tax).

@Black Aliss, getting a religious tax exemption isn't as simple as declaring your house a church in most states.  Generally, the house would have to be owned by the church (and the church would already have to be registered and declared a tax exempt entity)  and you would have to prove it's used for church purposes.  Some states allow partial exemptions for home churches but again ownership comes into play.

For what it's worth, the Botkin homestead is owned by Dominion Holdings LLP,  it is taxable, and they did pay property taxes.

Edited by Kylolo
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