Baptists & Decades of Sexual Abuse

[RosyDaisy]

Aww hell! I can't get anything straight apparently. Please ignore my previous comments. I'm just gonna say that I'm against any kind of discrimination in the church.

[Briefly]

I am still not surprised but I am very disappointed.  I will see what the pastor at my church says on Sunday, but I am willing to be $$ that he will want to leave the denomination.  The individual churches will have to vote on leaving or staying and it will come down to numbers.  If my church votes to leave, which I hope it does, then I will stay with my church.  If the vote is to stay with the UMC, then I will most likely start looking. Again. I may have more thoughts later, I'm kind of bummed out right now.

Gay rights are human rights, and that is the crux of the matter.  Same thing applies to minorities and women.  Human rights.

[MarblesMom]

"The end of the meeting was rushed: The Methodists needed to leave, because a monster truck rally was scheduled next in the stadium."

Really, folks?!  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/02/26/united-methodist-church-votes-maintain-its-opposition-same-sex-marriage-gay-clergy/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.536076bf92c2

[SilverBeach]

42 minutes ago, Briefly said:

Gay rights are human rights, and that is the crux of the matter.  Same thing applies to minorities and women.  Human rights.

Well said. Why can't churches and denominations get over themselves and realize this? The RCA almost split over gay marriage a few years ago, and it got so ugly, a lot of un-Christlike behavior took place. The denomination voted to keep the definition of marriage as one man-one woman (biblical permutations notwithstanding).  I should have left then. I simply can no longer support a denomination that doesn't see non-cishet people as people first, who also have the right to love and be loved. It's a dealbreaker for me.

[hoipolloi]

3 hours ago, AuntKrazy said:

From my understanding, a good portion of the UMC special session delegates are from countries with stricter "morality" laws than the United States, as membership of the UMC has greater representation now in other parts of the globe other than the US.

IIRC, this was the situation with the Anglican/Episcopalian split some years ago. A number of the church leaders & congregations who opposed full participation for LGBTQ members were from outside North America & Western Europe.

That said, though, there were a number of very conservative Episcopalian congregations in the US who opposed this too. Because of the way the church held property, it ended up being very costly for many of the breakaway churches.

[Walking Cat Bed]

So the SBC is going to continue to pretend that predatory abusers aren't drawn to their churches because there is no accountability, and the Methodists are looking at big changes because some believe that the LGBTQ are just people (and enough believe that LGBTQ people are "mentally ill" or "sinners" or whatever).

 

At least some churches want to keep their congregants and communities safe, and are willing to make big changes to continue this.

[Briefly]

I just spoke to the secretary at my church.  She said that at this point nothing will change. The next full meeting/conference is in 2020, and at that point then things such as what was voted on yesterday will be put to a vote to be accepted by the full UMC.  It may be rejected at that point, but it's too soon to say either way as it's over a year away still.  She said that most of the people who work at the church or have been there today for other reasons are upset and she said that most people she's spoken to on the phone are also grieving.  The line about the churches being able to keep their own property is most likely not true, as the majority of the church properties are owned by the UMC and not the individual congregation.  Because the denomination is so large and is world wide, it is often a situation of a majority from one or two countries being able to be the majority of the votes.  That is what happened this week, it was mainly Africa and Philippines countries members that are in control of the way voting goes based on their numbers.  She said that issue is something that may be addressed as it goes directly against the idea of being a welcoming, worldwide church and that one part of the world is making decision for the entire world, basically.  The penalties and punishments may well be tightened up and actually used, one of the main issues raised by the people who held the majority of the votes is that their cultural tradition is why they voted the way they did and why they were insistent that punishment must be given.  Their cultural tradition, not a faith-based tradition.  Those particular countries are not known for being big on gay rights.  Not all of, but most of, the American and closer country members that were voting members have come away from the meetings with the feeling that their opinions were not being listened to, and she explained it very much in terms like the majority voters bull dozing over anyone who disagreed with them.  I'm possibly not wording that last part well. But it makes sense, the way she said it.

But at this point, nothing will change.  Although she said that they have already heard of some churches starting the discussion of leaving, if/when it becomes "law" as far as what was voted on this week.  She said that the pastor will discuss things this Sunday and I won't be surprised if my church starts making general plans for a future membership vote on leaving.

[AuntKrazy]

@Briefly

I believe that there are a lot of congregations in the US that are feeling similarly (mine being one of them).  I wonder if there will simply be a splintering of the worldwide affiliation?  I am on our faith development committee at my UMC and we had a meeting last night and it took about three times as long as normal because all of us were grieving after yesterday.

My mother is a member of a UMC in another state, and they are upset as well.  

My hope is that we don't lose the "come as you are, we welcome you" aspect that has sustained my faith over the years.

[Evangeline]

Many in our UMC are grieving today as well. Seeing my amazing pastors and LGBT friends so discouraged is breaking my heart. Though honestly, I don't know how a vote would go. We're a small liberal-ish congregation in a conservative area, surrounded by large SBC churches and large, traditional UMCs that for sure won't break off. The property issue would be huge for us as a small church. The pastors from our region are going to meet up soon to try to figure out what happens next. 

Does anyone know WHY we heard nothing about the Connectional Conference Plan? It wasn't my favorite idea but it's better than what we ended up with. 

 

[Bethella]

9 minutes ago, Evangeline said:

Does anyone know WHY we heard nothing about the Connectional Conference Plan? It wasn't my favorite idea but it's better than what we ended up with. 

My understanding was that the Connectional Conference Plan lacked endorsements compared to the other plans plus the Judicial Council did not rule on its constitutionality when it considered the three plans in the Way Forward report. The council said it had no authority to scrutinize that plan because it would require several constitutional amendments. With all of that, it doesn’t appear to have made it out of the committee meeting on Sunday when they prioritized things for Monday’s plenary meeting.

[molecule]

I've seen so many hurting hearts. My congregation is small and conservative, but I expect we will lose a few families.

Bishops and District Superintendents will be meeting to talk about how to proceed. My guess is that it will take a couple years for most of us to navigate through this, although I expect some congregations and individuals will take action immediately. My husband and I will likely stay put. I make a bigger difference from within the system I want to change.

And I have to say that JJ Warren is one of my new heroes. His Spirit-filled speech gave me chills and had me in tears.

[Bethella]

I was really touched and moved by the statement from the Western Jurisdiction. http://westernjurisdictionumc.org/ahomeforall/

Quote

We have long appreciated the richness of the global diversity of our United Methodist Church and have embraced opportunities to join with you all in the work of making disciples for the transformation of the world.

We also understand the purpose of the Church to be in mission and ministry. Consequently, we in the West have been functioning for years as One Church committed to full inclusion, seeking to be a home for all God’s people.

Today we acknowledge the fracture of this body, yet we worship a God who tells us that the body of Christ has many parts, all equally valued. Rooted in Wesleyan tradition, grounded in Scripture and committed to mission and ministry, the Western Jurisdiction intends to continue to be one church, fully inclusive and open to all God’s children, across the theological and social spectrum.

We know from experience we are stronger when we live together as progressives, traditionalists, and centrists in our Church. Many times during this Conference we have sung or prayed or blessed each other with the reminder that we need each other.

We also know there are others who feel the same way today, so we invite you to be in dialogue with us as we move forward together into a future with hope.

May God continue to bless us for the sake of the world. Thank you.

[Briefly]

This is from my UMC church newsletter, which just came today.  It was written by the pastor.  At least some of the provisions of the Traditional Plan have been ruled unconstitutional and he says that the entire plan will be deliberated.  I think it's ok to post this, I'm not putting names or anything in.  There was a little more, he talked about not losing heart and having hope, basically.

Quote

Sharp disagreement within the church is not a new thing; it has been a constant from the beginning. The reason for this is that the church is full of people and people think, experience God, and interpret scripture in different ways. Earlier in Acts, Peter received a word from God that the Gentile people his Bible told him were unclean…were not. “You yourselves know that it is unlawful for a Jew to associate with or to visit a Gentile; but God has shown me that I should not call anyone profane or unclean” (Acts 10:28). After Peter shared the Good News of Jesus with this household of Gentiles, “the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word” and they were “baptized in the name of Jesus Christ” (Acts 10:44-48).  Christianity, which began as a sect of Judaism, suddenly included Gentiles.  
 
But inclusion of Gentiles into the church became a divisive issue so the nascent church convened a council at Jerusalem to settle it (see Acts 15).  Both Peter and Paul testified to their (and the Spirit’s) work, with many Gentiles coming to Christ.  Persuaded that God was obviously accepting Gentiles (people their Bible declared unclean), James, the brother of Jesus, “decided that we should not trouble those Gentiles who are turning to God” with circumcision and “impose no further burden than these essentials: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well” (Acts 15:19, 28-9). Done. Welcome into the church, Gentiles! 
 
We United Methodists have just had our own “council,” not in Jerusalem but in St. Louis; but it did not go as well for inclusion here.  Our General Conference (GC) rejected the One Church Plan, which would have given churches, pastors and conferences freedom to host and perform same-sex weddings and ordain LGBTQ clergy – or not.  Instead, the GC adopted the Traditionalist Plan, which not only maintains the current ban on same-sex weddings and LGBTQ clergy, but enhances punishment for infractions.  Rather than allowing full inclusion of LGBTQ persons, the UMC doubled down. Twothirds of American delegates had indicated preference for the One Church Plan, but a minority in America plus the mostly conservative African and Asian delegates passed the Traditionalist plan with a 53% margin.  We could have kept a big tent church recognizing regional and theological differences – but we didn’t. More than half weren’t interested in being in a church with those who think differently than they do. 
 
So what now?  Well, first of all, it will take some time for the dust to settle. A number of provisions of the Traditional Plan have already been ruled unconstitutional by the Judicial Council; and they will begin deliberating the constitutionality of the ENTIRE Traditional plan in late April.  It would likely take until next year’s 2020 GC to amend whatever must be fixed.  Little happens quickly in the institutional church.  But in this lull, traditional and progressive groups are talking about options and possibilities, including schism and new denominations.

 

[molecule]

We are a mostly but not entirely conservative congregation. Some people are hurting deeply, and many are worried and confused about our church. I was touched by our pastor's letter. She tried to acknowledge the hurt and confusion and also reassure us about the process while pointing us to the larger work of the Church.

Quote

 

In a time like this, it is crucial to remember that Xxxxx United Methodist Church has always, and will always, welcome every person. We believe everyone is a beloved child of God. Throughout the history of this church, this vital message is what we preached, sang, and believed, and we will continue this important message in the days and years to come. Our strength is the diversity within our body. We need each other. We are called to be compassionate toward each other.

In the midst of confusing and contradictory news we receive from the media today, some clarifications are needed:

1) Parts of the “Traditional Plan” voted at General Conference appeared to be going against our own disciplines. For this reason, this plan will be submitted to the Judicial Council. The council will rule about this during its regularly scheduled next meeting, April 23-25, 2019 in Evanston, IL. We will not know until after that what portions of the Traditional Plan are actually valid.

2) Our bishop along with the cabinet will also need to study and understand what may be the actual consequences of all this for the Wisconsin churches. This too will take some time.

3) These processes may actually carry over to the next General Conference in two years. By then things may be quite different.

Some of you may feel deeply confused, discouraged and ready to retire your support from both our local as well as the general church. I strongly encourage you to “hang in there”. The reality is that our financial support to the general church saves, and will continue to save, lives around the globe. Our faithful support, presence and prayers right here at Salem allow us to keep bringing healing, care, love and hope to us, our children, our grandchildren and all of those who are not here yet.

You see, God’s plans are a lot bigger than our plans and what we are capable of seeing right now. Thank God! God has plans of welfare, future and hope. On this promise, I stand firm. For this reason, we will continue to work on our dreaming and plans for the coming years at Salem. We stand on hope.

Finally, and most importantly, I invite you today to use compassion: compassion toward yourself and toward others. Give to God your troubles, uncertainty, and anger. Be compassionate toward those who are troubled by all that is happening, especially toward youth and young adults who are struggling with their identity and faith. Use compassion toward all those who have different opinions from you in this matter. Let’s God’s love shine through us.

This is a time of trouble, transition, separation and pain.

Yet I am hopeful, because I stand in God’s hope.

 

 

[Evangeline]

Thank you so much for those statements @Briefly and @molecule. I was also encouraged by this statement from Birmingham-Southern College in Alabama: 

https://www.bsc.edu/communications/news/2019/02/BSC president issues statement on UMC decision.html

[Briefly]

@Evangeline, that you for posting that.  It's refreshing.  Hope is not lost.  It's bruised a bit, but not lost.

[Briefly]

My church sign today.  It usually has something seasonal or upbeat, something about a program at the church or the garage sale coming up next week.  But this is what it says today.

[Briefly]

I just got home from a meeting at church.  There were no services last Sunday because it was icy so the meeting was put off until tonight.  There were quite a few people in attendance and it was very informative.  I know I'll forget something if I try to go over everything, so I'm just going to hit the highlights.

Basically, it is as the church secretary originally told me.  The African and Asian country churches delegates basically bullied people and forced the vote to go their way.  Part of the way they did this is through the votes being taken on electronic devices.  Quite a few delegates from those churches have gone on record as saying that they wanted to vote for the One Church Plan, but they were told by the heads of their groups that their Bishop would know how they voted and that they would be punished if they voted "wrong" and not for the Traditional Plan.  Those devices are not traceable in the way that they were told, their vote would still have been secret but they were scared into thinking that they would have been reported to their Bishop and that they (and possibly their family members) would have been punished. Before the vote, several of them had already stated that they would vote for the One Church Plan and it would probably have passed.

The pastor said that quite a few of the things voted in are against the UM constitution and have already been ruled invalid, about 60% actually.  That probably means that the entire document will be scrapped and not presented at the General Counsel meeting in 2020.  However, it probably does NOT mean that the Open Plan will be presented again.  He thinks it is very possible, even probable, that there will be a split.  His thinking is that the one to split off of the United Methodist Church will be the American churches.

At this point, nothing will officially change.  But my church, like many others, will continue to be welcoming and inclusive - and will continue the Open Doors, Open Hearts, Open Mind that it has been doing.  He thinks that by the 2020 conference, their will probably be a plan to address the churches that want to leave and what their options will be.