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JinJer 47: Sparking J-O-Y


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3 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

My question for evangelical church goers--where do you put the communion "wine" and bread if the pulpit is in the middle of the stage? 

This may explain why so many fundy weddings surprise me with assorted "stage props"--screens, etc. in the middle of the stage. I grew up mainline protestant, with the expectation of an altar in the middle (where you have candles, and communion goods on communion days) that you don't move or conceal. To my Methodist inner kid, it feels sacrilegious to conceal the altar during a wedding ceremony.

My church has little communion stations set up all around the worship center. 

Other churches I've seen have had the pastor/elders hold the wine and bread at the front and people come get it. Or I've also seen it just passed around in the little communion cups and the bread is the wafer. 

Like this: 

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12 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

My question for evangelical church goers--where do you put the communion "wine" and bread if the pulpit is in the middle of the stage? 

holy-communion-430294.jpg

There are lots of options. A common one is where ushers facilitate it being passed throughout the congregation. This method can create anxiety about dropping the wine or grape juice platter.

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30 minutes ago, wandering woman said:

I found Jeremy especially irritating in the Counting On episode last night. He thinks he is so wonderful for cooking a spicy meal and always has that annoying grin on his face. 

Same! I don't know if he thinks he's being charming, but I wanted to smack him when he was whining about his jerseys being moved to the garage. Like, you're a grown man, please get over yourself. I had to appreciate that Jana said pointblank she didn't feel bad for him.

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On 2/9/2019 at 4:27 PM, Kaylo said:

I think Jeremy’s goal is a Hillsong or Zoe-esque celebrity cool trendy church.

I actually think those are the types of churches Jeremy dislikes. 

Hes really into expository preaching and takes a traditional and text-dense approach to preaching. 

He’d love Hillsong numbers though. I do think he wants a large ministry. 

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33 minutes ago, OldFadedStar said:

My church has little communion stations set up all around the worship center. 

Other churches I've seen have had the pastor/elders hold the wine and bread at the front and people come get it. Or I've also seen it just passed around in the little communion cups and the bread is the wafer. 

Like this: 

RW508AB__17702.1370918054.1280.1280.jpg?

Those are the kinds of trays we use at my Presbyterian church. In our church's tradition, the deacons and elders of the church take trays of grape juice in little cups or bread cubes down the rows of pews and pass them to the congregation. Everyone who's participating takes one and waits until the pastor gives the signal to eat or drink together.

Add me to the list of people confused by having the pulpit front and center. Most of my attendance has been at Presbyterian or Catholic churches, and I've never seen one with the pulpit in the middle, just at the side. Even if there's not an altar per se, there's usually a table with candles or something service-related.

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I don't think I've ever gone to a church that has the pulpit in the center.  I've been to a lot of churches, although they've pretty much all been Presbyterian, Lutheran, Episcopal, Catholic, and Methodist.  The altar goes in the middle, the pulpit goes on the side.   

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On 2/12/2019 at 11:01 PM, HereticHick said:

My question for evangelical church goers--where do you put the communion "wine" and bread if the pulpit is in the middle of the stage? 

This may explain why so many fundy weddings surprise me with assorted "stage props"--screens, etc. in the middle of the stage. I grew up mainline protestant, with the expectation of an altar in the middle (where you have candles, and communion goods on communion days) that you don't move or conceal. To my Methodist inner kid, it feels sacrilegious to conceal the altar during a wedding ceremony.

In most churches in Germany (Protestant and Catholic) the pulpit is either on one side in the front or middle. Or above and slightly behind the alter. Which is obviously only possible because our church buildings are very old. 

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Spoiler

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And now that I think about it, ever mosque I've been in had the minbar (pulpit) on the side. I think the center of the wall has something signifying the direction of Mecca.

 

If you know go to Jeremy's church website and scroll down to the map, https://www.gcclaredo.com/  you can see the new church building from above. But they still haven't updated the church picture on the "About" page

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47 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

And now that I think about it, ever mosque I've been in had the minbar (pulpit) on the side. I think the center of the wall has something signifying the direction of Mecca.

 

If you know go to Jeremy's church website and scroll down to the map, https://www.gcclaredo.com/  you can see the new church building from above. But they still haven't updated the church picture on the "About" page

Interesting. The signs on the building on Google Street View describe that address as "Dominion Adult Day Care." 

Dominion ADC.PNG

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19 hours ago, Ali said:

holy-communion-430294.jpg

There are lots of options. A common one is where ushers facilitate it being passed throughout the congregation. This method can create anxiety about dropping the wine or grape juice platter.

::coughs:: Arcane fact of the day.

The use of individual communion cups in (some not all) Protestant churches and the subsequent waiter service to the pews was first suggested in the 1880s for reasons of hygiene not doctrine.  It didn't become widespread in the US until the 1890s, which was a pity, because it could have prevented quite a lot of diphtheria and tuberculosis in the congregations.  Prior to that people all sipped out of chalices.  If you are taking a sip of wine the alcohol might help with the germs, but grape juice is a rotten disinfectant.

13 hours ago, Cheetah said:

I don't think I've ever gone to a church that has the pulpit in the center.  I've been to a lot of churches, although they've pretty much all been Presbyterian, Lutheran, Episcopal, Catholic, and Methodist.  The altar goes in the middle, the pulpit goes on the side.   

It depends.  In older Baptist churches there is the same layout with the pulpit and supplementary lecterns to the sides, and the baptistry pool is under the altar.  

And don't forget that in Europe some of the churches are so old they were originally Catholic buildings, so that explains the architecture, with the nave, chancel (sanctuary), altar, optional rood screens and so forth.  

However, some evangelical and fundamentalist churches have done away with all that stuff.  Some have even done away with the altar (as it is seen as papist) completely.  There is an elevated stage to show off the theatrics of the preachers, who indeed stand in the middle.  If there is a table with a cloth and Bible on it, it is movable to be used for the Lord's supper.

After all, they don't have the Lord's Supper every day or even every week.  And in some extreme Fundamentalist churches (like Boerne Christian Assembly) the Patriarch or eldest son of the family goes up to the front of the church to fetch the bread and koolaid.  That is because women are not suitable to collect it and the man can distribute it to mom and children.  Or not, as he sees fit.

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I've only ever gone as a member to protestant, non-denominational churches, and the pastor has always preached from the center. Usually there is a band set up behind them and then a podium or music stand is already set out or moved over when the sermon is about to start. The church I grew up in was a megachurch and we only did communion once a month on sundays (every wed also). The elements were passed on little silver plates with wafers or tiny juice cups.

In the smaller, church-plant type churches I've gone to, including where I've been a member for 6 years, we typically only do communion once a month and there are one or two tables set up in front of the stage. During worship people go up and tear off a piece of bread and dip it in the juice and take on their own. We've been doing it every week recently, but non-denominational churches tend to consider communion differently than more traditional denominations. In non-denom circles, communion is much more a part of worship and symbolic remembrance imo than in more traditional churches where the focus is much more on the act as a sacrament.

My husband grew up Lutheran and at his Grandma's funeral the pastor kept talking about how her faith was evident to the end by her continued receiving of the lord's supper. That's just never something you'd hear in a non-denominational setting. You don't have to have ever taken communion or been baptized for salvation according to most non-denom protestants in the US. We don't do confirmation either and our (adult) baptism and wedding rites are usually way less traditional and regimented.

tldr; non-denominational churches don't have an altar because typically communion is viewed as a type of worship versus traditional protestant faiths which tend to elevate communion in a different way. Not saying this perfectly, but hopefully that makes sense!

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@theotherelise, I'm sure that is your experience with nondenominational churches.

However, I have to point out that there is no "we" in nondenominational.  

By definition a nondenominational church is one that is independent and does not subscribe to any denomination, or common creed or doctrine. 

They can run the gamut from touchy-feely mega-churches to cults controlled by megalomaniacs and everything in between.  See Gwen Shamblin and Hillsong for examples.

They usually have Baptist, Arminian, or Reformed/Calvinistic roots.  Some may be lovely and congregation led.  Some can be lovely and led by responsible elders and pastors.  Some can be as corrupt and as Extreme Fundamentalist and Patriarchal as Hell.  It is the luck of the draw.

Technically Grace Church San Antonio is nondenominational and supposedly congregation led.  I am sure Jeremy's church plant in Laredo is too.  At least on paper.  

Jeremy still preaches hateful beliefs.

 

 

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My experience with churches is that of @theotherelise. "Non-denominational" (yes that's a pretty loose term) churches tend to be less regimented as a result of doing away with liturgy and less emphasis on weekly sacraments. I don't think one or the other is bad or good. Yes Jeremy still preaches hateful beliefs and is currently my favorite fundie to snark on because of that. 

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15 hours ago, Cheetah said:

The altar goes in the middle, the pulpit goes on the side.  

The "low" churches I have attended all have had pulpits in the middle of the sanctuary. There is no separate altar. Communion supplies go in front of the pulpit, actually on a table before the first row of seats. Communion is usually just once a month in these churches.

The nondenominational label can be somewhat misleading. I would check the background of the church founders and pastors to see if some denominational stuff is part of what they actually believe and do. I was interested in a local church that advertised itself as non-denominational, and had a noncommittal name like Christ Life Center or something. Well, in the classes to learn more about the church, it comes out that the pastor husband and wife team were both from Pentecostal backgrounds and required speaking in tongues. This was not revealed during regular services, which were in your standard contemporary format, but it was actually a stealth Pentecostal church.

My most recent church renamed itself as a "community church", but it was actually part of a mainstream denomination. This also wasn't mentioned in regular services, and once again was only revealed during classes for potential members. No details about the denomination were discussed. The denomination as a whole is not open and affirming of non hetero-normative people, which clashes with my value system, and it almost split over this. The conservatives won, many who were quite nasty. It is also right-leaning, always asking folks to pray for the government (Dump), and I'm very liberal. This was a source of unrest for me, as I did join because I liked the integrated congregation and friendly atmosphere (that changed though). I do my due diligence now. I respect churches that don't engage in bait and switch and just say up front what they really are.

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23 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

My experience with churches is that of @theotherelise. "Non-denominational" (yes that's a pretty loose term) churches tend to be less regimented as a result of doing away with liturgy and less emphasis on weekly sacraments. I don't think one or the other is bad or good. Yes Jeremy still preaches hateful beliefs and is currently my favorite fundie to snark on because of that. 

I like my sacraments and the structure of a Catholic mass. I guess its just the way I was raised, in the church. 

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My daughter toured a newly constructed Mormon temple before it was consecrated when she lived in Arizona. She said it was beautiful. Mormons are everywhere in AZ. She also got a flyer left in her door from Steve Anderson's church of hate, which somehow ended up in her belongings when she moved back here. When she showed it to me, I shuddered. She immediately tossed it.

Just now, libgirl2 said:

I like my sacraments and the structure of a Catholic mass. I guess its just the way I was raised, in the church. 

My DD prefers the "high" church also. Nothing at all wrong with that.

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In the Anglican Churches they had a railing up front by the alter with a padded kneeler.  Every one drank out of a Chalice, which the Priest held and wiped off with a clean white cloth after each sip, one of the Alter people would bring the Host and place it in your hands.

I found this ritual very comforting and the wine was very delicious too!

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I have attended more liturgical-type churches also, and the ritual of it all was indeed comforting. There is something to be said for not trying to be the church of what's happening now (credit to Flip Wilson).

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It is definitely a personal preference thing. I did not enjoy visiting Lutheran services with my husband (either Missouri Synod that he was raised in or Evangelical Lutheran that he attended as an adult). I just didn't feel like I was ever fully able to engage in prayer or worship or communion because it was literally scripted on the paper in front of me. But that is probably hugely influenced by what I was comfortable with and how I found comfort/connection.

@Palimpsest perhaps I'm misreading it, but I feel like you took my comments about my experiences in non-denominational protestant churches as some kind of affirmation of every non-denom church or even of Vuolo's church. I was merely explaining why a center-set pulpit was not weird in the traditions I'm most familiar with.

It is absolutely true that non-denominational churches run the gamut. Labels definitely help sort the general beliefs and practices. All I can share it what I know and I tried to lay it out in such a way.

The mega-church I grew up in is not one I would recommend to others, it is not one I attend when visiting my parents (I go to my brother's church instead) and it is one that really made me understand some of the benefits of a denominational structure. It was led by a single head pastor and the doctrine taught ebbed and flowed depending on how he was feeling year to year. There was very little financial oversight and almost no transparency. No board or even deacons or elders or anything.

I worked there for a brief, desperate time after quitting my first job post-college due to severe depression, but I still resigned a few months in after being told to essentially lie. They had decided to redo the auditorium and surrounding breezeways meanwhile the city was going through extreme turmoil and other ministry areas were in need of actual repair. But they wanted us to tell anyone that pushed back that we were doing the updates because we had to bring the electrical, etc up to code. Thing is, we only had to bring it up to code because they wanted to tear down walls for the redo. 

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I go to an a conservative Anglican Church that used to be Episcopalian before it broke away because it did not agree with the direction the American Episcopalian church doctrines.  One stand at each end with one for readings and one for sermons. Wine and communion wafer served by priests and deacons to kneeling people  Who file up to the front.  

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24 minutes ago, theotherelise said:

@Palimpsest perhaps I'm misreading it, but I feel like you took my comments about my experiences in non-denominational protestant churches as some kind of affirmation of every non-denom church or even of Vuolo's church.

You are misreading my post.  Badly.  I made it very clear in my post that some nondenominational churches are a perfect fit for many people and are perfectly benign.  I believe I used the word "lovely" twice.  If you can find a nondenominational church you like and that is spiritually helpful, then power to you.

 However you appeared to use the word "we" to describe all nondenominational churches and, as we both agree, they run the gamut.  That was my point.

"Nondenominational" is a catch-all word that has been exploited by many.  Some churches may be wonderful.  But "nondenominational" has been used by the founders to promote churches that are extreme Fundamentalist cults, Prosperity Gospel scammers, TV evangelists selling miracle water, and churches that are completely morally corrupt in other ways.

I feel a duty to warn that it is always "Buyer Beware" when you pick any church.  Always do the scratch and sniff test, as @SilverBeach just described very well.  Interview the pastor of any church (denominational or not) and examine its beliefs and teachings carefully and critically.  Use discernment to find the right fit for you.

That is all.

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@Palimpsest right, yes, I did read the "lovely"s. Clearly I misread the tone of the rest of your post. I did not mean to say you were calling my church a cult! Just that it seemed you were correcting me as if I forgot some churches are bad and Jeremy is hateful. 

Regardless, I think we've probably shed light on the center pulpit situations.

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4 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

The nondenominational label can be somewhat misleading. I would check the background of the church founders and pastors to see if some denominational stuff is part of what they actually believe and do.

I've noticed a trend that many of the non-denominational churches in my area are really baptist churches that drop the baptist. I guess they think it is easier to draw people in with names like Life Church, Revelation Church, The Vision Church instead of Life Baptist Church or Vision Baptist church. 

Whenever I see a non-denominational church I tend to check what they believe. Unless they are like Zoe Church and won't tell you. I give the side eye to any church that wants to be as vague as possible about their beliefs. 

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@formergothardite, there is a Christian comic who was snickering about "non-demoniational" churches. He states "Non-denominational church? That's just a Baptist church with a cool website." I have considerable disdain for churches who try to be as vague as possible about their beliefs. 

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My experience with “nondenominational” churches is that the term is code for baptist. (Also Bible churches). Most shy away from calling themselves baptist and rely on showy concerts and performances as forms of worship to draw people in while selling themselves as hipsters. People really should look deep into the churches’ websites and find out what their actual beliefs are—looking beyond “we welcome everyone!” In my area you will find that they welcome everyone as long as everyone eventually follows their beliefs—men lead, women follow, women are meant to be subservient, with cherry-picked Bible verse quotes listed as justification.  But most people don’t look far enough into the actual theology a church follows. They like the rock concert style and a sermon that makes them feel good & righteous without too much reflection on the suffering of others and helping those in need. I know not everyone will have this experience with non-denoms, so don’t attack me. This is my experience. 

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