Josiah & Lauren 13: Drift, Duggars, Drift (Miscarriage Content Warning)

[SilverBeach]

48 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Tbh it makes me wonder at times why I'm part of a site where so many people think that's okay. 

There are a lot of us who don't think it is OK, some are afraid to say anything though. It isn't just the speculation, it's the extreme focus on bodily minutia that is offputting. I'm fat, I wore my maternity clothes long after delivery, and have always had a poochy midsection even during my short-lived thin phase. It doesn't make excessive bodily scrutiny any more acceptable because these women are baby factories. Lord knows that I am the last to defend fundies, and their pregnancies and babies don't interest me, but damn, sometimes the discussion just takes a ridiculous turn. 

And it is still acceptable to speculate about pregnancy based on the the thinnest evidence or no evidence at all. No rule against it. Some folks just don't care for it and that is their prerogative. I just leave a thread and don't return for a while if the content starts to bother me. I will probably say something first though, LOL. We don't all have to agree about everything. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by SilverBeach

[Greendoor]

My son is 22.  I finally got to my pre-pregnancy weight in March. 

Now I am "so thin".

I think we worry too much about the way bodies look, our own and others.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

We don't all have to agree about everything. 

God knows!

Fundies aside, as I give zero fucks, when a mindset so harmful to women overall is embraced here by so many it saddens me.  

I liken it to being a Trump supporter.  You can make pro-Trump posts as long as you are within the rules like everything else.  But to support someone who is actively harmful to women, people of color, immigrants, Muslims, the economically disenfranchised, the sick who desperately need health care....expect push back on why you're okay with the harm being caused by your pro-Trump mindset.

The body scrutiny enforces the mindset that women's bodies are in the public domain and it hurts all of us who have ever gained a little weight and had people speculate, even if only behind their back.  The find the bump game is often justified by the fact that in their world they are reduced to their uterus.

I think we should be better than that and it breaks my heart that we're not.

 

 

 

[TheMustardCardigan]

I haven't really seen anything that makes me uncomfortable given that Lauren is a public figure who has chosen to be part of a group whose claim to fame is having as many babies as possible for their fundamentalist army for God. People are acting like someone posted a picture of their regular Average Jane and are viciously calling her fat or something. No one here is saying Lauren is even overweight or anything other than a perfectly healthy 20-year-old girl... She's just been very public that she's trying to have a baby, she's part of the Duggar cult of babieeezzz for Jesus, and now there's more than one picture of her in maternity clothing and a couple pictures where her stomach has been cropped out or hidden, so people are speculating.  Wondering if she is pregnant does not have to mean a person is fat-shaming. Pregnancy is so interwoven into the central mission of this fundamentalist cult that it feels relevant to talk about clues that another Duggar woman may be about to announce she is expecting. Not everyone here has to agree with me or anyone else, but either this kind of talk is against the rules or it's not.

 

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 minutes ago, TheMustardCardigan said:

but either this kind of talk is against the rules or it's not.

See my Trump comment - things can be within the rules and still be offensive and garner comments.

There is a reason many people avoid the Duggar/Bates threads entirely and I see the wisdom in that.

I am personally unsettled with being part of a community where so many are so adamant about their right to perpetuate a mindset that harms women and need to figure out what that means for me.  I'm bowing out of this discussion.

 

[SilverBeach]

It doesn't have to be fat shaming, it can just be excessive bodily scrutiny, and being a public figure doesn't make it OK to engage in distasteful behavior toward that person. All the zooming in on pictures, and examination of very little things on a woman's body is what is suspect. Yes, once a pregnancy has been announced, talk about what that means (I always hate that another culture war soldier may be born into the cult, but I take no joy when anyone has a miscarriage), but no meaningful discussion is to be had in discussing clues that someone might be pregnant. I get that some enjoy this kind of discussion, and like previously said, there is no rule against it. So have at it. Those who don't enjoy it are free to speak up though, and at times may do so forcefully. That is OK. And those who do enjoy it are free to ignore what the critics say. Again, we don't all have to agree on everything.

[SilverBeach]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

See my Trump comment - things can be within the rules and still be offensive and garner comments.

There is a reason many people avoid the Duggar/Bates threads entirely and I see the wisdom in that.

I am personally unsettled with being part of a community where so many are so adamant about their right to perpetuate a mindset that harms women and need to figure out what that means for me.  I'm bowing out of this discussion.

 

I understand. I have bowed out/stepped away from many a discussion on FJ. Although the Duggars were my gateway fundies, I tread lightly in their threads. I'm kind of resigned to the fact that quite a bit of what I read in Duggarville will be problematic for me. I have spoke up in the past and got creamed for it! I agree that scrutinizing women's bodies is not useful and I have personally been a victim of this, which is one reason why it rubs me the wrong way.

I suggest a poll be done to see if the commentariat would support a hard and fast rule. Please don't think I support bodily scrutiny or any other mindset that harms women, but without a rule against it all I can do is speak out in opposition. It is sad that other women don't see the problem here. But, a majority of white women voted for Trump, so there's that. Sigh.

Oh, I would also like @Curious to weigh in.

[VelociRapture]

53 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I understand. I have bowed out/stepped away from many a discussion on FJ. Although the Duggars were my gateway fundies, I tread lightly in their threads. I'm kind of resigned to the fact that quite a bit of what I read in Duggarville will be problematic for me. I have spoke up in the past and got creamed for it! I agree that scrutinizing women's bodies is not useful and I have personally been a victim of this, which is one reason why it rubs me the wrong way.

I suggest a poll be done to see if the commentariat would support a hard and fast rule. Please don't think I support bodily scrutiny or any other mindset that harms women, but without a rule against it all I can do is speak out in opposition. It is sad that other women don't see the problem here. But, a majority of white women voted for Trump, so there's that. Sigh.

Oh, I would also like @Curious to weigh in.

The body scrutiny honestly makes me pretty uncomfortable for a few reasons. I don’t know whether a firm rule banning it would help though. I think the less official rules we have the better. 

That said, I’m not sure whether this should fall under the no internet medical diagnosing rule already in existence or not. Pregnancy is technically a medical condition, but it’s also an important aspect of their specific Fundie culture. Its difficult for me to know where the official line should be drawn in a way that allows discussion without causing us to turn into the comments section on a tabloid*. 

(I’m not saying it should qualify under that rule. It only just occurred to me and I’m kind of curious what other people think.)

That said, I agree with others who have said the speculation about Lauren is a bit more troubling for them. She and Si have made it clear this was something they’ve struggled with emotionally and I think they’ve also been pretty clear she isn’t pregnant recently as well. I don’t know... I just feel like these people have no problem sharing their pregnancy news when they’re ready and it just seems kind of pointless to me to constantly speculate about it. I do understand others don’t agree though and I respect our right to agree to disagree on that. I’m likely just going to leave others who are better at voicing their thoughts on this to speak up in the future because I don’t think I’ve done a decent job if that in recent months. 

*I honestly don’t know how to word what I’m trying to say in that part. That was the best I could do. 

[Palimpsest]

40 minutes ago, TheMustardCardigan said:

given that Lauren is a public figure who has chosen to be part of a group whose claim to fame is having as many babies as possible for their fundamentalist army for God.

You know, that is too often used as an excuse for really vicious crap.  Lauren has recently  had a miscarriage.  FFS, can I even begin to say how tasteless and downright ugly I find belly scrutiny in this case, even if she is geared towards breeding arrows for God's army.

Yes, Lauren is a Fundie.  She married Josiah, whose parents put the whole family on TV when he was still a minor.  He wasn't quite born into Reality TV captivity, but was still a minor.  And there must be huge pressure on them both to keep that gravy train going.  Under-educated, young, brainwashed Fundies ... forced into being "public figures."

This is a "general you" thing, not aimed specifically at the person I quoted.

If some members are saying that they find certain comments on here "body shaming" of women and objectionable, how about taking a step back and reassessing the situation instead of getting all defensive.  Have some respect for your fellow members' opinions.

And, look into a mirror, think back about your posts, and see if you like yourselves.  I've snarked on Fundies in a way I have regretted in the past.  I try to do better these days. 

Please reassess what you are doing and saying.

Frankly, if it were put up to a vote on FJ tomorrow (it won't be):  "Should we do away with the Duggar Forum completely."  I  would vote yes. 

That is having just read this discussion.  I don't usually think that way.  There are a lot of posters here whoI like and respect.  And people have a lot of fun here and good discussions.  But right now I am disgusted.

Please, everyone, cool your jets, and consider what you are doing and why you are here.   Is it to discuss the evils of Fundamentalism or to watch for bumps, be petty and BEC, and to verge on body shaming, just because you can.

I'm out.  And I think I need a hot shower.

[Bobology]

It is fine to just sit back and wait for one of them to announce a pregnancy.  I don't speculate but only because I'm not interested in doing that; it certainly is not a trigger for me. I skip over a lot of stuff on the threads, mostly thread drift, including pregnancy speculations. I understand others' interests, this being a forum that is based on Christian fundamentalism and getting pregnant quickly is one of the things some fundamentalists want to do and expect other fundamentalists to do. 

What I think is more egregious is posting about someone's facial appearance and trying to tie it in to a condition, like Garrett's eye (one eye is too small, he must have xyz!) and even worse, someone pondering aloud that Kelly Jo looks like someone who has had a stroke.  A 50 year-old woman's face is not as symmetrical and perfect-looking as it should be?  Really? That's more damaging to women, in my opinion, than observing possible signs a woman in this cult/group might be pregnant. I could give those downvotes or write a shaming response, but it really isn't necessary. Someone can (and always will) have opinions different from mine.  

BTW, I think Garrett's eyes and Kelly Jo's face are just fine, not that it matters. These are just the first two examples I could come up with. 

My post came up immediately after the Palimpsest post above. If I had seen what was written there I would have moved on without contributing anything. Thank you, Palimpsest, those are wise words.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Bobology
Thanking Palimpsest

[SilverBeach]

1 minute ago, VelociRapture said:

I don’t know whether a firm rule banning it would help though. I think the less official rules we have the better. 

I agree, was just throwing an idea out there as I have no idea how a vote would turn out. There's  good chance I would be on the losing side, LOL. I maintain that discussing a pregnancy after it has been announced is different than extreme speculation about the the existence, or not, of a gestation. Prohibiting extreme body scrutiny under the no medical diagnosing rule is a technical possibility but I don't know if it addresses the real problem. I think the line should be drawn when the pregnancy is announced, when discussing specific individuals. General discussion is fine, but specific commentary about a specific body is not.

11 minutes ago, Bobology said:

BTW, I think Garrett's eyes and Kelly Jo's face are just fine, not that it matters. These are just the first two examples I could come up with. 

Thankfully, I never saw this mess. I don't read much in the Bates area, may click on something when it pops up in my feed as that is how I navigate the site. I skip over a helluva lot on here.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

9 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

He's been banned from so many countries now that he's probably going to stay at home.  Pity the people of Phoenix Earth who can't get rid of him.

FTTY

[RosyDaisy]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. These people are actively working to take rights away from others and working to create a theocracy. They are evil, hateful racist, misogynistic, homophobic (and a dozen other phobic) assholes spreading hate all over social media and everywhere else they can. I don't care about their feelings. They sure as hell don't care about others. They need heavy doses of their own medicine.

[luv2laugh]

13 hours ago, Kelsey said:

It's weird to me how every woman in the picture has basically the same long flowing locks. I think that is a nice hairstyle and they all look good but it's weird that none of them choose something different. I feel like it was truly a choice, at least one of them would choose something different from time to time.

In the Dillard blog, Dwreck wrote that long hair and long skirts doesn’t make someone a Christian. I interpreted that to be a dig to the Duggars. Dwreck’s Mom works, has short hair, and wears pants. She is still fundie but not of the prairie frumper fringe type. He also praised his mom for going to grad school. He’s rocking the Duggar boat.

Pregnancy speculation:

I am honestly more surprised when one of them isn’t pregnant. Also, Lauren has a public platform. She can delete Instagram and refuse to be on the show. None of them will do that because of Godbobber & money.

Edited May 20, 2019 by luv2laugh

[zcccrv]

I skimmed through some comments on Dlisted recentely, I guess the topic was the Duggars, and one person wrote, paraphrasing: I used to read about the Duggars at Freejinger but stopped when it became Woke Olympics. It made me think (it also made me a bit defensive because I like FJ but that is not relevant). I don't comment on possible pregnancies because I find the discussion boring. But I don't think it's awful or affects women in general. Pregnancy is fundie women's official job. It is the reason why we are here discussing them and it is how they make a living. If a person is a model or a diet coach or a fitness instructor or a sportsman.., he/she also has their body inseperably tied into their job. It is not about genders. For me, someone's worldview trumps their gender role. I can't relate to Kim Kardashian and I also can't relate to Lauren Duggar, despite all three of us being female. And I don't think I should. 

[Smee]

I like pregnancy speculation when it’s lighter - e.g. “who will be next?” I wouldn’t want to do away with it altogether. And I’ll admit I’ve participated in comments like on the pic of Kendra, Lauren and Abby where JD’s hands were over Abby’s stomach just after Kendra had announced. 

The zooming in on group pics of over a dozen people sitting down, to scrutinise one woman (when she’s wearing a dress with a tie under the breasts that is going to make her torso look different to those in a T-shirt or whatever) feels different and it struck me as weirdly obsessive TBH. Why Lauren? Jill’s birthday posts got “the bottom half isn’t in the frame, I wonder if she’s wearing shorts” but Lauren’s got “the bottom half isn’t visible, I wonder if she’s pregnant” and hyper-focus on the couple of pics where her torso IS visible. 

While I agree that I don’t really care how fundies feel about FJ (they don’t have to read here, they KNOW it’s full of fundie-haters and it’s not like we’re saying this stuff over on their personal social media), I’m struggling with my body image at the moment and I did have a minor sook to myself about how I look way more pregnant than she does and wondering how many strangers I cross in the day privately wonder to themselves. My self-loathing is not the fault or responsibility of anyone on here, but yeah... between the scrutiny of Lauren and the endless talk about Zoo’s diet/weight in the Anderson thread, FJ isn’t really the most encouraging place to be.

[formergothardite]

8 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. These people are actively working to take rights away from others and working to create a theocracy. They are evil, hateful racist, misogynistic, homophobic (and a dozen other phobic) assholes spreading hate all over social media and everywhere else they can. I don't care about their feelings. They sure as hell don't care about others. They need heavy doses of their own medicine.

It isn't just their feelings, it is playing into the culture that women's bodies exist for people to scrutinize and point out any weight gain. 

In the Bates threads there is a discussion on moving the threads away from posting every single picture of them and talking about their clothes and how cute their kids are, because that isn't what FJ is for. Someone then asked if the conversation should just be pure hate, and the answer is no. There is plenty of ways to discuss the dangers of fundamentalism without being purely hateful.  Pointing out every single not flat stomach does nothing to combat or bring to light their fundie beliefs. It isn't even a discussion of their fundie beliefs, it is just a "is she pregnant because she doesn't have a perfectly flat stomach" discussion, and apparently if you really want to discuss that you can do it on their social media. 

[Glasgowghirl]

For me their is a fine line between snark and hate, as someone who has some body insecurities and depression, I'd hate for someone to be doing that to me online, so no way would I do that to anyone else. I don't care what their religious beliefs are or if I dislike things about them. 

The fake pregnancy rumours have already caused them upset and Si had to set the record straight after Pickles and others spread that rumour, as a group we are better than that.

 

[SilverBeach]

10 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. These people are actively working to take rights away from others and working to create a theocracy. They are evil, hateful racist, misogynistic, homophobic (and a dozen other phobic) assholes spreading hate all over social media and everywhere else they can. I don't care about their feelings. They sure as hell don't care about others. They need heavy doses of their own medicine.

I don't care about their feelings either, and I totally agree that these folks are not as benign as they appear. I never squee over their hair, babies, weddings, pregnancies, none of if, as they are all ardent Trump supporters (except Ben and none of this applies to him).  Nonetheless, I dislike the zeroing in on belly pictures and over the top body scrutiny, it seems creepy to me. It's more an issue of what FJ is about, not them. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by SilverBeach

[SassyPants]

11 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I don't care about their feelings either, and I totally agree that these folks are not as benign as they appear. I never squee over their hair, babies, weddings, pregnancies, none of if, as they are all ardent Trump supporters (except Ben and none of this applies to him).  Nonetheless, I dislike the zeroing in on belly pictures, it seems creepy to me. It's more an issue of what FJ is about, not them. 

Yes to almost all of this, but I am in the camp that these folks are on TV solely because of the the freak nature of their parents’ reproductive history, no matter how much JB and M tried to cloak it in “our family’s ministry.” People tuned because they wanted to see how a family that marketed itself on “14 kids and pregnant  again....” or “Counting On” operated. So people are going  to naturally look at the belly of a woman who makes her money in such a way, similar to the way some people look at Arnold Schwarzenegger’s biceps. Is it creepy, yep. Is selling your reproductive proclivities creepy, yes.  

Like many, I just scroll on by, but you can bet that even most of us who do not comment on it, do look. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by SassyPants

[SilverBeach]

1 minute ago, SassyPants said:

So people are going  to naturally look at the belly of a women who makes her money in such a way

Some people, I guess. Not me. Not interested. This whole discussion is weird. 

[SassyPants]

Just now, SilverBeach said:

Some people, I guess. Not me. Not interested. This whole discussion is weird. 

Of course it is weird, but so is having kid after kid that you can not support without selling them and their special moments, including some private, personal moments. The whole concept is beyond weird, and borders on abuse, IMO. 

[VelociRapture]

6 hours ago, Smee said:

I like pregnancy speculation when it’s lighter - e.g. “who will be next?” I wouldn’t want to do away with it altogether. And I’ll admit I’ve participated in comments like on the pic of Kendra, Lauren and Abby where JD’s hands were over Abby’s stomach just after Kendra had announced. 

The zooming in on group pics of over a dozen people sitting down, to scrutinise one woman (when she’s wearing a dress with a tie under the breasts that is going to make her torso look different to those in a T-shirt or whatever) feels different and it struck me as weirdly obsessive TBH. Why Lauren? Jill’s birthday posts got “the bottom half isn’t in the frame, I wonder if she’s wearing shorts” but Lauren’s got “the bottom half isn’t visible, I wonder if she’s pregnant” and hyper-focus on the couple of pics where her torso IS visible. 

While I agree that I don’t really care how fundies feel about FJ (they don’t have to read here, they KNOW it’s full of fundie-haters and it’s not like we’re saying this stuff over on their personal social media), I’m struggling with my body image at the moment and I did have a minor sook to myself about how I look way more pregnant than she does and wondering how many strangers I cross in the day privately wonder to themselves. My self-loathing is not the fault or responsibility of anyone on here, but yeah... between the scrutiny of Lauren and the endless talk about Zoo’s diet/weight in the Anderson thread, FJ isn’t really the most encouraging place to be.

I think this sums it up well for me. I don’t think discussing it in general should be banned outright because people are right - these families did make their names off of their fertility. I think it can definitely be argued whether the individual second gen couples have continued to do so or not. Is it enough that they’re simply on the show? Or does the fact that most of them haven’t discussed having as many as God gives them in years enough to kind of exclude them from that? 

I will say I do think there’s a huge difference between light hearted stuff like “According to past timing they’re due!” or “I wonder if they’ll have another soon?” and more intense scrutiny like, “Lauren’s stomach isn’t completely flat!” or “Jill’s stomach isn’t visible at all in these photos!” or “Whitney's face is so much rounder in this one photo!” The zooming in on specific people that you pointed out really does cross a personal line for me though - that just seems too obsessive. 

ETA: And just to add, I think this is turning out to be an interesting and helpful conversation so far. We won’t be able to really figure out what we feel as a site or understand how others think regarding this if we aren’t willing to talk and listen to one another. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by VelociRapture

[SassyPants]

And this discussion is another reason why I think the Dillards are likely in the most favorable position to lead more standard lives and move away from the craziness that fundiedom brings to a family. Yes, their beliefs are awful, but at least, at this moment, they have broken that chain for their children. I hope the next step is getting Jill and the boys solid, well rounded educations. I have hope.

[SilverBeach]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Of course it is weird, but so is having kid after kid that you can not support without selling them and their special moments, including some private, personal moments. The whole concept is beyond weird, and borders on abuse, IMO. 

I don't know that this is weird as much as it is immoral. I can't stand them or the way they live. In any event, doing something bad because others do it is not much of a justification.

42 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I don’t think discussing it in general should be banned outright

I agree, and this is certainly something I never advocated. I just think some of the discussion that is hyper-focused on individual minute bodily changes is tasteless and borders on being salacious.