JinJer 47: Sparking J-O-Y

[Meggo]

I feel like the "when does life begin" discussion is kind of like art. "I'll know it when I see it." 

I believe there is a potential person at conception. If a woman decides to terminate that pregnancy - for whatever reason she sees as reasonable - I'm going to trust she knows what she's doing, what her situation is and has made a thoughtful decision. No one I know who has had an abortion - has EVER done it without a LOT of thought. 
My son was born at 31 weeks and did need a respirator for a few days - but within a few days he was relatively okay. Still in an incubator - still struggling to remember to  breath, to keep his heart rate steady and to keep his body temp up (it's a lot for those little shavers). But very much a person. 

So - that's why I can't get behind legislation. Give women options. Give them FACTS (real ones, like - science and stuff) and trust that we can make up our own damn minds. 

[SassyPants]

Being pro choice means accepting all choices. IMO, that’s all that matters. No one should mandate how another person MUST use their body or what medical procedures another MUST endure. IMO independent viability matters.  Pro choice folks do not want to mandate what others MUST do.

[VBOY9977]

Jinger sounding like a true fundie

 

[just_ordinary]

OMG Fj has clearly formed my understanding of „sweet fellowship“. It took me a few seconds to recover 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

2 hours ago, JesSky03 said:

I don't think one can argue that an unborn child isn't alive or that it is not a "life". A better question to ask is when does that life have value? For me it IS from conception. My son was my son from the beginning. He didn't change into someone else or become anything different from the womb to outside world. He was my son when I saw his heartbeat at 4.5 weeks gestation and he was still my son when I was able to feel his heart beating in my arms at 38 weeks gestation. He's now a year old and he still can't survive on his own so when does his life have value? 

But would you force your opinion on other women?  That is the big question.  I don't really care when you think life begins (this is a general you, not you specific) I only care that you allow other women to make that choice for themselves. 

[viii]

1 hour ago, VBOY9977 said:

Jinger sounding like a true fundie

I always find it ironic this site is called Free Jinger, since I've always thought that Jinger has been one of the ones to drink the kool-aid the hardest. 

[KeshetParparNesicha]

1 hour ago, viii said:

I always find it ironic this site is called Free Jinger, since I've always thought that Jinger has been one of the ones to drink the kool-aid the hardest. 

Yes, but remember that one time she rolled her eyes

[AtlanticTug]

4 hours ago, JesSky03 said:

I don't think one can argue that an unborn child isn't alive or that it is not a "life". A better question to ask is when does that life have value? For me it IS from conception. My son was my son from the beginning. He didn't change into someone else or become anything different from the womb to outside world. He was my son when I saw his heartbeat at 4.5 weeks gestation and he was still my son when I was able to feel his heart beating in my arms at 38 weeks gestation. He's now a year old and he still can't survive on his own so when does his life have value? 

That's why it's great that nobody forced you to have an abortion - you had a choice.

Also, you could not have heard a heartbeat at 4.5 weeks gestation as that is scientifically impossible.

[Whatthefundie]

14 minutes ago, AtlanticTug said:

That's why it's great that nobody forced you to have an abortion - you had a choice.

Also, you could not have heard a heartbeat at 4.5 weeks gestation as that is scientifically impossible.

The poster stated that she saw the heartbeat, not heard 

[AtlanticTug]

1 minute ago, Whatthefundie said:

The poster stated that she saw the heartbeat, not heard 

That is equally as impossible seeing as how the fetal pole (i.e. what becomes the fetus eventually) does not even form until 5.5 weeks gestation.

[Whatthefundie]

4 minutes ago, AtlanticTug said:

That is equally as impossible seeing as how the fetal pole (i.e. what becomes the fetus eventually) does not even form until 5.5 weeks gestation.

Ok, I was just saying what she stated 

[JesSky03]

19 minutes ago, AtlanticTug said:

That's why it's great that nobody forced you to have an abortion - you had a choice.

Also, you could not have heard a heartbeat at 4.5 weeks gestation as that is scientifically impossible.

You're right. I confused gestational age with fetal age. 

[TeaELSee]

I popped over to this thread because I was certain somebody would have posted about Jinger and her incessant baby bouncing. I have had babies, I have bounced babies, but she looked so awkward doing it.  She didn’t appear to hold her with proper head support at times. It just bugged me.

Does Jeremy have a dry sense of humor or is he being serious? I can’t tell with him since he is so smug.

 

[BachelorToTheRapture]

14 hours ago, AstridM said:

Most pills are not progestin only.

However if you have ocular migraines the only pill you can take is progestin only. Of course there are still many other birth control options, especially if you're not worried about whether it stops implantation or ovulation.

[Casserole]

Keeping in mind that I am extremely science oriented, my definition of "life" begins when the new human becomes separated from the mother's body and can sustain their own life - meaning, the blood has drained from the umbilical cord and that connection to the mother's body/nutrients/support ends and the infant is alive/breathing/heart beating independent of the mother. 

I am not against interventions at birth to save lives or the medical technology that can keep micro premies alive, however so long as the fetus is attached to the umbilicus, attached to the placenta, attached to the mother's uterus, it is only another part of the woman, growing inside of her body. It is totally and completely her body, and therefore her choice what happens from there. 

 

Friendly reminder that pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion. Pro-choice also allows those who believe life begins at conception to make their own choices based on their own wants, needs, and beliefs. 

[SassyPants]

26 minutes ago, TeaELSee said:

I popped over to this thread because I was certain somebody would have posted about Jinger and her incessant baby bouncing. I have had babies, I have bounced babies, but she looked so awkward doing it.  She didn’t appear to hold her with proper head support at times. It just bugged me.

Does Jeremy have a dry sense of humor or is he being serious? I can’t tell with him since he is so smug.

 

Yep, way too aggressive on the attempt to soothe. Why didn’t she try to feed her, especially since she mentioned that the baby might be hungry? I’m thinking Lissy has given the Vuolos a run for their money. Good, maybe they’ll think twice about having a gaggle.

[Belugaloo]

33 minutes ago, BachelorToTheRapture said:

However if you have ocular migraines the only pill you can take is progestin only. Of course there are still many other birth control options, especially if you're not worried about whether it stops implantation or ovulation.

Is this a hard fact? Ie should I be concerned that ive been on combo pills for 3 years and have had multiple ocular migraines since I was in high school? My doctor has never mentioned it as a problem, but I did recently start skipping placebo weeks since they were a trigger for non-ocular headaches

[Melissa1977]

4 hours ago, viii said:

I always find it ironic this site is called Free Jinger, since I've always thought that Jinger has been one of the ones to drink the kool-aid the hardest. 

When FJ was created, Jinger was very young and looked pissed off most of the time. And was the only Duggar daughter who showed/said she was slighty uncomfortable with her life.

But yes, nowadays there's no Jinger to set free, as she's a happy fundie as long as she has brand new clothes and Starbucks.

I suppose Jinger and Alyssa were shy, quiet kids who hated to live in a crowded, poor, noisy house. They married and got a far better life and they have no reason to complain now.

[BachelorToTheRapture]

34 minutes ago, Belugaloo said:

Is this a hard fact? Ie should I be concerned that ive been on combo pills for 3 years and have had multiple ocular migraines since I was in high school? My doctor has never mentioned it as a problem, but I did recently start skipping placebo weeks since they were a trigger for non-ocular headaches

My doctor was super concerned about it, and it's listed on most combination pills that if you have aural/ocular migraines that you shouldn't take them. She said it puts you at higher risk of stroke and heart problems . 

I see it on planned parenthood's website, though looking other places it appears the research is mixed on how worried you should be. For me, I decided that with lots of family history of heart issues and stroke (1 grandparent had severe strokes, 2 have had triple or higher bypass surgery) I'll avoid anything that has a substitute that lowers my risk.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/birth-control-pill/how-safe-is-the-birth-control-pill

[Hashtag Blessed]

7 hours ago, JesSky03 said:

I don't think one can argue that an unborn child isn't alive or that it is not a "life". A better question to ask is when does that life have value? For me it IS from conception. My son was my son from the beginning. He didn't change into someone else or become anything different from the womb to outside world. He was my son when I saw his heartbeat at 4.5 weeks gestation and he was still my son when I was able to feel his heart beating in my arms at 38 weeks gestation. He's now a year old and he still can't survive on his own so when does his life have value? 

I think I could argue that. I'm currently pregnant as we speak and right up until a few weeks ago I did not really think of my child as "alive." For a few reasons:

1. All through the 1st trimester, I was aware that around 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. I knew, no matter how excited we were in those first few weeks, it might not be meant to be and could end at any moment.

2. Up until recently, I knew they didn't have a fully developed brain yet, so could not be said to have awareness or thoughts or dreams. That's a big part of what makes something alive in my mind. 

2. I knew that should premature labor happen (which was a very real possibility for a long time) they would not likely survive outside my body. Which made it more like an extension of my own life, rather than a separate life. It was/is a part of me until it is ready to sustain itself independently. You can get bogged down with the semantics of 'well, babies can't take care of themselves either' but their organs and brains can at least support their bodies. There's a huge difference between needing to be fed and cared for and needing outside help to sustain blood flow and organ function. To me, it is much like when someone is on life support. Their family can decide to turn off life support and we don't generally call that murder. 

I think it's great that you felt that way from so early on, but I did not. However, I'm also glad that I did not. I had dangerous complications during this pregnancy.  Had things gone poorly we would have lost it. We would have mourned, but it would likely have been harder to cope with if we had thought of it as a whole living person already. We have been very lucky and well cared for and, as a result, I have now come to think of this child as alive in the last few weeks before full term. We knew at 32 weeks and beyond that survival was very likely, and that brain development was beginning to leap forward. That's when I started to feel it was "alive." Before that, it was only the potential for life. In my mind, it's the difference between a caterpillar and a butterfly. There is a potential butterfly there, but it cannot be said to already be a butterfly when it is clearly still a caterpillar. 

This has been on my mind a lot lately because of my pregnancy complications. I had to have an emergency cerclage placed in the hopes of maintaining the pregnancy. It was a very painful and scary procedure, and there was no guarantee it would work.  I did it willingly because this is a wanted pregnancy. But what if I had my complications and decided maybe I didn't want the pregnancy at that point? A horrifying decision and I hope no one is ever in that position, but in a world without access to safe, legal abortions and contraception, it's a position I could easily imagine someone finding themselves in. Would someone like me be forced to undergo this surgery for the sake of an unwanted fetus? It makes me sick to even think about. I also had to have an MRI at one point. There's no proof that it is harmful to the baby, but could something like that be denied to me because someone somewhere, who's never met me or even glanced at my medical history, decided it wasn't worth the risk? 

I also think some of the problems in the way we frame abortion comes from the idea that death is the worst thing that can happen to a person. Personally, I do not believe that it is. Much worse, in my mind, would have been to give birth too soon to a child that lived its brief life in only pain and suffering before finally dying. That was my biggest fear during this pregnancy. If my choice was between that or terminate, I know unequivocally what my choice would be. It makes me so angry that anyone would try to stand in the way of that choice. The idea of being denied the ability to choose mercy for my own child makes me desperately sad. 

Editing to add: This post ended up longer than I intended. But like I said, this has been on my mind a lot lately. All that to say, everyone's situations and beliefs are different and I don't think we can, or should dictate such monumental decisions for each other. 

[Belugaloo]

34 minutes ago, BachelorToTheRapture said:

My doctor was super concerned about it, and it's listed on most combination pills that if you have aural/ocular migraines that you shouldn't take them. She said it puts you at higher risk of stroke and heart problems . 

I see it on planned parenthood's website, though looking other places it appears the research is mixed on how worried you should be. For me, I decided that with lots of family history of heart issues and stroke (1 grandparent had severe strokes, 2 have had triple or higher bypass surgery) I'll avoid anything that has a substitute that lowers my risk.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/birth-control-pill/how-safe-is-the-birth-control-pill

Wow. Thanks for the info! I will bring it up at my appt in April... I agree that if I can lower my risk, I should, esp when I take ADD medication which also messes with your HR/Blood Pressure. 

[Buzzard]

6 hours ago, VBOY9977 said:

Jinger sounding like a true fundie

 

Is the woman in grey with the child on her lap the midwife?  Interesting... 

[Iamtheway]

On 2/25/2019 at 10:16 PM, kmachete14 said:

Sadly, many of the 99% of Catholic using birth control don't get that the "sin" of BC is just as bad as gay marriage (gay sex is always closed to conception), and thus support horrible legislation or discrimination . . . forgetting about the log in their own eye . . . 

So if I knew that I was infertile sex with my husband would be a sin? And any kind of sex that is not man-woman-penetration is a sin? What if you’re pretty fertile but also 100% sure you’re not ovulating? How does this work with being joyfully availible?

Sometime I really wish I could believe in God. It must be awesome to explain anything that’s not logical away with Jesus. 

15 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

And can a baby exist separate from its mum? If you left it alone it would die pretty quickly. 

I’m pretty sure my 5-year old would die if we left him alone for long enough too but I think most people would agree that he is VERY alive. But after a certain point in the pregnancy the baby can definitly survive without their mother, not necessarily on their own but without any help from the woman that was pregnant. I personally think that is when life begins. 

I am firmly pro-choice because I think a woman’s body has to be her own to decide over. If someone else invades your body against your will you should always be allowed to defend yourself. That right shouldn’t go away because the intruder shares half your dna and can’t breath on their own yet. 

Logically if more life was always the best it would be benificial if we just killed a few people off and used their organs to save several other people. But I don’t think anyone is working on that one ...

[SilverBeach]

2 hours ago, Hashtag Blessed said:

I also think some of the problems in the way we frame abortion comes from the idea that death is the worst thing that can happen to a person.

I feel this way about assisted suicide. My mom was suffering so badly when she died at 91, on a ventilator and not coming off. I authorized removal of the vent, and she passed right away, so it wasn't suicide. But she should have been able to end her suffering when she wanted to, which may have been before I was ready to let her go. Death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person, unwilling suffering is. She died exactly one year ago today, and I miss her but I'm not sad because I did not want her unremitting pain to continue. Wonderful woman.

[TeaELSee]

3 hours ago, Buzzard said:

Is the woman in grey with the child on her lap the midwife?  Interesting..

I don’t think so, I don’t see the resemblance. Jinger had her baby a few hours away, (I forgot which city) so she doesn’t live in Laredo.