JinJer 47: Sparking J-O-Y

[Taylurker]

13 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

That's why there are medical exemptions. Has anyone in this thread suggested that there shouldn't be medical exemptions? I'm confused as to what you're arguing against here. The vast, vast majority of people have literally no issue with vaccines, and vaccines prevent an unfathomable number of deaths every year. What exactly is your point? People are injured by airbags too. I'm not going to take the airbags out of my car because there's an infinitesimal change they might injure me.

Well most people who are injured by vaccines did not have any problems with them before. That's why, from what I can tell, parents who don't vaccinate choose not to do so in the first place. They probably know someone personally who was adversely affected by a vaccine and seek to prevent the same damage to their own children. They're not dangerous, as someone in this thread stated (which is why I said something). They care about their kids like everyone else. And I don't see how you can compare airbags to this issue, because one is a medical device and the other has to do with car safety. 

Penicillin is a treatment, not a preventive medicine. My mom is allergic to penicillin. Luckily, there are other antibiotics she can have to treat any serious illnesses she may have, and no one is ordering that she take penicillin.

[Nomorethanfour]

When my son was 2 months old (26 years ago) he had a seizure that almost killed him. The doctor said it was the pertussis part of the DPT . I was a young mom and didn't question HOW they knew it was the DPT when he had so many vaccines. So, we only got him the DT and when he was three years old he caught the whooping cough. Omg, he was so sick!! It lasted several months and it was scary. 13 years later I had my second child and I didnt let them combine vaccines and I only gave her one at a time. It took some time to find a doctor that would do it and it meant more sticks but that's what we did. She is fully vaccinated. I've had a vaccine injured child and also had him catch the whooping cough. Both were equally scary.

 

[singsingsing]

28 minutes ago, Taylurker said:

They're not dangerous, as someone in this thread stated (which is why I said something). They care about their kids like everyone else.

Bullshit. They absolutely are dangerous. They're the very definition of dangerous. They're endangering their own children and other children. They're endangering society by aiding in the return of deadly diseases. The fact that people are so incredibly ignorant and foolish is honestly terrifying.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

20 hours ago, PreciousPantsofDoom said:

I was born when they were still giving smallpox vaccinations (so pre 1972 ) but I don't have the little circular scar on the outside of my left upper arm that you see on most people of my vintage.  My Mum knew it would leave a mark, so she insisted that it be given on the inside of my arm where it wouldn't be noticeable.  Thanks Mum! 

 

19 hours ago, MathQueen said:

I had my smallpox shot on the inside of my arm, as well. But I ended up with an indentation on the front of my arm, evidently as a result of the inoculation. Did that happen to you, Precious Pants?

My smallpox vaccination was on the outside of my left arm, but I barely have a scar. I can only find it with a flashlight because it doesn't have the fine, blonde body hair that the skin next to it has. A flashlight shone across will show a small, hairless circle.

And that's WWJCD's totally unnecessary personal fact for the day. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

To piggy back on other posters, no one has suggested that a vaccine-reactive/vaccine allergic child should continue to receive vaccines. These vaccine-sensitive children are exactly why the rest of us need to be vaccinated to build herd immunity. Medical science is often messy and complicated. At times, it's a bit of an "educated guess" thrown in with past experiences.  We don't throw our hands up and abandon medical science. We research more and more. The solution to flawed vaccines is application of research to produce better vaccines. 

[AliceInFundyland]

Time for some statistics.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4599698/

This is the abstract concerning death after vaccinations. Peruse.

Here is the cdc side effect of vaccine webpage (also with rates) Peruse.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

@Taylurker I think you are oversimplifying things.

(I edited myself. People can have bad outcomes from vaccines, like the polio story, and still value vaccination.)

[AtlanticTug]

31 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Bullshit. They absolutely are dangerous. They're the very definition of dangerous. They're endangering their own children and other children. They're endangering society by aiding in the return of deadly diseases. The fact that people are so incredibly ignorant and foolish is honestly terrifying.

They are also incredibly entitled.

[Satan'sFortress]

My last straw before leaving Facebook was an extended argument with someone about Flu vaccines.

From the 1918 pandemic alone (this from CDC https://www.cdc.gov/features/1918-flu-pandemic/index.html

Spoiler

It is estimated that about 500 million people or one-third of the world’s population became infected with this virus, and the number of deaths was estimated to be at least 50 million worldwide with about 675,000 occurring in the United States. The pandemic was so severe that from 1917 to 1918, life expectancy in the United States fell by about 12 years, to 36.6 years for men and 42.2 years for women. There were high death rates in previously healthy people, including those between the ages of 20 and 40 years old, which was unusual because flu typically hits the very young and the very old more than young adults.

@Taylurker   I wonder how many of those infected and dead would have taken the risk of a flu vaccine had one been available at the time?

[Carm_88]

1 hour ago, Taylurker said:

Well most people who are injured by vaccines did not have any problems with them before. That's why, from what I can tell, parents who don't vaccinate choose not to do so in the first place. They probably know someone personally who was adversely affected by a vaccine and seek to prevent the same damage to their own children.

Have you seen the damage that polio does? I have. My uncle had polio in the 50s before the vaccine was available. He's disabled and he always will be. You know what? He's lucky because he can breathe, he is not dead. The upside of polio is that he is disabled. People wanted to protect their children may kill them. My mother is deaf because her mother had measles while she was pregnant with my Mom. There were so many deaf and hard of hearing kids at that time period that there was a special school set up for them, all because of measles. Not vaccinating your children can kill them or kill someone who would love to be vaccinated but can't. 

https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/woman-who-developed-condition-after-having-a-vaccine-urges-others-to-get-vaccinated/

Life changed due to vaccines, still wants people to get vaccinated! 

[Georgiana]

As someone in a state experiencing a measles outbreak, explain to me again how the people directly responsible for endangering the lives of hundreds of vulnerable people are NOT to be considered dangerous? Again, they have literally caused a public health emergency in my area. 

[AliceInFundyland]

40 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

As someone in a state experiencing a measles outbreak, explain to me again how the people directly responsible for endangering the lives of hundreds of vulnerable people are NOT to be considered dangerous? Again, they have literally caused a public health emergency in my area. 

And mine. I work in healthcare related journalism in the Portland metro area, I remember the day we heard about that first case last summer. We started calling. Then it was two. Now it’s 40odd in Clark County, 

It’s frightening.

https://www.oregonlive.com/clark-county/2019/02/vancouver-area-measles-outbreak-grows-to-47-cases.html

For nonUS:

Vancouver,WA borders Portland, OR. in the Pacific NW. The reported cases have been in Washington but it’s literally a matter of going over a bridge.

Go over the bridge and you get to the airport, a sports center..downtown PDX. 

Both cities are very blue and liberal and have homeschooling, crunchy populations with likely unvaccinated kids and “woosier” inclined folk

Oregon’s governor has been verbal about getting the vaccine. 

 

[AtlanticTug]

Some of us have children who were born preemies and they are always put at risk by unvaccinated children.

There are also kids who have immune disorders or are receiving treatment for cancer or a host of other issues requiring them to take immunosuppresive drugs and they could die from exposure to unvaccinated children who are spreading something like measles.

The selfishness and entitlement mentality of anti-vaxxers is astounding.

[singsingsing]

I was literally just looking at old church records from the mid 1880s during a diphtheria outbreak. A dozen children from the same extended family died in a 2-week time span of a disease that is now preventable if people are vaccinated. I'd love to know how those grieving parents would react to these people on the internet who've decided their depression/migraines/ADHD/obesity was caused by a vaccine injury* and refuse to vaccinate their children. They'd probably spit in their faces. Let me know when 12 kids from the same family die in a fortnight due to "vaccine injuries" and then we'll talk.

*I'm criticizing the people who self-diagnose based on memes and internet quackery, not people who have genuinely suffered adverse reactions to vaccines (most of whom aren't running around pushing anti-vax rhetoric)

[Alice in Fundieland]

20 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

I couldn't have done it, would have had to shut that shit down. These folks are dangerous and a public health menace.

I have in the past. Her kids are vaccinated because they have to be in order to attend public school, but she isn’t happy about it. Arguing with her is exhausting and any time I cite actual peer-reviewed studies she calls it big pharma propaganda, so I’ve just started remaining quiet until I can change the subject. 

[Bad Wolf]

Grand Wolf 2 was late with his vaccinations because he was FTT. Doctor recommendation. So if you don't want to vaccinate your kid, keep him away from the rest of the public. Home school, don't take him to the park, or library or store where vulnerable people may be. It's not just children who are at risk.

Grand Wolf 2 is caught up now.

[Ali]

I am pregnant and a blood test showed I have no immunity to German measles. I am disappointed that this was not checked during my previous two pregnancies. I do not remember it being mentioned before and I could not see myself refusing a vaccination. My OB said they could give me the vaccination after I deliver because it is not safe to get it during pregnancy due to the risk of birth defects. I will enthusiastically agree to get it despite the fact that I will be getting a tubal during the c-section. Someone with German measles was recently at an event near me. Vaccinations are not just for our benefit.

[FrozenSmile]

I am so happy to see that (almost) everyone here is pro-vaccine! I have a “friend” that is very vocal about not vaccinating because she thinks it’s why her daughter has autism. She believes that the quack doctor was simply silenced by the CDC & evil evil Big Pharma & that they are covering up a massive amount of “vaccine injuries”. (Just an aside - a “vaccine injury” isn’t necessarily permanent paralysis or death. A simple fever after a vaccine can be considered a “vaccine injury”. So. Yeah. ?) Her latest soap box is about aborted fetal material in vaccines. 

Look, as far as i’m concerned, my kids are fully vaccinated & they will continue to be fully vaccinated. We don’t always get the flu shot, but that’s only because we try to stay away from the doctor’s office during peak flu season. I make sure that i’m up to date on my vaccines too, since i work with children. Herd immunity is so important! VACCINATE YOUR KIDS! 

[Alice in Fundieland]

@FrozenSmile Your friend is spewing a lot of the same misinformation as my acquaintance, who gets her “facts” from different essential oil groups. I sent her this article and she hasn’t brought up the aborted fetal material with me again. 

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/aborted-fetuses-vaccines/story?id=29005539

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

I am surprised, and not in a good way, about the fact that people around the world are still arguing about vaccine vs. no vaccine. It shouldn't even be an option, really: it should be mandatory without discussions, notwithstanding medical exceptions as someone listed up thread, on the advice of a specific child's doctor after all possibilities have been investigated - and by that, I do not mean a quack doctor! Realistically, these are rare occurrences.  Also, don't give me the BS of the religious exception: surely national health emergencies (a mumps outbreak in 2018 is a national health emergency) trumps any kind of religious exception. 

I would argue that deliberately choosing not to vaccinate one's children makes one unfit to be a parent, and in my book, it is child abuse. 

[FrozenSmile]

12 minutes ago, Alice in Fundieland said:

@FrozenSmile Your friend is spewing a lot of the same misinformation as my acquaintance, who gets her “facts” from different essential oil groups. I sent her this article and she hasn’t brought up the aborted fetal material with me again. 

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/aborted-fetuses-vaccines/story?id=29005539

Thanks! Sadly, though, i think that all she would get from that article is “See? There ARE aborted fetal cells in vaccines! I was right!” I’ve found that a lot of anti-vaxxers think that they are smarter than the average doctor & that we are just gullible sheep doing what government & big pharma tell us to do. Forget the facts that are out there about the effectiveness of vaccines. Forget that we are starting to see freaking MEASLES making a comeback (because it wasn’t bad enough when whooping cough made a comeback). But those facebook pages by “doctors” or “health experts”, yep, those are gospel truth. SMH

[PennySycamore]

@Ali, you may already know this, but the actress Gene Tierney  contracted German measles in 1943, when she was pregnant with her daughter, Daria, from a service member fan at the Hollywood Canteen.  Daria was born prematurely, weighing a little over 3 sounds, deaf, partially blind and severely mentally disabled.  She was institutionalized for most of her life.  Howard Hughes paid for Daria's medical expenses so that she'd have the best of care. 

German measles (rubella) is nothing to fool around with, especially for pregnant women.  (You know that already.)  Anti-vaxxers who claim to be "pro-life" need to ask themselves how the hell is it pro-life  to risk a pregnant woman contracting rubella?

[SorenaJ]

Does anyone know if vegans are against vaccines if they contain eggs or gelatine? I don't want to ask any vegan friend IRL, because I feel like that would be rude and weird to ask, but I'm still curious if vegans would deny vaccines because of that, or they would just accept it because it's dangerous not getting them. 

[nausicaa]

10 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

@Ali, you may already know this, but the actress Gene Tierney  contracted German measles in 1943, when she was pregnant with her daughter, Daria, from a service member fan at the Hollywood Canteen.  Daria was born prematurely, weighing a little over 3 sounds, deaf, partially blind and severely mentally disabled.  She was institutionalized for most of her life.  Howard Hughes paid for Daria's medical expenses so that she'd have the best of care. 

I thought of that story as well. Two years after Tierney's daughter was born, a fan revealed herself to be the vector when she approached her for an autograph and said that she had snuck out of quarantine while sick during that time with German measles to visit the Hollywood Canteen and meet Tierney. Agatha Christie based The Mirror Crack'd from Side to Side on the story. 

5 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

Does anyone know if vegans are against vaccines if they contain eggs or gelatine? I don't want to ask any vegan friend IRL, because I feel like that would be rude and weird to ask, but I'm still curious if vegans would deny vaccines because of that, or they would just accept it because it's dangerous not getting them. 

I know that when insulin was still made from pigs, there was debate within the vegan community about using it. A lot of vegans argued that preserving human life was as important as animal life and we don't yet live in a perfect world in which there is no use of animal products, therefore it was all right for vegan diabetics to use it. I know vegans were integral in the development of synthetic insulin. 

I imagine there's similar thinking for vaccines. I mean, most of them drive on rubber tires. 

[PreciousPantsofDoom]

On 2/2/2019 at 9:28 PM, MathQueen said:

I had my smallpox shot on the inside of my arm, as well. But I ended up with an indentation on the front of my arm, evidently as a result of the inoculation. Did that happen to you, Precious Pants?

Nope! Wonder how it happened to you?  Mine is hard to find even when you know to look on the underside of my arm.  Just a slightly different texture of skin in that one spot.  

But I can still find the old chicken pox bump just under my right ear from where I scratched when I wasn't supposed to. 

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

5 hours ago, Ali said:

I am pregnant and a blood test showed I have no immunity to German measles.

My understanding is sometimes your body just stops making antibodies after you've been vaccinated. Happened to me with (I think) Hep B. Annoying!