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Counting On Season 8/9/10 2: How low will they go? (CW: Miscarriage)


Coconut Flan

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@AtlanticTug while I totally agree with your last comment above, there is one area where I disagree. The Seewalds work on the show, so they do have income and should be able to spend it as they see fit. The Dillards, OTOH, have not had an income, that we know of,  for nearly 2 years, and have been spending fairly liberally (tuition for Derick’s numerous dreams).

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8 hours ago, singsingsing said:

My class went on a field trip to the local market when I was in kindergarten or grade one.

My preschool class went to a field trip to the grocery store. We saw a butcher cut up a chicken carcass. Up until that point, I thought "chicken" was one of those words in English that has mutliple meanings. I didn't know I was eating a dead animal--and I was horrified. 

I went home and told my parents I'd never eat chicken again. For the rest of my childhood, I refused to eat chicken. My mom was furious at the preschool for showing us that. My parents also continued to feed me chicken, they just told me it was other stuff (up until I was old enough to spot the difference). 

Anyway, to this day I don't eat a lot of chicken. And it's also might explain why I'm a flexatarian/semi-vegetarian. 

4 hours ago, CaricatureQualities said:

Did anyone else find it pretentious when Jeremy said his fave movie was a beautiful mind?

I was just pleased to hear someone mention a mainstream movie that came out sometime after 1960.

(Not that there's anything wrong with old movies, just that the Duggars supposedly only allow certain older movies). 

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From a culinary standpoint, Austria is a pretty bad travel destination for someone who doesn't eat gluten. Not that there isn't a ton of gluten-free food in Austria, but most of the famous Austrian dishes you would probably want to try as a first-time visitor do contain gluten: Wiener Schnitzel (which is breaded veal), Sachertorte (cake), alllll the sweets like Kaiserschmarrn, Apfelstrudel, Germknödel, Palatschinken, etc. I'll put some pictures of delicious Austrian food under the spoiler for your viewing pleasure.

Spoiler

wiener-wiaz-haus.jpg

Wiener Schnitzel

Spoiler

sachertorte-img-2269.jpg

Sachertorte

Spoiler

Kaiserschmarren-kaiserschmarren.jpg?itok

Kaiserschmarrn

Spoiler

recipe-apfelstrudel-aus-blaetterteig.jpg

Apfelstrudel

I feel bad for Lauren that she wasn't able to enjoy any of these delicious foods. Of course, if they had gone to Austria for another specific reason - say, for the music, or the art, or the history - I'm sure they would have had an amazing time even with her dietary restrictions. But since they really didn't seem to care about anything, their honeymoon seems like a complete waste to me. They probably would have had a much better time if they'd just gone to Disney World in Orlando.

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Possibly unpopular opinion: Sachertorte is way overrated, and not that great. 

The best Austrian food is their hotdogs. And Wiener schnitzel. 

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2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

@AtlanticTug while I totally agree with your last comment above, there is one area where I disagree. The Seewalds work on the show, so they do have income and should be able to spend it as they see fit. The Dillards, OTOH, have not had an income, that we know of,  for nearly 2 years, and have been spending fairly liberally (tuition for Derick’s numerous dreams).

Honestly, though, we don’t know if the seewalds do have an income. We’ve never seen the receipts.  Maybe they get paid to be on the show but maybe not. Ever since I learned that Bachelor contestants aren’t paid, I’ve been more inclined to believe derricks “volunteers” assertion, at least re: the individual children. (Though I am sure Jim bob is *somehow* getting paid). Maybe both Jessa and Jill are living off trust funds that jb set up for them off the family show money. Or maybe both of them are living beyond their means and relying on support from their families. We know veryyy little about their finances. I don’t think it’s fair to assume Jill is living so far beyond her means and the seewalds are not when we don’t know about either of their “means”.

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Okay so the wink wink of the honeymoon talk was unsurprising but I actually laughed when Kendra was like "I think theyll figure out how to enjoy their honeymoon". Did not expect her to be the one to say it. 

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Josiah's comment about continued restrictions actually makes a lot of sense with the way he was raised. Even as a young man in the cult, he had so few decisions and many of them were false choices. Now he is expected to be the "head" of the family and make all the choices and provide (theoretically). It would probably be very disorienting to all of a sudden have control after your whole life was dictated to you, so it makes sense he'd still reach for restrictions. 

I had a friend in high school from a very conservative, strict, LDS family. She and I went to the same college and she started drinking coffee and soda for the first time and loved it. The sudden freedom and the realization that not everything she'd been taught was bad was actually bad was like a switch for her. Within a few months she was smoking pot all the time and not going to classes. She's totally fine now 10+ years later, successful but not religious or conservative, but it was a little concerning at the time to see her change so drastically so quickly. Nothing to anything when you've never made your own choices before is a big jump. 

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10 hours ago, picklepizzas said:

Honestly, though, we don’t know if the seewalds do have an income. We’ve never seen the receipts.  Maybe they get paid to be on the show but maybe not. Ever since I learned that Bachelor contestants aren’t paid, I’ve been more inclined to believe derricks “volunteers” assertion, at least re: the individual children. (Though I am sure Jim bob is *somehow* getting paid). Maybe both Jessa and Jill are living off trust funds that jb set up for them off the family show money. Or maybe both of them are living beyond their means and relying on support from their families. We know veryyy little about their finances. I don’t think it’s fair to assume Jill is living so far beyond her means and the seewalds are not when we don’t know about either of their “means”.

If you haven’t read it already, there is an interesting conversation about this topic in the current Dillard thread.

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12 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

Possibly unpopular opinion: Sachertorte is way overrated, and not that great. 

The best Austrian food is their hotdogs. And Wiener schnitzel. 

I agree...... German/Austrian hotdogs are miles above ours. And Wiener Schnitzel is one the the best things I have ever eaten. 

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TRIGGER:Miscarriage warning. Oookay skip this first part if you're uninterested in a long-ish personal story with pregnancy/labor/miscarriage. I've avoided this forum for a few months, because I had a miscarriage in October, and because there's so many pregnancies and labors/deliveries around here. I'm not sure how far along Lauren was. I was 10 weeks. Baby had passed away for 3 weeks before we discovered it on ultrasound, with no signs or warnings anything was wrong. I had to do D/C surgery. Then I spent the next 2 months with lingering pregnancy symptoms without a viable pregnancy. I hadn't announced anything yet. I almost wish I had though.

My husband and I then announced the already passed away baby, to my MIL, FIL, my 3 SILs. I have a small family, only one brother who doesn't really talk to me and wouldn't understand anyway. My mom and dad - my dad whom I don't get along with - and I have one friend who lives many states away and those are all my people I have. SIL 1 I talked to once every week - she had a miscarriage before so I really thought talking to her would help. But instead, she told me when she was really sad she let herself have a few days, then told herself to get over it. And got over it. So I just felt worse after that, like she didn't understand how I felt either. And that she felt I should just get over it too. She stopped calling, hasn't called me since October. SIL 2 has 3 healthy children with no complications, and had her last healthy pregnancy and labor at age 42. SIL 3 has no children or desire.

After telling everyone, well, no one ever reached out again. No one has called to see how I am, texted, nothing. When we went to visit my FIL and MIL a month later - they never talked about it, and then changed the subject anytime I brought it up. I just began feeling nobody cared. I still feel that way. I still feel devastated and even more isolated than before. The happy part: I became pregnant again in December. The not so happy part is that I'm a wreck. I've had life threatening placenta accreta with two pregnancies before. I'm afraid I'm going to die. This baby has a blood clot right beside it. I've been put on high risk, the baby might not make it to full term, they may have to take the baby at 34 weeks if not before. But when that happens, even if the baby isn't able to survive yet, I will more than likely need a life saving hysterectomy so I don't bleed to death. I've almost bled to death twice before. But even after telling the family this news - they don't call, nobody asks how I am. NOBODY CARES. 

*****DUGGAR PART BEGINS. 

What first interested me in the Duggars is the support system. I thought - wow - wouldn't it be nice to have that many people who cared about me? To have close sisters and brothers? To have a close sibling to talk to and maybe a close sister who understood me. Now obviously without thinking about the big negatives, Michelle and Boob don't have enough time and energy for everyone. They've taken it to the extreme basically. But I used to think, because I'm so lonely and isolated in my life, it would be nice to have a big family who cared. And if one didn't care then maybe one of the other many would care. I guess that translated to my wanting 4 or 5 kids. I have 3. But I am totally isolated when husband is at work. I have no help, no babysitters, don't have a lot of money, no daycare. And they are so close together all 3 were in diapers at one point. At least once a day I feel like I'm having a nervous breakdown. And I'm a patient person. I hit my limits often. I can imagine that if I kept going like Michelle did - she would find a coping strategy of disassociating or hit a breaking point. The only thing that keeps me going in my lonely, long days of crap wiping, food making, and constant cleaning is that one day it will all get better and they can do more on their own. Michelle and Boob just waited until the older ones could watch the younger ones and then stopped parenting as much.

As for the miscarriage - I can see how it might seem that it is being exploited. But obviously they were excited and thought nothing would go wrong, as most of us do who have situations like that. I think Lauren could have expressed wanting it to be cut out of the footage, but I suspect not because miscarriages are extremely isolating. It was for me, and still is. So maybe she wants the support. And you have to remember - some people, myself included, already saw their baby as a formed being. (I think mine was farther along but still) So to discount or not mention a baby who went to heaven I think would feel more upsetting to them. Even though nobody else counts my fourth pregnancy as my fourth baby, or cares or thinks about it, I DO. So maybe Lauren wanted the support, and the recognition of her baby. Or maybe she had no say and it was all production. 

I seem to remember that Michelle and Boob said that their first miscarriage after taking birth control pills was a punishment from God? This deeply disturbs me. Is Lauren's miscarriage a punishment? Was mine? When labor goes wrong and a baby is stillborn, is that a punishment? When I nearly bled to death twice in labor is that a punishment? If something goes horribly terribly wrong, and if a baby is still living but not viable outside the womb, but ongoing the pregnancy will kill the mother is that punishment? Should the mother and baby both die instead? WHAT OF THAT DUGGARS? And if I have a life saving hysterectomy instead of possibly bleeding to death is that a punishment since bearing children is being taken away? And why do some people have many miscarriages, do they deserve it? Do I deserve nearly dying in childbirth? What about my special needs son? What of that? Since the Duggars have had 19 pregnancies and childbirths and nearly all healthy children, and Michelle has come out unscathed do they have the right to look down on us who get crapped on with horrible childbearing luck?

Is it really GOD punishing us Boobs or is it you looking down because you're so scared that bad things happen to good people and there's no rhyme or reason. What about your daughters with complicated labors? What have they sinned so badly that they needed to be punished? And Lauren's miscarriage? I'm sure she faithfully obeyed and STILL GOT THE CRAP END OF THE STICK. Some of us eat healthy, take our vitamins and do everything we possibly can and still have a miscarriage or almost die in childbirth, sometimes babies die in childbirth. Sometimes babies get SIDS and die. And it's so cruel and unfair. The only thing that's gotten me through anything is believing that a Father in heaven wouldn't want anyone to suffer, he wouldn't want anyone to die. It's the world that is imperfect. And the world is unfair. This isn't heaven. If you do good you don't get rewards or if you do bad you don't get punishments here on earth, sorry. Michelle and Boob are delusional if they think they are being REWARDED, although they've been extremely lucky to have so many LIVING children, and that Michelle and the daughters have survived all those births. 

Because if I believed God punishes me, well then I've been punished more than I can bear and I would be angry with him every single day and feel even more alone than I already do.

I'm sorry for this super long rant.  And I also want to thank FJ for being here, because it helps me feel less alone and I hope I didn't come off like a crazy person. I'm just so frustrated. 

 

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As someone who is constantly inspired by books, movies, and TV shows when I'm producing my own work, I find the "stifling creativity" line to be bullshit. Do they think creativity exists in a vacuum? Do they think that any idea that's not completely original is not truly creative? It is my belief that no media is completely original, and always has some small influence from other media. His goal wasn't to encourage creativity, he wanted to stifle it. He wanted to narrow their worldview and brainwash them.

What a bunch of liars.

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@shock928- I am sorry for your loss. As to why people don’t reach out or bring up your loss, I’ve learned the hard way that you never know what or how anyone will respond or often times react, to a comment or message. So, the safest thing to do is to say nothing. Terrible, but words can be triggering to some, and the absolute last thing most people want to do is to trigger another person. 

In terms of the Duggars, IMO, their shear numbers prevent close bonds and relationships, no matter how much they attempt to push how they are each other’s BFF. I think most of those 2 nd generation Duggars evidence a pretty great lack of empathy, compassion and concern. Personally, I think how they were raised, and particularly how their parents withheld opportunities and experiences with others at key developmental stages, stunted and muted normal feelings towards others. Other than the fact that none of the adults need to work or provide for themselves, which obviously decreases stress, I would not envy one part of those adult kids’ lives. IMO, I doubt many of those couples will fully live their lives without eventually having it all crash down, especially if they keep popping out kid after kid, and most will not have the skills or experiences needed to successfully navigate such an event.

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53 minutes ago, shock928 said:

Because if I believed God punishes me, well then I've been punished more than I can bear and I would be angry with him every single day and feel even more alone than I already do.

I'm so sorry for what you've gone through. You are not alone, even if people dont openly talk about it its more likely that they are doing it because they are uncomfortable and dont know how to react.  

I do not believe in a god that punishes babies for the sins of their parents.  I cannot believe in an all powerful, omnipotent being that created the universe sitting in an armchair, eating popcorn, and smiting people at a whim.  Life isnt fair.  The good suffer sometimes and the evil doers succeed.  There is no rhyme or reason, just random intersections of events.  Anyone who judges another for suffering a tragedy can suck it, because they have just been lucky and luck can change.

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My grandfather was stationed in Germany right in the aftermath of WWII. My whole life and of course long before it, he has raved about this amazing Wiener Schnitzel that he enjoyed there. Naturally, it's on my bucket list to one day have one for myself. 

My sympathies to you @shock928, I'm currently walking through what we suspect is a missed miscarriage as well. I went to the doctor on Friday and it's not looking like we have a heartbeat. We go back this Friday to confirm. I'm having a hard time, but I'm thankful we're now in a culture that is more comfortable discussing these things in the open. It is helping me with the grieving process and I don't feel as isolated even as I did when I had one six years ago. Hugs to you. 

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33 minutes ago, lizzybee said:

My sympathies to you @shock928, I'm currently walking through what we suspect is a missed miscarriage as well. I went to the doctor on Friday and it's not looking like we have a heartbeat. We go back this Friday to confirm. I'm having a hard time, but I'm thankful we're now in a culture that is more comfortable discussing these things in the open. It is helping me with the grieving process and I don't feel as isolated even as I did when I had one six years ago. Hugs to you. 

I'm sorry to hear this. I hope that everything turns out okay and that you have a loving support system there for you. It's difficult to hear about miscarriages more in the open and on TV, but it makes me feel a little better too actually because I'd hate for women to suffer in silence and feel that they shouldn't talk about it. Thanks for sharing this, and I'm sorry :(

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Love and warm thoughts to those of you struggling with losses.

For anyone looking to be supportive of a friend or family member going through something, a good general rule of thumb is that if someone shares something emotional/personal with you like a loss or their infertility story or maybe a past abuse they endured or a health condition they're going through, then they want to talk about it with you.

If you don't know what to say, just say that you feel for them and you don't know what to say but you want to be there for them. Ask them "would you like me to keep checking in with you?" or "how can I let you know I'm here for you without overwhelming you?"

The next trick is to set a reminder for yourself. You might want to just set a monthly calendar reminder so that you can text them that you're thinking of them and ask if they'd like to chat about the loss or if they'd like to catch up on other things instead that day.

I recommend using text-based communication so that they don't have to control their emotions. Sending a card ahead of a friend's due date for a miscarriage or the anniversary of the loss would almost certainly be appreciated. They are already thinking of it. If you don't know if they'd like that, ask them: "do you prefer to talk about your miscarriage or would you rather we talk about other things and you can bring it up if you want to talk about it." I've even found it helpful to try and pick up on how they refer to the loss. Are they saying their baby is up in heaven or saying they lost a pregnancy or had a miscarriage. I try and use the same language they do.

One friend of mine had two unplanned pregnancies that she lost. I did a really bad job supporting her, partly because I knew the situations weren't great when she became pregnant and she had some relief in the midst of her grief and physical pain. Now I know that she likes to be recognized during the annual infant loss month with a simple acknowledgement.

 It's really hard being supportive in difficult situations. Saying you don't know what to do is a great start. Once you find the balance between never talking about it and never talking about anything else which your friend indicates they want, you will be a positive support.

I love this podcast episode on the Right and Wrong Things to Say: https://gretchenrubin.com/podcast-episode/happier-140-vse-things-to-say

The woman interviewed has a line of empathy cards which are fantastic: https://emilymcdowell.com/collections/empathy-cards

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28 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

@shock928 Sending you hugs (if you want them) and healing thoughts.  I wish I could come by and hold a baby and talk over some tea. :hug:

I would love that! I think in my past life I was British (probably because my heritage IS British lol) so I love tea and hugs haha.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to read it and reply. Also- I love the Wiener schnitzel talk, this place is awesome. I’ve always wanted to go to Austria. And well anywhere in Europe really, I’m game. I do think it’s a little comical the honeymoons where they venture outside of the country, and I think producers play it up a bit that most of the couples are confused/amazed/astonished at other cultures, beliefs and ways of life!

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5 hours ago, theotherelise said:

Love and warm thoughts to those of you struggling with losses.

For anyone looking to be supportive of a friend or family member going through something, a good general rule of thumb is that if someone shares something emotional/personal with you like a loss or their infertility story or maybe a past abuse they endured or a health condition they're going through, then they want to talk about it with you.

If you don't know what to say, just say that you feel for them and you don't know what to say but you want to be there for them. Ask them "would you like me to keep checking in with you?" or "how can I let you know I'm here for you without overwhelming you?"

The next trick is to set a reminder for yourself. You might want to just set a monthly calendar reminder so that you can text them that you're thinking of them and ask if they'd like to chat about the loss or if they'd like to catch up on other things instead that day.

I recommend using text-based communication so that they don't have to control their emotions. Sending a card ahead of a friend's due date for a miscarriage or the anniversary of the loss would almost certainly be appreciated. They are already thinking of it. If you don't know if they'd like that, ask them: "do you prefer to talk about your miscarriage or would you rather we talk about other things and you can bring it up if you want to talk about it." I've even found it helpful to try and pick up on how they refer to the loss. Are they saying their baby is up in heaven or saying they lost a pregnancy or had a miscarriage. I try and use the same language they do.

One friend of mine had two unplanned pregnancies that she lost. I did a really bad job supporting her, partly because I knew the situations weren't great when she became pregnant and she had some relief in the midst of her grief and physical pain. Now I know that she likes to be recognized during the annual infant loss month with a simple acknowledgement.

 It's really hard being supportive in difficult situations. Saying you don't know what to do is a great start. Once you find the balance between never talking about it and never talking about anything else which your friend indicates they want, you will be a positive support.

I love this podcast episode on the Right and Wrong Things to Say: https://gretchenrubin.com/podcast-episode/happier-140-vse-things-to-say

The woman interviewed has a line of empathy cards which are fantastic: https://emilymcdowell.com/collections/empathy-cards

Great advice, thank you. 

It's not the same as a miscarriage, but when and even now with my father having Stage 4 cancer, I know who my friends and family are. I've found out with much added heartbreak, I don't have the people there for me that I thought I did. It's lonely. It's very, very hard.

My love to everyone here who needs it. ??

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On 2/19/2019 at 2:43 AM, AstridM said:

It's a joy to change a diaper???

I knew someone would comment on this and I’ll speak up in Jinger’s defense here. I know it seems weird, but there are people who do honestly take joy in diaper changes. For me it was originally because my daughter was a preemie who was born after I experienced an early miscarriage. I really did take joy in her diaper changes because I knew just how incredibly lucky we were to even have a healthy child. My early loss taught us that a healthy child is no guarantee. So did my daughter’s premature birth - we had to walk past micropreemies to visit our daughter in NICU and we weren’t able to move more than a few feet with her because of the wires attached to her. That kind of experience changed how I viewed the less than fun parts of parenthood. Things that other parents take for granted were things I really tried to savor as much as I could because I missed out on getting to be her main caretaker for that first week of her life. My daughter is two now and I still mostly savor her diaper changes because we don’t know if we’ll be able to have another child or not - it’s been five months of trying, I have a recurring issue that makes conceiving tougher than it is for many women, and fertility is fickle. 

We don’t know what reasons Jinger might have, but I’d guess it’s because getting to change Felicity’s diapers means she’s achieved her life goal of becoming a mother. 

(And I feel like that came across as angry or bitchy, which wasn’t my intention. I just wanted to add a different point of view.)

@shock928 I’m so sorry for everything you’re going through. If it helps a few of us have had losses on here as well. If you ever need to vent or talk just send me a message. We also have a clubs on the site for people who are pregnant and for those trying to conceive. You can request to be added to those if you want - they can be a pretty helpful and supportive place for many users.

As for your current pregnancy, my daughter was unexpectedly born at 34 weeks and I also know someone who had her son at 32 weeks just last summer. Both our babies had NICU stays (one week for mine and six weeks for my friend’s son), but both are also pretty healthy now too. It’s far from ideal and can still be a legitimately scary experience, but late-term preemies often do very well. If you’re up for it then I’d suggest looking through the March of Dimes website. They have information regarding premature birth that might help you prepare mentally and emotionally, as well as a forum where parents can share their experiences. And if you aren’t up for it that’s ok too. You can always discuss it with your Doctor instead. 

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Also re: Jinger's joy in changing Felicity: she mentioned that she had changed hundreds of diapers but these were her own child's which made it special.

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8 hours ago, MargaretElliott said:

As someone who is constantly inspired by books, movies, and TV shows when I'm producing my own work, I find the "stifling creativity" line to be bullshit. Do they think creativity exists in a vacuum? Do they think that any idea that's not completely original is not truly creative? It is my belief that no media is completely original, and always has some small influence from other media. His goal wasn't to encourage creativity, he wanted to stifle it. He wanted to narrow their worldview and brainwash them.

What a bunch of liars.

And it's not as though these kids were/are big readers or exposed to works of art or storytelling, either. So they can spare me their "stifling creativity" bullshit. They wanted drones and that's what they got. 

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1 hour ago, ViolaSebastian said:

And it's not as though these kids were/are big readers or exposed to works of art or storytelling, either. So they can spare me their "stifling creativity" bullshit. They wanted drones and that's what they got. 

amen. Stifling creativity. Please!  I just spent the past two months painting 40 paintings. 

It's about having a work ethic. 

and yes I am having an art show. 
You are all invited. March 2 and 3 HA - no need to rsvp 

:)

they need to reevaluate their lives. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, justmy2cents said:

Also re: Jinger's joy in changing Felicity: she mentioned that she had changed hundreds of diapers but these were her own child's which made it special.

cause imagine if she didn't find it special ?

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4 hours ago, Sky with diamonds said:

It's not the same as a miscarriage, but when and even now with my father having Stage 4 cancer, I know who my friends and family are. I've found out with much added heartbreak, I don't have the people there for me that I thought I did. It's lonely. It's very, very hard.

My love to everyone here who needs it. ??

I found out I had kidney cancer just before Christmas. I’m lucky, in that it was very small and the doctor was able to fully remove it in one surgery, so the only real concern I have to struggle with is how the hell I'm going to pay for it all. That said, there were some people I’d really expected to “be there” in terms of emotional support, and few of them really did. It’s been sobering, and kind of sad,  but it has made me appreciate the ones who’ve stepped up so much more.

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