Baptists & Decades of Sexual Abuse

[Lisafer]

45 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Not sure what the RPCNA is, but RCA is hardly apostate, it wholeheartedly believes in the Apostles Creed.

Oh no, I wasn't trying to say it WAS apostate, I was saying it would be regarded that way by some in the RPCNA because of doctrinal differences! Sorry I wasn't clear--I don't mean any offense to your beliefs. 

RPCNA is Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America.

[SilverBeach]

4 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

Oh no, I wasn't trying to say it WAS apostate, I was saying it would be regarded that way by some in the RPCNA because of doctrinal differences! Sorry I wasn't clear--I don't mean any offense to your beliefs. 

RPCNA is Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America.

I'm not in an RCA church anymore, I resigned. No offense to my beliefs at all, I didn't believe in a lot of the crap anyway, like being anti non cishet people.

[Lisafer]

Just now, SilverBeach said:

I'm not in an RCA church anymore, I resigned. No offense to my beliefs at all, I didn't believe in a lot of the crap anyway, like being anti non cishet people.

Good. I did find something that wonderfully illustrates the splits and connections in Presbyterianism: keep in mind that some of these splits would have been over something that an outsider would have considered "minor," and yet Presbyterians historically seem to have a tendency to split rather than merge. This diagram shows what happens when Calvinist Presbyterians start arguing...

Spoiler

 

[SilverBeach]

I hate how militant some Christians can be towards each other, and so lacking in grace.  That many splits is ridiculous. That's why so many in the world don't take Christians seriously.

[Evangeline]

I spent a brief amount of time at one of the US' most prominent Reformed churches. The arrogance was staggering. It did not escape me that it was also overwhelmingly white and wealthy, and many of the members were politically well-connected. I do not think this is any kind of coincidence. Calvinists are arrogant as fuck because their theology teaches them that they are specially chosen by God to not only receive salvation but also to benefit from wealth and privilege on earth. I know they deny this, but it became very clear, very quickly that it's what they believe deep down. 

[Walking Cat Bed]

1 hour ago, Lisafer said:

Good. I did find something that wonderfully illustrates the splits and connections in Presbyterianism: keep in mind that some of these splits would have been over something that an outsider would have considered "minor," and yet Presbyterians historically seem to have a tendency to split rather than merge. This diagram shows what happens when Calvinist Presbyterians start arguing...

  Hide contents

 

The Reformed Presbyterians in the USA are...interesting. Baptist College hosted their annual conference (which it doesn't look like they're having anymore -- maybe another split?) and I got to "help" through a few summers. Mostly I wore jeans instead of shorts and a fake-engagement ring, because some of their young unmarried men were thirsty enough that they'd try to "fix" a heathen (i.e., any other kind of Christian) because the only unmarried women they knew in the denomination were their sisters. 

[SilverBeach]

57 minutes ago, Evangeline said:

I spent a brief amount of time at one of the US' most prominent Reformed churches. The arrogance was staggering. It did not escape me that it was also overwhelmingly white and wealthy, and many of the members were politically well-connected. I do not think this is any kind of coincidence. Calvinists are arrogant as fuck because their theology teaches them that they are specially chosen by God to not only receive salvation but also to benefit from wealth and privilege on earth. I know they deny this, but it became very clear, very quickly that it's what they believe deep down. 

Do tell the church. Was it in DC?

Like I said upthread, not all members of reformed churches know they are supposed to be the chosen ones. I see a lot of arrogance in Arminian leaning churches too. They think they are special also, the truly "saved". Of course, not all Calvinists are like you are saying, I met many sincere and humble ones. There was no prosperity gospel teaching at my former church, that's more of an Arminian thing in my experience. I attended Arminian churches most of my life. I agree with the overwhelmingly white and if not wealthy, certainly not poor.

[older than allosaurs]

2 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Where's Lynden? I don't profess to be an expert on all reformed denominations, my actual experience is limited to Christian Reformed and Reformed Church in America, which I know were one denomination at one time. Not too many black people in either one, I was somewhat unique.

Lynden is on the Canadian border north of Seattle. It's dairy farming country and heavily populated by Dutch immigrants from the Holstein-Frisian area. Some of the churches had services in Dutch well into the 1950s. I'll can well imagine you were a rarity. I know a couple of Dutch farm families who, like me, adopted black children in the 1980s, and one told me they had to pull their kids from the Christian School because the racism was just too much. I met some really lovely people there, who took their religion seriously and were still open to friendship with a heathen such as me. I also met some of the most uptight, judgmental, appearance-obsessed folks I have ever encountered in a long life.

This webpage gives a rundown, schism by schism, of one of the American Reformed Denominations. They won't ever be a mega-church, that's for certain.

https://lyndenchurch.com/our-history/

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

5 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

I hate how militant some Christians can be towards each other, and so lacking in grace.  That many splits is ridiculous. That's why so many in the world don't take Christians seriously.

(my bold)

I generally agree that that many splits is ridiculous, but some of the splits in the diagram @Lisafer posted were over the American Civil War; some churches were abolitionist and pro-Union, while other churches were pro-slavery and pro-Confederacy. (I'm sorry but I can't cite which ones.) Some things are worthy splitting over, in my opinion. In general though, I agree with you. 

[Lisafer]

3 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I generally agree that that many splits is ridiculous, but some of the splits in the diagram @Lisafer posted were over the American Civil War; some churches were abolitionist and pro-Union, while other churches were pro-slavery and pro-Confederacy. (I'm sorry but I can't cite which ones.) Some things are worthy splitting over, in my opinion. In general though, I agree with you. 

I totally agree that splitting over things like slavery is justified. Splitting over theology quibbles, which happened often, is interesting and amusing at the same time!

Also, it's my understanding that Baptists have church splits too...but Presbys have a central authority, so it's a big deal when a group splits off and defies the Synod or Presbytery. I can't really speak to Baptists, as I don't know as much about their history.

[FundieCentral]

This is what google showed me. I believe the “Indendend Bible Churches” above all the conventional Baptists are the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches (IFB) that usually advocate skirts only, often head coverings for women, no modern music, KJV only and so on.

[formergothardite]

5 minutes ago, FundieCentral said:

Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches (IFB) that usually advocate skirts only, often head coverings for women, no modern music, KJV only and so on.

I've never seen an IFB who advocated for head coverings. I'm sure there are some who do but it isn't common in my area. 

[SilverBeach]

5 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I generally agree that that many splits is ridiculous, but some of the splits in the diagram @Lisafer posted were over the American Civil War; some churches were abolitionist and pro-Union, while other churches were pro-slavery and pro-Confederacy. (I'm sorry but I can't cite which ones.) Some things are worthy splitting over, in my opinion. In general though, I agree with you. 

Methodists and Baptists also split over the civil war.  I think being open and affirming is worth splitting over also. These matters go to the heart of recognizing the humanity of all people. But every little theological disagreement regarding how many angels can fit on the head of a pin? Seems ridiculous to me. Folks ought to understand that trying to nail down the absolute truth about God is an impossible task.

[CTRLZero]

That's an interesting chart.  I wonder who put it together.  See, for example, "United Pentecostal Church (cult)."  Is that how they label themselves?

[Hane]

3 hours ago, FundieCentral said:

This is what google showed me. I believe the “Indendend Bible Churches” above all the conventional Baptists are the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches (IFB) that usually advocate skirts only, often head coverings for women, no modern music, KJV only and so on.

*taps foot* No mention of Unitarianism or Universalism.

[jjmennonite]

There are about 80 different kinds of Mennonites, as well, including those who still use only horses and buggies for transportation. My parents left the ‘one true church’ when I was about 5, and about half their siblings and my cousins are still members. Head coverings for the women, beards for the men, but they do use cars and tractors. 

I went on a volunteer trip with Mennonite Disaster Service, in 2011, to Mississippi, and as a single woman, (in my 50s) I was housed with a bunch of delightful young women, mostly 19, who were from a no cars type of Mennonite. 

There were a bunch of guys from two small towns in Alberta, just 20 kilometres apart, and each had a separate church. We were hanging drywall one day, and I asked why two such small places each had their own church, and a guy replied: ‘We immerse and they sprinkle’. We all laughed. 

There is lots of intermarriage between Mennonite sects, and they accept each other’s salvation, except for the ‘One True Church’ . Of course the group from Pennsylvania had not come to Mississippi in a buggy. They hire other Mennonites, with vans, for transportation. 

[Hane]

16 minutes ago, jjmennonite said:

 

There were a bunch of guys from two small towns in Alberta, just 20 kilometres apart, and each had a separate church. We were hanging drywall one day, and I asked why two such small places each had their own church, and a guy replied: ‘We immerse and they sprinkle’. We all laughed. 

By comparison, not far from me is a church that’s a merging of Baptist and Congregational. I asked a member how they managed baptisms, and she said it was a matter of each family’s personal choice. I found that refreshing.

[FundieCentral]

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I’ve never seen an IFB who advocated for head coverings. I'm sure there are some who do but it isn't common in my area. 

That’s fair, I’m sure there are further traditions even within such churches that nominally belong to the same denomination. The one that I know a little bit does not require head covering for women, but a few women wear it, at least in church, often some sort of bandana/shawl. Independent as they are, I’m sure every church has their own guidelines as to the dress code. 

[SilverBeach]

My former RCA church did whatever you wanted with respect to baptism, it was quite liberal in that regard.

[hoipolloi]

56 minutes ago, Hane said:

*taps foot* No mention of Unitarianism or Universalism.

First thing I noticed, too.

Raised UU here and just so you know, we liberal religious thinkers (anti-Trinitarians) have been around since the 16th century. 

ETA: Great discussion -- I'm learning a lot -- and those charts are helpful!

[SilverBeach]

8 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

First thing I noticed, too.

Raised UU here and just so you know, we liberal religious thinkers (anti-Trinitarians) have been around since the 16th century. 

ETA: Great discussion -- I'm learning a lot -- and those charts are helpful!

I briefly attended my local UU gathering before joining my former church. For six years now, it has kept me on the mailing list. I am seriously considering returning. UU beliefs are useful for having a better world, and hurt no one.

[Hane]

@SilverBeach, you would be welcome. A big problem with the UU is that we try to work against racism, but are a majority-white denomination. We try to be inclusive, but as it was famously said, “Sunday morning is the most segregated time in US society.” 

[EmiGirl]

11 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I generally agree that that many splits is ridiculous, but some of the splits in the diagram @Lisafer posted were over the American Civil War; some churches were abolitionist and pro-Union, while other churches were pro-slavery and pro-Confederacy. (I'm sorry but I can't cite which ones.) Some things are worthy splitting over, in my opinion. In general though, I agree with you. 

The most recent split of the PCA and PC(USA) was over LGBT issues. The PCA is really conservative whereas the PCUSA is LGBT and female affirming.

[Evangeline]

17 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Do tell the church. Was it in DC?

Like I said upthread, not all members of reformed churches know they are supposed to be the chosen ones. I see a lot of arrogance in Arminian leaning churches too. They think they are special also, the truly "saved". Of course, not all Calvinists are like you are saying, I met many sincere and humble ones. There was no prosperity gospel teaching at my former church, that's more of an Arminian thing in my experience. I attended Arminian churches most of my life. I agree with the overwhelmingly white and if not wealthy, certainly not poor.

I'll PM you about the church. 

No, I don't believe every member of any group is a certain way, and the new Calvinists are a special breed of arrogant that may not resemble the old-school type. In the last 12 or so years, I've encountered a shitload of Jeremy Vuolo types, which this church was crawling with. I do think the theology is a big part of it. It's not prosperity gospel, which is annoying enough. It's a very political theology, designed to keep white, wealthy men at the top of the heap as God (in their view) intended. I'm.... not a fan, to put it mildly. 

[Briefly]

9 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Methodists and Baptists also split over the civil war.  I think being open and affirming is worth splitting over also. These matters go to the heart of recognizing the humanity of all people. But every little theological disagreement regarding how many angels can fit on the head of a pin? Seems ridiculous to me. Folks ought to understand that trying to nail down the absolute truth about God is an impossible task.

I was typing away and my computer fritzed, my comment disappeared and it took me off the internet completely. However, if the comment did post partially then please ignore it!  I'm going to try again.  The issue is that my mouse slid across the mousepad and ran into the tv remote, which apparently was enough for my computer to think I'd clicked something.  Anyway.

I think the United Methodist church may be heading for a split and it will be over LGTBQ issues.  While we were still attending SBC churches, there was a lot in the news about UM churches ordaining LGTBQ pastors and also some UM churches allowed same-sex weddings.  There were several UM pastors that sent a letter to the Tulsa paper and they endorsed equality, including same-sex marriage.  At the time, there was a lot about how the UM governing body was investigating and would issue a report after they completed their investigation.  That was several years ago.  As far as I can tell, they never finished their investigation.  One of the specific reasons I wanted out of the SBC (there were many reasons) was their stance on equality or lack thereof. When I went back to the UM church, the sermon given on the day I actually re-joined was about equality and how humans are all deserving of equality, and that included skin color, religious belief, sexual orientation as not being any reason to judge or mistreat anybody. This church is one where the pastor was one of the signatories on the letter affirming their belief in equality.  A couple of weeks ago, the church had a regular meeting (I wasn't able to go, unfortunately) and one of the items to be discussed was what the churches stance would be going forward on issues like equality.  My church will not waver, it will stand up for equality and I am very happy about that.  But the church (and many others) will be going against the UM governing body.  It's going to be interesting, to say the least.  And it may well mean another split.

4 hours ago, EmiGirl said:

The most recent split of the PCA and PC(USA) was over LGBT issues. The PCA is really conservative whereas the PCUSA is LGBT and female affirming.

At least one Tulsa area Presbyterian church split from the PCA and is now PCUSA.  There was a court case about the property and the church had to basically buy the property from the PCA - even though they owned it already.