Baptists & Decades of Sexual Abuse

[EmiGirl]

21 minutes ago, Briefly said:

At least one Tulsa area Presbyterian church split from the PCA and is now PCUSA.  There was a court case about the property and the church had to basically buy the property from the PCA - even though they owned it already.

That is an issue when any Presbyterian church breaks from the denomination because technically the Presybyery, not the church itself owns the property. 

[Hane]

@Briefly, I’d suspected that about the United Methodist Church. The partner of a late friend of mine was a UMC minister,  and despite his popularity with his congregation, was shown the door by his highers-up for being out and gay back around 1990.

[SilverBeach]

2 hours ago, EmiGirl said:

That is an issue when any Presbyterian church breaks from the denomination because technically the Presybyery, not the church itself owns the property. 

This happens in the RCA also.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

15 hours ago, Lisafer said:

...but Presbys have a central authority, so it's a big deal when a group splits off and defies the Synod or Presbytery.

My one experience of a Presbyterian church splitting was less significant than a split over slavery, or LGBTQ rights, but more significant than hair splitting. The United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. (it was the 70s, so pre-PCUSA) minister became very charismatic, and wanted the church to leave the denomination. 

3 hours ago, EmiGirl said:

That is an issue when any Presbyterian church breaks from the denomination because technically the Presybyery, not the church itself owns the property. 

And that was the case back then. The regional Presbytery asserted its rights to the property, so the charismatic minister and his followers (about half the church) left. It happened when I was a preschooler, so I grew up in a very small congregation in a big church building. With my parents talking about people they used to be friends with when the married couples fellowship group was dozens of couples, instead of 5 or 6 families.

It was an interesting way to grow up. Even by the time I was in high school, the youth group usually only had 6 or 7 kids at a time. My sister's high school Sunday school class was her and one other girl. The nice lady who was their "teacher" would walk over to a nearby donut shop with them, and they would chat for an hour. I was jealous!

[Evangeline]

@Briefly the United Methodist General Conference will be Feb. 23-26. They'll consider at least two options that could avoid a split. My UM pastors think one of those options will pass but are prepared to leave if they have to so they can continue to support LBGT people. More info here: http://www.umc.org/topics/general-conference-2019-special-session

[Briefly]

6 hours ago, Evangeline said:

@Briefly the United Methodist General Conference will be Feb. 23-26. They'll consider at least two options that could avoid a split. My UM pastors think one of those options will pass but are prepared to leave if they have to so they can continue to support LBGT people. More info here: http://www.umc.org/topics/general-conference-2019-special-session

Thank you, I already knew when the conference is.  I'm watching with interest to see what happens.  I do think that the UMC in general is trying to be a little more welcoming but at this point who knows what will happen.  I will not be surprised if there is a split, but I hope that there isn't.  Either way, my church will probably leave if it comes down to it.

[EmiGirl]

9 hours ago, Evangeline said:

@Briefly the United Methodist General Conference will be Feb. 23-26. They'll consider at least two options that could avoid a split. My UM pastors think one of those options will pass but are prepared to leave if they have to so they can continue to support LBGT people. More info here: http://www.umc.org/topics/general-conference-2019-special-session

Has your pastor explained the options? I tried reading around,  but couldn't grasp what the options meant. 

[molecule]

Has your pastor explained the options? I tried reading around,  but couldn't grasp what the options meant. 

This link has links to fairly good descriptions of the plans: http://www.umcom.org/news/summaries-of-the-way-forward-commission-report.

This is very simplistic, but here's my understanding of the three plans.

The traditional plan would keep the Book of Discipline the way it is. The conventional plan says that we would align ourselves with connectional conferences based on shared values (as opposed to geography-based conferences as we currently have). The one church plan says that we maintain our current geography-based conferences and that individual congregations and pastors decide for themselves how to address same-sex relationships and marriages.

Our pastor hasn't spoken much about this at all, and people in the congregation have not been asking about it. No matter what plan is decided, it is going to create upheaval in some way. I'm chair of our church council, so I will be in the thick of any fallout at my church.

[Evangeline]

Thanks for saving me some typing @molecule. The hand-out I was given aligns with your explanation. My pastors think the One Church Plan or the Connectional Conference Plan will pass. Supposedly, the One Church Plan has support from the majority of bishops. I guess we'll see. 

[molecule]

I'm intrigued by the connectional plan, although it looks like it would have the most complicated transition process.

We'll know soon!

[EmiGirl]

Thanks for the info! It sounds like it's going to be a complicated process any way it goes. I'll be thinking and praying for your churches. 

[Evangeline]

Well, this is not going the way I had hoped. It seems the Traditional Plan has been approved by the relevant committee and the One Church Plan has failed in committee. This story doesn't say anything about the Connectional Conference Plan. I'm just sad. I'm new to the UMC and was really hoping to have something to be proud of. Now it looks like a split is likely and we'll be the side that has to leave. ? I'm worried for my pastors who are pretty much the best people I've ever known. It'll be tough on them. 

https://religionnews.com/2019/02/25/united-methodist-committee-rejects-one-church-plan-which-would-allow-lgbt-clergy/

[Briefly]

8 minutes ago, Evangeline said:

Well, this is not going the way I had hoped. It seems the Traditional Plan has been approved by the relevant committee and the One Church Plan has failed in committee. This story doesn't say anything about the Connectional Conference Plan. I'm just sad. I'm new to the UMC and was really hoping to have something to be proud of. Now it looks like a split is likely and we'll be the side that has to leave. ? I'm worried for my pastors who are pretty much the best people I've ever known. It'll be tough on them. 

https://religionnews.com/2019/02/25/united-methodist-committee-rejects-one-church-plan-which-would-allow-lgbt-clergy/

I am disappointed but I guess I'm not totally surprised. The only light spot I could see is that churches that leave will be able to keep their property.  I am fairly certain that mine will be one that will leave, the pastor is very open and accepting of people, he is one of the signatories on the letter to the Tulsa World several years ago affirming same-sex marriage and the rights of all people. Also, one of the adult class Sunday school teachers is a gay man with a partner (maybe spouse, I'm not sure.)  I didn't make it to church yesterday, I intended to but time got away from me.  However, I will be there this coming Sunday.

[RosyDaisy]

I just got off the phone with my MIL. They are leaving the UMC over this.

[MarblesMom]

UMC is live streaming the  conference:  https://livestream.com/accounts/207122/gc2019

Big vote this afternoon... wow, what will happen?

[MarblesMom]

Not real thrilled with what I am watching... apparently there is a motion, that has been seconded, to lump homosexuals, divorced folks, remarried folks and polygamists all into an unacceptable category...  staying tuned to see what happens next...

[Evangeline]

5 minutes ago, MarblesMom said:

Not real thrilled with what I am watching... apparently there is a motion, that has been seconded, to lump homosexuals, divorced folks, remarried folks and polygamists all into an unacceptable category...  staying tuned to see what happens next...

Yeah, good luck with that, folks. That would rule out half the membership AND a lot of the clergy. Not real worried about that passing, but still. 

[RosyDaisy]

Wow.. just...wow. So much for following the examples of Christ.

 

 

[MarblesMom]

The Amendment FAILS!!!  

[RosyDaisy]

Hallelujah, Praise Jesus!

[MarblesMom]

Traditional plan passed... hmmm.....

[Coconut Flan]

1 hour ago, MarblesMom said:

Not real thrilled with what I am watching... apparently there is a motion, that has been seconded, to lump homosexuals, divorced folks, remarried folks and polygamists all into an unacceptable category...  staying tuned to see what happens next...

Open doors, open hearts, open minds my Aunt Fanny.  

ETA:  since the motion failed that's good news, but the bad news is that there are enough bigots hanging out to have the motion exist.

[AuntKrazy]

Other troubling news today - the SBC announced that there was no need to continue to investigate 7 of the 10 churches involved in the recent allegations.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Southern-Baptist-leaders-quickly-clear-7-13643282.php

 

[MarblesMom]

Yeah, I am thinking the "All Are Welcome" mat at the front door needs some editing... perhaps some member will sneak in with some masking tape and add in "unless you don't fit into our narrow minded little box, in which case you can fuck right off" 

I am very disappointed right now.

[AuntKrazy]

From my understanding, a good portion of the UMC special session delegates are from countries with stricter "morality" laws than the United States, as membership of the UMC has greater representation now in other parts of the globe other than the US.

I am not saying I agree with the decision; but it is one of the problems with the actual attempt to resolve everything for every congregation in the same way.