Jana 8: Now with Instagram

[AliceInFundyland]

@adidas I don’t think those are bad reasons. Shared personal experiences are always okay.

Sweeping cultural comparisons  are what I have issue with

[Vivi_music]

On 2/14/2019 at 12:57 PM, Icea said:

This thread drift makes me feel like a fish out of water, because I’d say the only men in Sweden who are circumcised are jewish, muslim or did it for medical reasons. And I’m not sure if it’s even the majority of muslim and jewish men here. I’ve never heard anyone discuss the topic in Sweden because it’s so rare.

I am in the same boat as you. Circumcision is not something people even discuss here as a possible decision for their son; simply because it is not something that a lot of people do. It is very uncommon for baby boys to be circumsized in Québec. It seems to be the same for Mr. Music, who was raised and lived in France most of his life.

Because of that, I can't say I have a opinion on it much. I totally hear what other posters are saying about boys maybe feeling different, self-conscious or singled-out if they grow up in an society where it is culturally the norm. I bet here it would probably be the contrary. A cirumsized boy would certainly be questionned more by his peers.

I also tried to look for data online. I might be lazy or not know what website to search for, because I couldn't find any articles from scientific journals. But I did find one article from Radio-Canada (CBC) which is a reliable news network with trustworthy sources: (In French and dates from 2014) The article mentions only 3% of baby boys had neonatal circumcision. That seems pretty low. They seem to quote a doctor on that note. Source: http://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/661113/circoncision-bienfaits-sante

I also found this study, called the Canadian Maternity Experience Survey done but Public Health Agency of Canada published in 2009 and the data collected in 2006-2007. It mentions that only 12% of baby boys are circumsized in Québec compared to 44% and 43% in Alberta and Ontario respectively. Source: http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/rhs-ssg/pdf/tab-eng.pdf  page 267.

 

Edited February 16, 2019 by Vivi_music

[SweetJuly]

This is going to be long, but I would appreciate if you took the time to read through this.

Of course parents who circumcise their sons are not evil barbarians who like to inflict pain and torture on their children. Fortunately the overwhelming majority of parents love their children and want only the best for them.

As I mentioned before, I am Jewish. Even though I come from a rather secular family, circumcision was an integral part of my life growing up. It is one of the greatest mitzvot (religious obligations) of Judaism, being the first received by Abraham and every newborn Jewish male since then. Unlike some other mitzvot that can be ambiguous, this one is clearly spelled out in the Bible. All male relatives of mine (except for one, see shortly) were circumcised. Every brit milah was a cause for celebration and great pride and happiness. One of my uncles married a non-Jewish woman and their son was the only one who was not circumcised as infant. Despite having been raised culturally Jewish, he was not considered such (due to his mother not being Jewish), and decided to convert and seek circumcision in his early 20s in order to marry a woman from a conservative family. I remember long discussions within the family about this. I also remember giving a presentation on Judaism in my highschool class in rural Germany and explaining (and what felt like defending) circumcision to a class of teenagers. I was very proud of the practice, and absolutely certain that any hypothetical sons of mine would be circumcised.

Then I moved back to Israel for military service and university. During my studies, I volunteered with a small charity that provided free sexual health advice (counselling, medical treatment). That was the first time I was confronted with botched/badly performed circumcisions. I especially remember a Jewish boy who had lost the glans, and two Muslim brothers who had such terrible scarring on their penises that they had lost basically all sensation and needed surgery to allow the tissue to expand when they went into puberty. I also met a number of Israeli guys who were not angry, but rather resentful about having been circumcised without their consent as babies. Now I know these medical cases are fortunately rather rare exceptions, and I know many FJers have friends or family members who are perfectly fine being circumcised. My own father is supremely happy as he is. What I am trying to show is what made me question a practice that had been integral to my sense of self ever since I could remember.

Coming from a medical family, I then set out on doing my research, trying to be as open-minded and unbiased as possible.

1) The foreskin

While some researchers imply that the foreskin in itself enhances sexual pleasure due to millions of present nerve receptors, a review of the literature seems to point to the foreskin not being an erogenous zone in itself, but serving protective and supportive functions such as:
protecting the developing penis in utero; protecting the glans from feces, abrasions, trauma and parasites; keeping the glans moist; providing sufficient skin during an erection; providing additional lubrication during intercourse; etc

It's safe to say that the foreskin is not "completely useless" as my father liked to claim.

The Wikipedia article on foreskin links to many related studies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreskin

2) Pain and psychological after-effects

A 1997 Canadian study found that babies who received no anesthesia for circumcision were in so much pain that it would be unethical to continue.  Even the best commonly available method of pain relief studied (dorsal penile nerve block) was insufficient. Some babies chocked due to the pain, one even had a seizure.

Another study found that the pain of circumcision heightens pain sensitivity of an infant.

According to other studies, circumcision also can cause post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and various psychological difficulties (depression, low self-esteem, problems with intimacy)

I find psychological effects tricky to determine and pinpoint on one experience in childhood, but the matter of pain experienced and remembered seems fairly clear.

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/lander/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731
http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/boyle6/
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1464-410x.1999.0830s1093.x

3) Desensitisation

Perception of pleasure is subjective. From what I understand, studies have been inconclusive on the matter due to this. My cousin who got circumcised in his 20s might well report that his sexual pleasure increased, but this could be due to psychological effects (finally belonging to a group of people, marrying his wife, etc)

It also appears that some studies claim that the glans will keratinise and have reduced sensitivity, whereas other studies found heightened sensitivity.

However, intact men will confirm that when asked to pull back the foreskin, any stimulus (such as underwear rubbing against it) will be unbearably unpleasant. An unprotected glans will logically desensitive over time, be it by drying out, keratinising or simple overstimulation. What certainly happens is that any circumcision, especially a badly performed one, will leave scar tissue that naturally has much reduced sensitivity.

It's a risky game, therefore, and in doubt I'd leave the penis of a newborn as it is, relying on nature as the best judge of what part of a healthy body is necessary or not.

I've not listed any studies here because there are loads that can be easily retrieved online.

4) Side effects of circumcision
It's important to remember that, when discussing medical benefits, we'd also need to take into account possible side effects of the operation such as adhesions, infections, meatal stenosis, and even death. Rare, but possible.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/240804903_Lost_Boys_An_Estimate_of_US_Circumcision-Related_Infant_Deaths

5) Medical benefits

Some studies appear to show some benefits such as a decreased risk of UTIs, some sexually transmitted diseases in men (HPV, HIV), and protection against penile cancer. Apparently there's some methodological issues with these studies, though, and they are not uncontroversial (much data derived from Sub-Saharan Africa).

Penile cancer is already a very rare cancer (less than 1 case per 100,000 person-years in Western countries), and even if the reported protection of circumcision is accurate it doesn't justify a preemptive mass amputation of the affected tissue on every child. If one truly wanted to bring down cancer rates, it would probably be a better solution to preemptively remove testicles in men and breasts in women, but nobody seems to be advocating for that ;)

Conservative treatments exist to deal with conditions such as UTIs or phimosis. It does appear that circumcision can help/cure boys who battle recurring UTIs, but this should be evaluated on an individual basis, not performed as a blanket surgery on every newborn boy.

And frankly, the benefits of good medical care, improved genital hygiene, vaccines (HPV), and safe sex far outweigh whatever advantage a circumcision may provide.

Examples of studies - there's loads of others that can be easily retrieved:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4364150/
https://adc.bmj.com/content/90/8/773
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3139859/

TL;DR:
For me the scientific evidence is very clear in that the benefits of male circumcision do not outweigh the risks and harm caused by it. For me, based on the evidence quoted above and when I imagine a similar surgery performed on myself, male circumcision is genital mutilation.
You may see this differently, but the uncomfortable truth is that circumcision can have significant negative effects on a boy.

 

[Mama Mia]

9 hours ago, adidas said:

Oh gosh I hate being in the minority because I am one of those people who cares about downvotes! I have debated about posting for a couple of days, since the discussion started.

When I was pregnant it came down to this for me: if I insist on the right to make choices about my own body (ie her body, her choice), I think it’s only fair to my children that I extend the same choice. So: his body, his choice.

Then later in the pregnancy I heard a few horror stories which really cemented my decision. The final decider was that my obgyn said circ causes more problems than it solves. I had no social, medical or religious reason to do it and we’ve never had any problems (they’re adults now).

I hear and respect the stories from overseas where people had terrible problems and had to be circumcised but it seems to be the opposite here (no idea why - is it because socially we discuss whatever is not the default?) ... I’ve known one person who had to have her boy done due to a congenital problem with the foreskin, but I’ve known 3 people whose sons had really serious complications from being circed.

Assuming you’re in the US, you would be more likely to hear horror stories about circumcision because the majority of males  in most areas are circumcised. If you are in areas where most males aren’t circumcised the horror stories will be about uncircumcised penises (? - is that plural right?) . The more prevalent either practice is in your area, the more likely you are to hear anecdotal stories. This applies to pretty much anything. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2019 by Mama Mia

[adidas]

20 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

Assuming you’re in the US, you would be more likely to hear horror stories about circumcision because the majority of males  in most areas are circumcised. If you are in areas where most males aren’t circumcised the horror stories will be about uncircumcised penises (? - is that plural right?) . The more prevalent either practice is in your area, the more likely you are to hear anecdotal stories. This applies to pretty much anything. 

 

 

 

 

 

No, exactly the opposite. I live in an area where circumcision isn’t common.

[aprilx]

In the UK the NHS doesn’t provide circumcision unless proven history of medical problems have already occurred to the person concerned. If you want it done for religious reasons you must find someone willing to perform it, who often aren’t medically trained but can be certified, eg rabbis. If you want it done for non religious reasons and your son hasn’t  had any documented medical problems then you must find a private provider willing to do it, which can be both difficult and very costly indeed. 

[StraightOuttaArkansas]

5 minutes ago, aprilx said:

In the UK the NHS doesn’t provide circumcision unless proven history of medical problems have already occurred to the person concerned. If you want it done for religious reasons you must find someone willing to perform it, who often aren’t medically trained but can be certified, eg rabbis. If you want it done for non religious reasons and your son hasn’t  had any documented medical problems then you must find a private provider willing to do it, which can be both difficult and very costly indeed. 

I wanted to stay out of this, but I do have some info here. It is not as costly as you would think, at least in parts of London. My American expat group on facebook has a post at least once every six months of someone asking "where can I have my son circumcised, I cannot believe the NHS won't pay for it and the hospital won't let me just pay for it". The going rate seems to be between 150 and 300 pounds, but some people did say they had to pay 700 pounds. There was also a woman recently saying her son, born in the US and circumcised, was being teased at school by the other boys for it and what she should say to her son to help him feel better about it (first our second year of school aged). I get that that child was cut because they lived there and did not know they were moving abroad likely, but why would you live abroad and then still want your kid cut and set them up to be teased (referring to ones who have blatantly said they plan to stay long term)? All that to say, Americans in the UK seem to have a network to know where and how to have it done and rather cheaply too. I find that sad. The UK should crack down on that.

[lumpentheologie]

I just want to add that one of the reasons circumcision was adopted in the US was to limit male masturbation. In the late 19th century this was considered a real problem, and it is the case that circumcision makes masturbation more difficult/inconvenient: you pretty much need to use some kind of lube if you don't have a foreskin.  Potential TMI: I find it much easier/more natural to initiate sex with an uncircumcised partner for the same reason. 

I don't think this is really a reason people do it now, though. Current reasons (at least in the US) seem to be: 1) it's just the normal thing everyone does, 2) some vague ideas about hygiene, 3) some slight medical benefit, 4) religious reasons. 

I found some info about this in The History of Circumcision in the United States here: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-0-585-39937-9_28. I also learned that universal circumcision on infants wasn't adopted until the Cold War, which to me is surprisingly recent. 

[Melissa1977]

Add me to the people shocked about the circumcision discussion. In Spain it's only done for medical reasons, so circumscised men are a minority.

I suppose people who follow religions in which circumcision is mandatory, find doctors (?) or someone who makes the procedure. 

I've read a lot of times that being circumcised is healthier. But I'm not sure if it's right or there is cultural biased data.

[mstee]

When I got pregnant I started asking friends about their experience with circumcision and if they were for/against it (I already knew my husband’s stance). All my friends said do it. My one friend’s son isn’t and her stepson is and she said her son complains all the time about keeping it clean etc. My husband was like of course we will circumcise. I was shocked that he was so admanant. I was leaning towards not because I don’t like the idea of my little tiny baby having to experience that pain. Anyways, we never had to decide cause we had a baby girl. I’m dreading the conversation if our potential 2nd kid is a boy. 

Ive dated guys both cut and uncut, and have no preference. But I have heard many times “oh my gosh that’s so disgusting (not to be circumcised)”. I had no idea that it was such a big deal to some women. (I’m in the US). I’ve heard this many times and every time I’m surprised. 

Edited February 16, 2019 by mstee

[xenobia]

8 hours ago, SweetJuly said:

For me the scientific evidence is very clear in that the benefits of male circumcision do not outweigh the risks and harm caused by it. For me, based on the evidence quoted above and when I imagine a similar surgery performed on myself, male circumcision is genital mutilation.
You may see this differently, but the uncomfortable truth is that circumcision can have significant negative effects on a boy.

 

Thank you for providing actual facts in a discussion (although I was impolite enough to not quote all of it). Topics like this tend to have lots of feelings and traditions as basis for different viewpoints. I'm more interested in actual facts. So thanks! I 

[Mama Mia]

8 hours ago, adidas said:

No, exactly the opposite. I live in an area where circumcision isn’t common.

Never mind then. ?

[SorenaJ]

8 hours ago, StraightOuttaArkansas said:

My American expat group on facebook has a post at least once every six months of someone asking "where can I have my son circumcised, I cannot believe the NHS won't pay for it and the hospital won't let me just pay for it".

For real? That's hilarious. Why would NHS pay for it? I'll go ask the NHS to pay for my boob job or my ear piercing. 

[JillyO]

10 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

I just want to add that one of the reasons circumcision was adopted in the US was to limit male masturbation. In the late 19th century this was considered a real problem, and it is the case that circumcision makes masturbation more difficult/inconvenient: you pretty much need to use some kind of lube if you don't have a foreskin.  Potential TMI: I find it much easier/more natural to initiate sex with an uncircumcised partner for the same reason. 

I don't think this is really a reason people do it now, though. Current reasons (at least in the US) seem to be: 1) it's just the normal thing everyone does, 2) some vague ideas about hygiene, 3) some slight medical benefit, 4) religious reasons. 

I found some info about this in The History of Circumcision in the United States here: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-0-585-39937-9_28. I also learned that universal circumcision on infants wasn't adopted until the Cold War, which to me is surprisingly recent. 

OMG, thank you. As someone who grew up in Germany, where almost no one is circumcized for non-medical or non-religious reasons, I can't tell you how many times I've been puzzled by the fact that masturbation scenes in (American) movies and TV shows invariably feature a gigantic bottle of lotion/lube. I've never known any man to use lube to masturbate... but then I've also never had sex with a circumsized man. So you just cleared up a big mystery for me!

[helenprev]

14 minutes ago, JillyO said:

OMG, thank you. As someone who grew up in Germany, where almost no one is circumcized for non-medical or non-religious reasons, I can't tell you how many times I've been puzzled by the fact that masturbation scenes in (American) movies and TV shows invariably feature a gigantic bottle of lotion/lube. I've never known any man to use lube to masturbate... but then I've also never had sex with a circumsized man. So you just cleared up a big mystery for me!

Me too! I could have written all of this except I'm in the UK. The lotion in the TV shows has been a constant mystery to me. This thread is so educational!

[Carm_88]

Circumcision is extremely rare in Newfoundland. My Dad's generation was still being born by midwives and they certainly weren't doing the snip. So during the 60s and 70s, it never really caught on. We bring the whole national rate down because I think circumcision rate is like 1-3% maybe? 

When I went to university there was a girl from Pennsylvania who I was a friend of. She ended up talking to me one night about a guy she hooked up with and it turned out to be a guy that I had gone to high school with. She started saying that he dropped his pants and she started laughing because she had no idea what to do with an uncut penis. My rather sarcastic remark was "Well, the same thing you would do with a cut one. The only hard thing should be the dick." 

 

[Cheetah]

15 hours ago, SweetJuly said:

This is going to be long, but I would appreciate if you took the time to read through this.

Of course parents who circumcise their sons are not evil barbarians who like to inflict pain and torture on their children. Fortunately the overwhelming majority of parents love their children and want only the best for them.

As I mentioned before, I am Jewish. Even though I come from a rather secular family, circumcision was an integral part of my life growing up. It is one of the greatest mitzvot (religious obligations) of Judaism, being the first received by Abraham and every newborn Jewish male since then. Unlike some other mitzvot that can be ambiguous, this one is clearly spelled out in the Bible. All male relatives of mine (except for one, see shortly) were circumcised. Every brit milah was a cause for celebration and great pride and happiness. One of my uncles married a non-Jewish woman and their son was the only one who was not circumcised as infant. Despite having been raised culturally Jewish, he was not considered such (due to his mother not being Jewish), and decided to convert and seek circumcision in his early 20s in order to marry a woman from a conservative family. I remember long discussions within the family about this. I also remember giving a presentation on Judaism in my highschool class in rural Germany and explaining (and what felt like defending) circumcision to a class of teenagers. I was very proud of the practice, and absolutely certain that any hypothetical sons of mine would be circumcised.

Then I moved back to Israel for military service and university. During my studies, I volunteered with a small charity that provided free sexual health advice (counselling, medical treatment). That was the first time I was confronted with botched/badly performed circumcisions. I especially remember a Jewish boy who had lost the glans, and two Muslim brothers who had such terrible scarring on their penises that they had lost basically all sensation and needed surgery to allow the tissue to expand when they went into puberty. I also met a number of Israeli guys who were not angry, but rather resentful about having been circumcised without their consent as babies. Now I know these medical cases are fortunately rather rare exceptions, and I know many FJers have friends or family members who are perfectly fine being circumcised. My own father is supremely happy as he is. What I am trying to show is what made me question a practice that had been integral to my sense of self ever since I could remember.

Coming from a medical family, I then set out on doing my research, trying to be as open-minded and unbiased as possible.

1) The foreskin

While some researchers imply that the foreskin in itself enhances sexual pleasure due to millions of present nerve receptors, a review of the literature seems to point to the foreskin not being an erogenous zone in itself, but serving protective and supportive functions such as:
protecting the developing penis in utero; protecting the glans from feces, abrasions, trauma and parasites; keeping the glans moist; providing sufficient skin during an erection; providing additional lubrication during intercourse; etc

It's safe to say that the foreskin is not "completely useless" as my father liked to claim.

The Wikipedia article on foreskin links to many related studies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreskin

2) Pain and psychological after-effects

A 1997 Canadian study found that babies who received no anesthesia for circumcision were in so much pain that it would be unethical to continue.  Even the best commonly available method of pain relief studied (dorsal penile nerve block) was insufficient. Some babies chocked due to the pain, one even had a seizure.

Another study found that the pain of circumcision heightens pain sensitivity of an infant.

According to other studies, circumcision also can cause post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and various psychological difficulties (depression, low self-esteem, problems with intimacy)

I find psychological effects tricky to determine and pinpoint on one experience in childhood, but the matter of pain experienced and remembered seems fairly clear.

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/lander/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731
http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/boyle6/
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1464-410x.1999.0830s1093.x

3) Desensitisation

Perception of pleasure is subjective. From what I understand, studies have been inconclusive on the matter due to this. My cousin who got circumcised in his 20s might well report that his sexual pleasure increased, but this could be due to psychological effects (finally belonging to a group of people, marrying his wife, etc)

It also appears that some studies claim that the glans will keratinise and have reduced sensitivity, whereas other studies found heightened sensitivity.

However, intact men will confirm that when asked to pull back the foreskin, any stimulus (such as underwear rubbing against it) will be unbearably unpleasant. An unprotected glans will logically desensitive over time, be it by drying out, keratinising or simple overstimulation. What certainly happens is that any circumcision, especially a badly performed one, will leave scar tissue that naturally has much reduced sensitivity.

It's a risky game, therefore, and in doubt I'd leave the penis of a newborn as it is, relying on nature as the best judge of what part of a healthy body is necessary or not.

I've not listed any studies here because there are loads that can be easily retrieved online.

4) Side effects of circumcision
It's important to remember that, when discussing medical benefits, we'd also need to take into account possible side effects of the operation such as adhesions, infections, meatal stenosis, and even death. Rare, but possible.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/240804903_Lost_Boys_An_Estimate_of_US_Circumcision-Related_Infant_Deaths

5) Medical benefits

Some studies appear to show some benefits such as a decreased risk of UTIs, some sexually transmitted diseases in men (HPV, HIV), and protection against penile cancer. Apparently there's some methodological issues with these studies, though, and they are not uncontroversial (much data derived from Sub-Saharan Africa).

Penile cancer is already a very rare cancer (less than 1 case per 100,000 person-years in Western countries), and even if the reported protection of circumcision is accurate it doesn't justify a preemptive mass amputation of the affected tissue on every child. If one truly wanted to bring down cancer rates, it would probably be a better solution to preemptively remove testicles in men and breasts in women, but nobody seems to be advocating for that

Conservative treatments exist to deal with conditions such as UTIs or phimosis. It does appear that circumcision can help/cure boys who battle recurring UTIs, but this should be evaluated on an individual basis, not performed as a blanket surgery on every newborn boy.

And frankly, the benefits of good medical care, improved genital hygiene, vaccines (HPV), and safe sex far outweigh whatever advantage a circumcision may provide.

Examples of studies - there's loads of others that can be easily retrieved:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4364150/
https://adc.bmj.com/content/90/8/773
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3139859/

TL;DR:
For me the scientific evidence is very clear in that the benefits of male circumcision do not outweigh the risks and harm caused by it. For me, based on the evidence quoted above and when I imagine a similar surgery performed on myself, male circumcision is genital mutilation.
You may see this differently, but the uncomfortable truth is that circumcision can have significant negative effects on a boy.

 

Great post, thanks!

We are in the US and didn't have our sons circumsized.  I've never asked them about locker room experiences but I'm surprised by the idea of being teased or bullied for looking different as the little I have heard about locker room stuff the kids are desperately NOT looking at anyone else while changing.    

[Ms. Squishels]

Just a funny story.  My dad needed his tonsils out when he was about 7.  It was the 1940's.  He had not been circumcised, and my grandmother decided that while he was out during his tonsillectomy that it would be a good idea to go ahead and circumcise him.  But no one bothered to tell him that that was going to happen.  He had been told his throat would be sore and he would get to eat ice cream.  But when he woke up, all he could think was that he knew his throat was going to hurt, but why was his wiener so sore??  No one mentioned that part of it.  So he always thought more about pain in the genital area if anyone mentioned having to have their tonsils out.  It was always funny when he talked about it.

[caitrona]

@SweetJuly and @lumpentheologie basically covered all my usual talking points, save this:  when I hear "he won't look like his dad" if a father is circ'ed and the son is not, my thought is usually along the lines of "that's probably good, because there should be a size and hairiness level difference between them."  I mean, no one has ever said that a mother can't teach her daughter about how to wear a bra because their breasts are different sizes, or teach her to use a tampon if their labia look different.  It's a teaching moment, the same if kids come home saying they were made fun of for wearing glasses/bra size/penis status -- no one's body looks exactly like another's. That's one of the great things about life.  So some families have made a decision to have part of their son's penis removed, others haven't.  The end.  The only other teaching that needs to take place is treating an uncircumcised penis just like a finger -- don't retract the foreskin! Retracting is like pulling a fingernail off the nail bed if it's done before the body releases those adhesions naturally (at some point before puberty).

[OhNoNike]

2 hours ago, Ms. Squishels said:

Just a funny story.  My dad needed his tonsils out when he was about 7.  It was the 1940's.  He had not been circumcised, and my grandmother decided that while he was out during his tonsillectomy that it would be a good idea to go ahead and circumcise him.  But no one bothered to tell him that that was going to happen.  He had been told his throat would be sore and he would get to eat ice cream.  But when he woke up, all he could think was that he knew his throat was going to hurt, but why was his wiener so sore??  No one mentioned that part of it.  So he always thought more about pain in the genital area if anyone mentioned having to have their tonsils out.  It was always funny when he talked about it.

Holy shit!  I’m glad he had a sense of humor about it because wow that seems so wrong to do to your kid!

[Mama Mia]

5 hours ago, caitrona said:

@SweetJuly and @lumpentheologie basically covered all my usual talking points, save this:  when I hear "he won't look like his dad" if a father is circ'ed and the son is not, my thought is usually along the lines of "that's probably good, because there should be a size and hairiness level difference between them."  I mean, no one has ever said that a mother can't teach her daughter about how to wear a bra because their breasts are different sizes, or teach her to use a tampon if their labia look different.  It's a teaching moment, the same if kids come home saying they were made fun of for wearing glasses/bra size/penis status -- no one's body looks exactly like another's. That's one of the great things about life.  So some families have made a decision to have part of their son's penis removed, others haven't.  The end.  The only other teaching that needs to take place is treating an uncircumcised penis just like a finger -- don't retract the foreskin! Retracting is like pulling a fingernail off the nail bed if it's done before the body releases those adhesions naturally (at some point before puberty).

Well holy shit, I guess it’s REALLY fortunate that I ended up having my sons circumcised, until right this minute I was 100% sure that you were supposed to retract the foreskin for cleaning, and that infections (and horror stories) happened as they got older because they weren’t very good at it yet, yikes! I would have completely fucked it up. 

[SorenaJ]

6 hours ago, caitrona said:

@SweetJuly and @lumpentheologie basically covered all my usual talking points, save this:  when I hear "he won't look like his dad" if a father is circ'ed and the son is not, my thought is usually along the lines of "that's probably good, because there should be a size and hairiness level difference between them."  I mean, no one has ever said that a mother can't teach her daughter about how to wear a bra because their breasts are different sizes, or teach her to use a tampon if their labia look different.  It's a teaching moment, the same if kids come home saying they were made fun of for wearing glasses/bra size/penis status -- no one's body looks exactly like another's.

Exactly. I never understood the "he won't look like his dad". I mean, no, maybe not. What if the dad has brown eyes, and the kid blue? Are you gonna inject liquid into his eyes to make them brown, or have the kid wear brown contact lenses? What if the kid is ginger, and the dad has brown hair? Are you gonna dye the boy's hair brown? In fact, you probably should, since you live in area where the majority of people have brown hair and brown eyes, better get the contact lenses and the hair dye ready before he starts school so he won't get teased! Oh and the dad has got a beard? Hair transplant it is! 

[OhNoNike]

im just so glad I had girls.  As I’ve mentioned many times, my entire family is British so the circumscision discussion wasn’t one when my brother was born. My dad was only bc if some issue he had as a child (no idea, I never asked).  I was always under the “I just don’t want to physically alter my kids permanently, if possible” crowd.  

It’s not the same (but the only thing baby decision that is similar), but it’s also why I didn’t have my girls’ ears pierced.  I had issues with mine when they were done at age 9 and just didn’t want to have to deal with ear care and all the things associated with it.  My oldest is 8 and has never mentioned it. I used to beg my mom to get it done, and she did relent. All these years later I have had them pierced 4 times (three holes and then he first redone), but I haven’t worn earrings in the 9 years since I got married.  Maybe times have changed and the girls just don’t bring attention to it at school, or more girls just don’t have them pierced.  Yes it’s not the same, I know.

Anyway,  the whole circumscision situation would have been a big topic in my marriage had I had boys.  I don’t have a penis and maybe I’d have deferred to my husband. Maybe he’d actually have been fine with them intact.  We never needed to discuss it. It’s a huge decision and I wouldn’t ever blame someone for their decision to do it or not.  

Very interesting discussion on the argument that boy won’t look like daddy.   Never thought of it that way (eyes are different or hair or arms longer or any other things that occur).

[Mar]

22 hours ago, JillyO said:

OMG, thank you. As someone who grew up in Germany, where almost no one is circumcized for non-medical or non-religious reasons, I can't tell you how many times I've been puzzled by the fact that masturbation scenes in (American) movies and TV shows invariably feature a gigantic bottle of lotion/lube. I've never known any man to use lube to masturbate... but then I've also never had sex with a circumsized man. So you just cleared up a big mystery for me!

I wish I could use both the laugh and the agree reaction for this! I also had a lightbulb go on in my head when I read @lumpentheologie's post. Finally I understand what that lotion is for ? And I had been wondering how circumcision became so common in the US given that the majority of people have some sort of Christian background, not a Jewish or Muslim one. So thank you @lumpentheologie for all that new information! ?

[Satan'sFortress]

I've never understood the "he won't look like his dad argument" because . . . how the fuck often are the dad and son going to be comparing penises?!?!  I just really, really, really don't get it!?!?!  I am 50 and never, not once, saw my mother's vulva or vagina (except while being born, I suppose.)  As far as I know, my sons have never seen my husband's penis.  At least certainly not at a time when they were old enough to compare?  What am I missing here?

Interestingly enough, I have two sons:  one is circumcised and one is not.  The older one was born in the late 90s and though I was against it, we went ahead with the mainstream medical advice at the time.  I regret it now.  The second was born several years later, when the AAP advice changed to say that routine circumcision was no longer recommended.  I felt very comfortable with that decision, knowing he could always choose to get it later if he wanted. 

Prevailing thoughts here seem to indicate that later-in-life circumcision causes a lot of pain and discomfort.  Why would that be true for a 4 year old or a 24 year old, but not an infant?  I bet it hurts the babies, too.  To my knowledge, anesthesia is not always used for newborn circumcision.  At the time of my #1 son's circumcision, maybe they used a local?  Maybe just a topical. I was told infants couldn't feel pain by several people. I sat on the bed and cried when they took him away to do it.  Damn.  I still feel bad.

FWIW, my 16 year old has not experienced any UTI or health issues because of remaining intact.  And, as far as I know, he hasn't experienced any hazing or comments about it at all.  We live in an area where most males are circumcised.  maybe I'll ask him about it.  Just what every 16 year old boy wants to discuss with his mom.