The Botkinettes Take Umbrage!

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

I have a Botkin friend, absolutely no relation at all to the Botkinetti. When I google the friend's full name i merely get way down on p.1 a link to friend's LinkedIn page. 

Took me a while to find AS & E.  They were not on p.1 of my search.

Narcissists much? Impressed for no reason with themselves much? 

[nausicaa]

My major takeaway from that letter is just how narcissistic these women are and how much their self-assessment is out of step with reality (something I've suspected since that wedding with armchairs on the dais waiting to gift their guests with their superior knowledge).

Ladies, you are mid-list notable within the Reformed world, and slipping down in the ranks with each year. No one in the secular world has any idea of who you are. Hell, half the posters on Free Jinger, a discussion forum devoted to patriarchal religious movements, have zero idea who you are. 

A blog can't do that much damage to your reputation, since you didn't have that much of a "reputation" to begin with. 

[Dreadcrumbs]

Quote

This goes against psychiatric and psychological codes of ethics. You don’t claim to be a licensed psychologist, but as setting yourself up as a teacher and advisor on psychological issues, you surely are aware that this conduct goes against the “Goldwater rule” (“It is unethical for a psychiatrist to offer a professional opinion unless he or she has conducted an examination”) and the APA Ethics Code, which exhorts psychologists to “provide opinions of the psychological characteristics of individuals only after they have conducted an examination of the individuals adequate to support their statements or conclusions.” You assure your readers many times that you are not making an official medical diagnosis, but these ethical guidelines aren’t about making a diagnosis, they’re about giving an opinion.

Gee, I guess it's a good thing Cindy Kunsman isn't a psychiatrist or psychologist and isn't claiming otherwise. ?

[DomWackTroll]

Don't even ask how I stumbled across this...

...but I did such a double take I almost broke my neck! Is this how Geoff spent his shadowy, "lost" years? 

Edited February 21, 2019 by DomWackTroll

[hoipolloi]

5 minutes ago, DomWackTroll said:

Is this how Geoff spent his shadowy, "lost" years? 

Would this be before the career in duck biology, and possibly B.V. (before Victoria)? 

 

[Palimpsest]

12 hours ago, nausicaa said:

Ladies, you are mid-list notable within the Reformed world, and slipping down in the ranks with each year. No one in the secular world has any idea of who you are. Hell, half the posters on Free Jinger, a discussion forum devoted to patriarchal religious movements, have zero idea who you are. 

This.  And I will guess that a lot of people have absolutely no idea who Cindy Kunsman is either.  She used to post here until there was a really big blow-up.  She showed her still Fundie knickers most unbecomingly back then.  She didn't show in a good light during the big split between the older and younger generations on NLQ either.

Cindy and NLQ are milking this Botkin Sisters' letter for all it is worth and I suppose I can't blame them.  It is getting them extra hits after all.  And Cindy gets to beat her breast, polish her halo again, and out-Christian the Botkins on "forgiveness." 

It is really just an unofficial cease and desist letter wrapped up in Christianese  She could have simply ignored it.  They could try to sue her, but I doubt they could get anyone to take the case, and they would almost certainly lose in court.  Also the info is all over the place.  They would have to sue Patheos, FJ, and numerous others -- including Kathryn Joyce.  I'm sure her publishers made sure to check the sources.  Here's a relevant excerpt from Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement.

 http://killingthebuddha.com/mag/dogma/victory-through-daughters/

Also the basic facts about GB's attitudes to his daughters are all over his and their writings and teachings.  I think Katie Botkin has confirmed some of the bio details (he did not grow up in a Marxist home) and the Rushdooney and McCotter connections can easily be confirmed by others.

So Cindy does not need to change one word of that Overcoming Botkin Syndrome post.  If what she wrote is demonstrably true it is not libel.  She's making a big deal about looking it over to make sure she is blaming Geoff and not AS & E, but the original article was quite clear, IIRC.

By the way, Suzanne.  No need to put a (sic) after mischaracterization.  It may seem a bit old-fashioned in the US, and is more common in the UK, but AS and E did not misspell the word.

And I wonder who is responsible for this bit of oddness, which comes up on google before Cindy's blog post:  http://www.botkinsyndrome.com/  Sorry to disappoint you, AS and E, but It doesn't have anything to do with Patriarchal Fathers.  Perhaps you are not as famous as you think you are.  

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Palimpsest

[Lisafer]

@Palimpsest I was not aware that Kunsman had been a member here. Searching back, it seems like everything blew up somewhere around the time of The Great Transition of FJ? That would explain why I missed it, as I wasn't a member and stopped visiting FJ for a while. 

I will say, if she is not sincere in her posts about the Botkins' letter, she certainly has the ability to make herself SOUND good. But since I don't like NLQ and don't read Under Much Grace, I'm definitely out of the loop on her previous activities. 

I wouldn't even call the Botkins "mid-list" fundies at this point. They are has-beens, out of touch with reality and with the progressively modernized appearance of fundamentalism. 

[Palimpsest]

@Lisafer, I think Kunsman's soul searching is probably genuine, but I don't see why she needs to make such a dramatic song and dance about it.  I do appreciate some of her research and writings about spiritual abuse.  They are quite good and detailed, if you can wade past her writing style.

However, she has demonstrated that she still holds extreme Fundie beliefs about some things, notably homosexuality and gender identity issues..  And she attempted to minimize the abuse at Hehpzibah House.  Also she definitely fell off the fence on the wrong side of the generational divide amongst survivors with the NLQ and HSA debacle.  

She used to post on yuku as undermuchgrace and here as Brainsample.  FYI, I'm not outing her because she outed herself.  The worst thread I also missed in real time but it was bad enough to have been hidden permanently.  You can find a summary of what went down if you look though.  It was really nasty.

23 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

I wouldn't even call the Botkins "mid-list" fundies at this point. They are has-beens, out of touch with reality and with the progressively modernized appearance of fundamentalism. 

They are increasingly irrelevant and have been very quiet recently, except for their victim blaming treatise last May.  The still have their fans though.  Not every Fundie group has modernized.  I suspect that Geoff Botkin and Western Conservatory has slowed down almost to a dead halt, as have his other ideas like the survivalist group based entirely on internet connections.  Lucas's holster business is probably their main source of income at the moment.  Pity they don't understand that his anti-gay slurs and apparently sub-par holsters* are to blame if his business is doing badly.  I hardly think Cindy Kunsman's 2008 blog is to blame for him losing business.

*I read that Reddit thread months ago when we discussed it here.  Most of the criticism of the holsters went right over my head because I know nothing about guns. Lol.

[smittykins]

That passage in Quiverfull about the nine-year-old girl being a sister-mom still makes me sad.  She should only have to care for her dolls(and, barring a learning disability, should be able to read!).

[Lisafer]

8 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

@Lisafer, I think Kunsman's soul searching is probably genuine, but I don't see why she needs to make such a dramatic song and dance about it.  I do appreciate some of her research and writings about spiritual abuse.  They are quite good and detailed, if you can wade past her writing style.

However, she has demonstrated that she still holds extreme Fundie beliefs about some things, notably homosexuality and gender identity issues..  And she attempted to minimize the abuse at Hehpzibah House.  Also she definitely fell off the fence on the wrong side of the generational divide amongst survivors with the NLQ and HSA debacle.  

She used to post on yuku as undermuchgrace and here as Brainsample.  FYI, I'm not outing her because she outed herself.  The worst thread I also missed in real time but it was bad enough to have been hidden permanently.  You can find a summary of what went down if you look though.  It was really nasty.

They are increasingly irrelevant and have been very quiet recently, except for their victim blaming treatise last May.  The still have their fans though.  Not every Fundie group has modernized.  I suspect that Geoff Botkin and Western Conservatory has slowed down almost to a dead halt, as have his other ideas like the survivalist group based entirely on internet connections.  Lucas's holster business is probably their main source of income at the moment.  Pity they don't understand that his anti-gay slurs and apparently sub-par holsters* are to blame if his business is doing badly.  I hardly think Cindy Kunsman's 2008 blog is to blame for him losing business.

*I read that Reddit thread months ago when we discussed it here.  Most of the criticism of the holsters went right over my head because I know nothing about guns. Lol.

I wondered if perhaps that Reddit thread had shown up here before! I get a sense that Lucas is also into a very "macho" style of handling firearms...there's different types of people in the firearm culture, and some of them would find his personality/style very unappealing. I've met guys at the shooting range who took a very serious, gun-as-a-tool approach, and others who thought it was great to "pack heat" because it made them feel manly. Needless to say, I'd guess Lucas falls into the latter category. 

I agree the Botkins still have some fans; I just wish there was a way to quantify the decrease in fans, because I'm sure it's very significant. 

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

She used to post on yuku as undermuchgrace and here as Brainsample.  FYI, I'm not outing her because she outed herself.  The worst thread I also missed in real time but it was bad enough to have been hidden permanently.  You can find a summary of what went down if you look though.  It was really nasty.

I didn't make the connection between the Botkin Syndrome and her, thanks for reminding us! What she did was really bad. 

The Botkins, if they are going to survive, will have to do what the other fundies are doing and adopt a more modern approach. The trends that made them money have fallen out of fashion. I don't see the duck biologist being willing to do that, though. 

 

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, Lisafer said:

I wondered if perhaps that Reddit thread had shown up here before! I get a sense that Lucas is also into a very "macho" style of handling firearms...there's different types of people in the firearm culture, and some of them would find his personality/style very unappealing. I've met guys at the shooting range who took a very serious, gun-as-a-tool approach, and others who thought it was great to "pack heat" because it made them feel manly. Needless to say, I'd guess Lucas falls into the latter category. 

I agree the Botkins still have some fans; I just wish there was a way to quantify the decrease in fans, because I'm sure it's very significant. 

I'd say Lucas and all the other Botkin laddies most definitely fall into the "irresponsible" style of handling firearms.  Nothing macho about it just cosplay with lethal weapons.

I can't remember which one thought it was cool to photograph a baby with a gun next to it in the crib, but that happened.  The proof may be on this thread starting around here (sorry don't have time to find it today):

 

[Lisafer]

4 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I'd say Lucas and all the other Botkin laddies most definitely fall into the "irresponsible" style of handling firearms.  Nothing macho about it just cosplay with lethal weapons.

I can't remember which one thought it was cool to photograph a baby with a gun next to it in the crib, but that happened.  The proof may be on this thread starting around here (sorry don't have time to find it today):

 

Oh, I didn't mean they were actually macho, just that they thought they were, haha! Responsible gun owners don't like that shit any more than the rest of the world, especially because it makes all gun owners look bad to have asses like that running around. 

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

However, she has demonstrated that she still holds extreme Fundie beliefs about some things, notably homosexuality and gender identity issues..  And she attempted to minimize the abuse at Hehpzibah House.  Also she definitely fell off the fence on the wrong side of the generational divide amongst survivors with the NLQ and HSA debacle.  

She used to post on yuku as undermuchgrace and here as Brainsample.  FYI, I'm not outing her because she outed herself.  The worst thread I also missed in real time but it was bad enough to have been hidden permanently.  You can find a summary of what went down if you look though.  It was really nasty.

Yes, it was extremely nasty.  

IMO, the motive for sending their letter was money. It seems likely that the main (maybe only) viable source of income for the TN Botkin clan is T-Rex Arms. Not being a gun nut enthusiast myself, the technicalities of the Reddit thread were way beyond me, but the comments by folks there indicated that they were less than enchanted with the products as well as their sellers. That said, it's hard to see how Under Much Grace would have a greater effect on the arms business than either the quality of their products or Lucas's ham-fisted marketing strategies.

 

[hoipolloi]

The Botkins also got into a tiff with the local planning & permitting authorities over their desire to expand the footprint of their arms business. The link goes to an FJ discussion about it last year. Don't know the outcome of their attempts to expand the business, but if they didn't succeed that might have created more financial issues for them & the family business.

You know, if the Botkins are so litigious, why don't they go after these guys for using T. Rex in their company name?

And what is it about gun nuts and T. Rex? Tiny arms = tiny peepee = need BIG guns? I'm clearly not getting something here.

[The Mother Dust]

47 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

The Botkins also got into a tiff with the local planning & permitting authorities over their desire to expand the footprint of their arms business. The link goes to an FJ discussion about it last year. Don't know the outcome of their attempts to expand the business, but if they didn't succeed that might have created more financial issues for them & the family business.

You know, if the Botkins are so litigious, why don't they go after these guys for using T. Rex in their company name?

And what is it about gun nuts and T. Rex? Tiny arms = tiny peepee = need BIG guns? I'm clearly not getting something here.

I think they are trying to play on "small arms."  But that's definitely not the first thing you think of, the 1st image that pops into most people's heads is actual tiny TRex arms, which is bad marketing. They should have gone with Botkin Bros Arms Dealers, or something alot more adult/professional sounding like that. Ooohh, and it would have helped to pull their Google search away from "Botkin Syndrome" too!   (I think) Not a goggle tactics expert. ?

Does anyone know about the result of their tiff with planning and zoning? I had read about that a while ago, but forgot to follow up on it.

Edited February 21, 2019 by The Mother Dust

[AnnaSofia]

If T. Rex Arms is getting a bad rep from the old "Botkin Syndrome" posts, it's no one's fault but their own.

From what I can tell, T.Rex started out with a lot of good will in the firearms community, and squandered a good chunk of it.

They're know for making Appendix Inside the Waistband (AIWB) or "apex carry" holsters. Basically, it's shoving a gun down the front of your pants (make of that what you will). The concept has been around forever, but apex carry has been especially trendy the past 5-10 yrs or so because it's easy to conceal, and quicker to draw from than other methods of concealed carry. I suspect part of the reason for T.Rex Arms success is that they got in the market at just the right time. Lucas also made connections with some respected people in the firearms community, which helped a lot in establishing the brand.

The early reviews were very good (from what I can tell, the product is decent), and so was word of mouth, for the most part. T.Rex was slow at filling orders, but most people seemed more or less forgiving of the fact that it was a small business. The strain began to show when the lag times got even longer, and Lucas's social media presence grew a lot faster than T.Rex product output did. A lot of "Get off Instagram and go make the holster I ordered a month ago." comments started popping up.

As customers became disgruntled, they Googled Lucas, found the old "Botkin Syndrome" stuff, and word of the family's background started to spread on various gun forums, 4chan boards, and Reddit subs. Then Lucas made a very homophobic post on his Instagram stories, and people who already found him suspect had a field day. Then came accusations that he manipulates his videos to make himself look faster than he is. The only time he actually attended a major shooting competition, he was disqualified.

[formergothardite]

6 minutes ago, AnnaSofia said:

The only time he actually attended a major shooting competition, he was disqualified.

I was searching for info about that but couldn't find it, but I did find his response to accusations he manipulated his videos. 

Quote

So a number of people think I speed up my videos. Particularly this one. So I thought it would be cool to break down how I do what I do, and why I do what I do.

My name is Lucas Botkin. I’m a civilian. I’m not MIL/LE or a competition shooter. I’m just a young guy who’s motivated, is willing to fail, persevere through that failure, and push my standards. If you want to get really good at shooting, you have GOT to be motivated and you MUST be willing to push yourself. If you just want to attend classes and plink around, you’re never going to progress to the next level. That only comes with motivation, failure, and perseverance.

I’ve failed lots. TONS. That’s how progression works. If you’re afraid to fail, you will never excel. I’m the shooter that I am today because I’ve failed time and time again. But with every fail I analyze, pick myself up, and push harder.

But you know what the cool part is? My journey isn’t over… it’s only just started. Train hard everyone.

He just sounds smug and completely unlikable. He has apparently removed the video of him 'proving" he doesn't speed up his videos. 

[AnnaSofia]

10 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I was searching for info about that but couldn't find it

https://practiscore.com/results/new/59850

[fundiefan]

Every word they type has always been full of their pumped up pride & self importance. 

Good to see nothing has changed over the years.

Seriously, I laughed most of the way through reading that drivel. 

[formergothardite]

I looked around and it really looks like Lucas rubs people the wrong way in the gun world. It isn't surprising since they were all raised to think they are sooooo much better than the rest of us. 

Quote

lucas from t-rex comes off as douchey like a skinny chris costa in his videos

Quote

I like Travis Haley's kid. T-Rex Arms not so much...

Quote

he seemed like an egotistical showboat that wanted to show off more than provide information.

Quote

I've heard Trex edits his videos and never shows his hits, there is also the whole gay bashing thing on his social media, so I say douche. 

Quote

I shot a match with Lucas a few years back. Dude was a complete d-bag.

Quote

Lucas Botkin is a straight bitch. The gay bashing thing is enough to put him on my shitlist, but he's an asshole in pretty much every other way too apparently, and his holsters are garbage. (Removed -40xb) Fuck him.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Thoughts-on-garand-thumb-and-trex-arms-/5-2117083/

I guess the Botkin sisters aren't ready to tell precious Lucas that the reason his business fails is because he is a jerk and makes poor quality things. Better to write a letter blaming someone else so they can protect his ego. 

[Howl]

Quote

I shot a match with Lucas a few years back. Dude was a complete d-bag.

Ooooops,  not good for bidness. 

One thing to remember.  The Botkins only have each other for company and Geoff, a pretentious and obnoxiously conceited patriarchal ass, for a role model. 

The obsession with the nuclear family and patriarch to the detriment of socialization in the larger world is a huge Achilles heel for these insular families.  In fact, the Botkins actively discourage socialization outside the family because Devil and potential exposure to not-Geoff  experiences.  I mean, they HOME CHURCH. 

Lucas has been taught from Day 1 that he is superior to women and most other men, which leads to World Class Douchery.  Lucas is likely completely oblivious to how he comes across. 

[formergothardite]

8 minutes ago, Howl said:

Lucas is likely completely oblivious to how he comes across. 

Almost certainly. They have probably read those comments, they are pretty easy to find when searching his name. From the letter the Botkin sisters sent it is clear that the idea that Lucas behaves in a way that drives off potential customers isn't something they can see. 

When was the last time anyone in that family actually worked outside the compound? Have they ever? 

 

[nelliebelle1197]

On 2/20/2019 at 10:59 AM, Howl said:

A comparison of the life trajectory of the wonderful Katie Botkin with the Botkinettis is the perfect example of how patriarchy, and particularly the Geoff "Duck Biologist" Botkin brand, stunts the lives of otherwise intelligent women. 

When the Elizabeth and A-S claim that their father never treated them differently, never thought women were less than, encouraged them to follow their passions anywhere it might lead them ---- bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. 

It was incredibly hard to get  past the verbal agitprop tsunami that is their letter.  But this is a crux sentence in their thinly veiled threat of future legal action: And please demonstrate your concern for truth by removing all libelous “information” and speculative accusations from your website.

Also, Botkinettis, if you want to know if a letter has been picked up, you send it USPS Certified *Freaking* Mail with electronic notification when it's been delivered or picked up, rather than harassing USPS personnel. 

You mean he prayed over the boys' ovaries, too?

[hoipolloi]

4 hours ago, formergothardite said:

When was the last time anyone in that family actually worked outside the compound?

Going to say "NEVER" except, possibly, for daddy Greg who in the distant past may have had a day job or two (duck biologist!) as someone else's employee.