Josiah & Lauren 13: Drift, Duggars, Drift (Miscarriage Content Warning)

[lizzybee]

My good friend recently went through the guardianship to adoption process. From what I understand, once the child was signed over in guardianship, the child was effectively her responsibility until said child became an adult (I am repeating "the child" because I am really not wanting any identity markers here). I recently attended the adoption hearing for this LO, and it was such a happy day. The family gave the child their last name, filed to change a SS number, etc. etc. and now they are effectively the parents in every way. If it is like this with Tyler then legally the Duggars are completely responsible for Tyler just like he's theirs. They haven't filed to take the place of Tyler's mother in the sense of adoption and it seems like they're promoting and supportive of him continuing to have a healthy relationship with her. That said, when it comes to making the decisions about Tyler's life, that'll come from JB and Michelle, and that's what his mother would have agreed to do. If I had to hazard a guess, the main reason why they aren't adopting Tyler and making him officially a Duggar would be because they essentially are leaving the status of mother to their niece. But the idea that they wouldn't adopt because x,y,z is kind of wrong here because they've taken him on in every way but name if their guardianship works the way my BFF's did. 

[SassyPants]

2 hours ago, bal maiden said:

Do you guys all seriously agree that she is a mother then, for having carried a zygote for a few weeks? I understand that the things Josiah said could be helpful in supporting her through her grief (although much of my own grief surrounding my miscarriages was that I wasn’t to be a mother, so I personally wouldn’t have found that much comfort),  but since the user base here leans pro choice, I am really surprised at the reaction to Josiah’s post. Yes, he was being very supportive, within the framework of their life-begins-at-conception framework of beliefs, but I am curious as to whether the pro life narrative has penetrated American society to such an extent that we cannot critique it when someone claims motherhood based upon a few weeks of pregnancy? Especially since the Duggars themselves are strong critics of other forms of self identification such as non binary or transgender identification. 

 

I’m not trying to flame here, just for clarity. I am honestly shocked and surprised by this forum’s reaction, and trying to make sense of how much the pro life narrative has gained hegemonic status in the US... happy to hear other perspectives.

Personally, for myself, I would not consider myself a mother. I can’t say what other may or may not believe. When I was pregnant with my first, I did not expect others to recognize me as a mother on Mother’s Day.

[VelociRapture]

@bal maiden I agree with others who have already responded. I didn’t consider myself a mother after my own loss, but I can respect the fact that others feel differently following their’s. If Lauren was already feeling maternal and protective then that’s something that she felt and that’s ok. And if Si acknowledging that in a public way helped her on what might have been a difficult day for her than that’s ok too. Every woman is unique and will view their pregnancy experience in different ways.

And as I said before, if this was meant specifically as an anti-choice statement it would have been blatantly obvious since subtly is not something the Duggars seem capable of. Did it make me look twice given their views on abortion rights? A bit. But Lauren and Si have every right to view their personal experience in whatever way feels best for them. When they start posting general anti-choice bullshit again (and we all know they will) I will have a problem with that. The difference is that one statement is attempting to police all women and the other is explaining their personal experience though. I’m just not ok with telling people they don’t have a right to feel however they may feel about  experiences they went through themselves. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

4 hours ago, bal maiden said:

Do you guys all seriously agree that she is a mother then, for having carried a zygote for a few weeks? I understand that the things Josiah said could be helpful in supporting her through her grief (although much of my own grief surrounding my miscarriages was that I wasn’t to be a mother, so I personally wouldn’t have found that much comfort),  but since the user base here leans pro choice, I am really surprised at the reaction to Josiah’s post. Yes, he was being very supportive, within the framework of their life-begins-at-conception framework of beliefs, but I am curious as to whether the pro life narrative has penetrated American society to such an extent that we cannot critique it when someone claims motherhood based upon a few weeks of pregnancy? Especially since the Duggars themselves are strong critics of other forms of self identification such as non binary or transgender identification. 

 

I’m not trying to flame here, just for clarity. I am honestly shocked and surprised by this forum’s reaction, and trying to make sense of how much the pro life narrative has gained hegemonic status in the US... happy to hear other perspectives.

Personally no I don't consider her a mother but that's me personally I know that she and Josiah consider themselves to be parents so to me if they want to consider it a baby so be it. I find it weird but then I also find naming miscarriages weird but have friends that do that and I don't say a word if it makes them feel better then whatever. 

5 hours ago, PainfullyAware said:

*TW for miscarriage reference 

Did anyone see Anna's comment on Si's Instagram mother's day post? He was essentially recognizing Lauren being a mother despite having miscarried. I thought it was a thoughtful post, an acknowledgement of their loss and what it meant to them. So what does Anna say about this? "Happy Mother's Day!!"

So insensitive and hurtful to Lauren. Trust me, mother's day is not a happy day for women with miscarriage losses or infertility. Is Anna just that obtuse or is she on some kind of passive aggressive rampage (like trolling Derick for not mentioning Michelle in his mother's day blog post)?! 

I think Anna wanted to say something and she didn't know what to say so she just went with a general Happy Mothers day. I don't think she was doing it to be cruel. I think she's just legitimately not that deep of a thinker. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 hours ago, seraaa said:

I think it's always complicated and subjective. If you fall pregnant and expect to carry that pregnancy to term, you may begin to feel like a mother. I don't think that being pro-choice and acknowledging that is necessarily in conflict. 

Part of the reason why I'm pro-choice is that I recognise that there so many variables, of circumstance, yes, but also of attitude and feeling. People should be able to figure out what it is they want and need to do. That extends to how you deal with not being pregnant any more, IMO. Rushing in to police how someone relates to their own pregnancy - their own body - is not the thing.

I imagine that grieving the loss of a wanted pregnancy is very hard. If she felt like a mother, I wouldn't be one to tell her she doesn't or isn't one. Her feelings are her feelings. Who is anyone to tell her she shouldn't, you know? 

Beautifully put.  I couldn't agree more.

[Kelsey]

I wouldn't consider her a mother either but it's clear that she does. It might be a coping method for now that she'll drop after (if) she has a successful pregnancy. I doubt she'd announce the birth as "our second baby."

I had a miscarriage at about the same time after seeing the heart beat. I have never considered myself a mother. In my eyes, I did not mother a child. I was sick for a few weeks in attempt to make a child but it didn't work out (unfortunately). It was a much wanted pregnancy after 5 years of trying.

[Glasgowghirl]

I can't imagine what mother's Day was like for Lauren, she truly believes that she is a mother and going through that and having four of your sister in law's pregnant must be tough.

Josiah's post was so thoughtful and I'm sure a great comfort to both Lauren and some people in her situation. I don't care if it has a pro life message in it either. He was able to convey his feelings in that post and be heartfelt in expressing his love for his wife on a difficult day, in a way most of his family can't do. Michelle and Jim Bob post birthday messages to their children and they seem like messages you'd type to someone you barely know.

I don't think Anna meant to be insensitive and I don't think Josiah and Lauren will see it that way either.

[Smee]

When I was pregnant with my second, there was a woman in my due date group (on another forum) who went in for her 20 week anatomy scan and discovered that her son had a heart defect incompatible with life. She chose to terminate the pregnancy, but gave the baby a name and a burial. If mother’s day happened to fall a few months later, before she had a healthy live baby, would we object to her calling herself a mother?

I wouldn’t, even though she had an abortion and I would not want to limit her access to abortions. Because to me it’s not about the baby’s gestation, it’s that motherhood was something she had begun to identify with and change her life around. I don’t see it as a pro-choice/pro-life thing at all, personally.

[theotherelise]

I've thought about this a lot as I am going through IVF right now. We're genetically testing any embryos we get, and while it will be sad and I'm sure I'll grieve when we hear the number of embryos going down (from fertilization to day 5 of development) and then if we find out some are incompatible with life or have genetic abnormalities, I know that I wouldn't feel the same about the loss of those embryos as I would if we transferred an embryo, got a positive blood test, and then went in for a scan and the development had stopped. As my husband says, "you wouldn't freeze a baby for years and then go thaw it out, that's how I know they're different." The wantedness, the intention to gestate to term, that changes things for me from being a fetus to a baby.

How you feel about a loss is extremely personal. I have friends who have had blighted ovum miscarriages and they talk about seeing their babies in heaven. Sadly, there was never an embryo in a blighted ovum pregnancy. But if that brings them comfort, by all means! I even believe in a heaven, but I don't think my grandpa or other loved ones are looking down on me or that I can know they are "present" because of a bird out the window (my aunt's belief), but whatever, you do you!

I don't have any problem with people believing life begins the moment sperm fertilizes the egg. Many of us have to grapple with when we would believe life begins in our own worldview. (If you do infertility treatments, you have to spend way more time thinking about this stuff!) And that may change depending on what you've been through, which is okay. The problem is with mandating others' actions based on your beliefs. 

At support group on Wednesday (it's Christian-based), the facilitator asked me what I would do if we found out an embryo had down syndrome. I said we wouldn't transfer it and would donate it to science or discard it or something. But if I'd gotten pregnant spontaneously and found out my baby had down syndrome while I was pregnant, I wouldn't terminate. (I don't want to outlaw that choice for others though). And I don't think people with down syndrome are worth less or shouldn't receive every possible medical, social, and educational support possible. 

But for some people, those situations are all identical. For them, me saying I would not transfer a down syndrome positive embryo is essentially the same as saying I would murder a baby with down syndrome after it was born.

Were there pro-life overtones in Si's post? Probably, they absolutely believe life begins at conception. But it didn't sound that different to me from others I know who lost a wanted pregnancy, even if they support some level of reproductive choice.

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

20 hours ago, bal maiden said:

Do you guys all seriously agree that she is a mother then, for having carried a zygote for a few weeks? I understand that the things Josiah said could be helpful in supporting her through her grief (although much of my own grief surrounding my miscarriages was that I wasn’t to be a mother, so I personally wouldn’t have found that much comfort),  but since the user base here leans pro choice, I am really surprised at the reaction to Josiah’s post. Yes, he was being very supportive, within the framework of their life-begins-at-conception framework of beliefs, but I am curious as to whether the pro life narrative has penetrated American society to such an extent that we cannot critique it when someone claims motherhood based upon a few weeks of pregnancy?

I just want to put it out there for anyone who wants to know - you don't "carry a zygote for a few weeks". a zygote is the first single diploid cell formed by two haploid gametes, for any species that undergoes sexual reproduction. It doesn't last very long. In humans, by the time it's divided into 8 cells, those 8 cells recognize as a single unit. ONE WEEK after fertilization it implants, and the embryo spends it's second week growing aggressively into the uterus. By week 4, around the time when a lot of women realize they're pregnant, the 3 primitive tissue layers are already distinguishable, it has begun to fold from a blob into a little tube, and it is completely attached to and dependent on the woman carrying it. It's very quick and particular, and I'm perpetually amazed at how precise fertility medicine is for this reason and more.

Every person has the right to define what life means - their life, and any other life they're responsible for. That's what "choice" is. I don't doubt for a minute that Lauren felt love and responsibility to her embryo from the moment she learned it existed, and that's hers and Josiah's own business. They can make public statements about their own business; it's once they go back to making obnoxious intrusive claims about other people's business that I think most pro-choice FJers have a problem with. I personally think Anna's comment was intended to be in solidarity, recognizing Lauren's feelings. Anna's had a miscarriage too. 

[bal maiden]

6 minutes ago, ihaveanexamintwodays said:

I just want to put it out there for anyone who wants to know - you don't "carry a zygote for a few weeks". a zygote is the first single diploid cell formed by two haploid gametes, for any species that undergoes sexual reproduction. It doesn't last very long. In humans, by the time it's divided into 8 cells, those 8 cells recognize as a single unit. ONE WEEK after fertilization it implants, and the embryo spends it's second week growing aggressively into the uterus. By week 4, around the time when a lot of women realize they're pregnant, the 3 primitive tissue layers are already distinguishable, it has begun to fold from a blob into a little tube, and it is completely attached to and dependent on the woman carrying it. It's very quick and particular, and I'm perpetually amazed at how precise fertility medicine is for this reason and more.

Every person has the right to define what life means - their life, and any other life they're responsible for. That's what "choice" is. I don't doubt for a minute that Lauren felt love and responsibility to her embryo from the moment she learned it existed, and that's hers and Josiah's own business. They can make public statements about their own business; it's once they go back to making obnoxious intrusive claims about other people's business that I think most pro-choice FJers have a problem with. I personally think Anna's comment was intended to be in solidarity, recognizing Lauren's feelings. Anna's had a miscarriage too. 

Thank you for correcting me on the science! I thought it was a zygote up until about 8 weeks, but then, I am a sociologist, not a biologist  

I do agree with your definition of choice here, and also agree that it's Lauren's (and somewhat Josiah's, but more Lauren's) own business. But they're making it our business by making it a public post, which contributes to the overarching anti choice discourse that is becoming increasingly pervasive in the US, it seems. 

 

[twoandthrough]

3 hours ago, ihaveanexamintwodays said:

Every person has the right to define what life means - their life, and any other life they're responsible for. That's what "choice" is. I don't doubt for a minute that Lauren felt love and responsibility to her embryo from the moment she learned it existed, and that's hers and Josiah's own business. They can make public statements about their own business; it's once they go back to making obnoxious intrusive claims about other people's business that I think most pro-choice FJers have a problem with. I personally think Anna's comment was intended to be in solidarity, recognizing Lauren's feelings. Anna's had a miscarriage too. 

I absolutely agree. I am nearly certain that Anna was sincerely wishing Lauren a happy mother's day... because they both consider her to be a mother now after her miscarriage. I think it was in support, not being insensitive. 

[TheMustardCardigan]

On 5/16/2019 at 1:59 PM, bal maiden said:

Do you guys all seriously agree that she is a mother then, for having carried a zygote for a few weeks? 

Honestly, no, I don't agree she is a mother.

My feelings are this: I think it was a positive to see Josiah as a supportive partner to Lauren in a community where they think God does things to reward and punish people. I think it's really sad that Lauren has a ton of pressure on her to pop out babies ASAP, thus making the miscarriage even more emotionally challenging for a 19 year old girl without a whole lot of life experience. 

But I would not consider her a mother. It's never an argument I'd pick with someone-- if I had a friend who considered herself a mother after a miscarriage, I'd never tell her she wasn't. I'd let her make her own choice about how she feels about it because it's her life and whether she calls herself a mother or not does not affect my life at all. I'd just be quietly supportive and do what I could to be a good friend. I do think with the wave of terrible actions by state legislatures in the US, the post may be hitting people a little differently now. 

The other layer of this issue for me is that the Duggars are vehemently opposed to trans people and their rights to exist and be who they are. To them, Lauren can identify as a mother even though that's not really consistent with biology, but they believe trans people should not be able to identify as a gender that is different than the one they were assigned at birth and actively fight against trans rights.

[Iamtheway]

On 5/16/2019 at 10:04 PM, SassyPants said:

Personally, for myself, I would not consider myself a mother. I can’t say what other may or may not believe. When I was pregnant with my first, I did not expect others to recognize me as a mother on Mother’s Day.

Miniway is 5 and I still have trouble thinking about myself as a mother. A mother is a grown up, my mum is a mother, I’m still trying to figure out my own life. This morning we had chocolate milk and cookies for breakfast in front of the tv. I’m really more of a bad influence on him.

I did not consider myself a mother after my loss or during pregnancy. I was on my way to become a mother and I became one when Miniway was born. But that is my personal view and we all know Lauren believes life starts at conception and feels like she has lost a child. And unlike her I actually believe in her right to define herself any way she wants. 

21 hours ago, Kelsey said:

I wouldn't consider her a mother either but it's clear that she does. It might be a coping method for now that she'll drop after (if) she has a successful pregnancy. I doubt she'd announce the birth as "our second baby."

I had a miscarriage at about the same time after seeing the heart beat. I have never considered myself a mother. In my eyes, I did not mother a child. I was sick for a few weeks in attempt to make a child but it didn't work out (unfortunately). It was a much wanted pregnancy after 5 years of trying.

A big cyber hug to you! I also misscarried a much wanted pregnancy after five years of trying and I know how much it sucks! 

I hope you are getting lots of love, support and help and that you will one day have your own Minikel to spoil rotten. ♥️

[AussieKrissy]

11 hours ago, Iamtheway said:

Miniway is 5 and I still have trouble thinking about myself as a mother. A mother is a grown up, my mum is a mother, I’m still trying to figure out my own life. This morning we had chocolate milk and cookies for breakfast in front of the tv. I’m really more of a bad influence on him.

I did not consider myself a mother after my loss or during pregnancy. I was on my way to become a mother and I became one when Miniway was born. But that is my personal view and we all know Lauren believes life starts at conception and feels like she has lost a child. And unlike her I actually believe in her right to define herself any way she wants. 

A big cyber hug to you! I also misscarried a much wanted pregnancy after five years of trying and I know how much it sucks! 

I hope you are getting lots of love, support and help and that you will one day have your own Minikel to spoil rotten. ♥️

That’s exactly what I needed to read today. I think the same and my daughter had fairy floss and a packet of chips for lunch today. 

[GnomeCat]

Is Lauren wearing Jinger's maternity dress?

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

it does look super similar, doesn't it? I don't think it is, the collar area looks different to me, but it's hard to tell from the photos.

[Perrierwithlemon]

Yes???? I want to say yes??? The color looks different, but it could just be the lighting... Reminds me of that "is this dress blue & black or white & gold?" meme!

I would think it likely for Jinger to get rid of a bunch of old clothes before her big move. She might have offered her old clothes to her sisters/sisters-in-law, as she is one of the more fashionable(?) Duggars. Perhaps Lauren looks up to her for fashion inspiration and liked the dress because it aligned with her own modesty standards?

[Ash]

Lauren's dress has buttons down the front. Jinger's does not.

[GnomeCat]

Lauren's dress has buttons down the front. Jinger's does not.

Idk, I think Jinger's has buttons too. He hair is in the way of the top of the dress in most of the photos.

 

[just_ordinary]

21 minutes ago, Ash said:

Lauren's dress has buttons down the front. Jinger's does not.

I actually think it does. You just cannot see them very well on the photo.

They are more visible in this photo.

I think this post would be cruel if she isn’t pregnant. People will recognise the dress and her stomach area is hidden. This will lead to curious questions and assumptions on her SM profile. And while I think that’s rude they must know what they are doing. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, just_ordinary said:

I think this post would be cruel if she isn’t pregnant. People will recognise the dress and her stomach area is hidden.

Cruel?  How many people are scrutinizing every pixel of every pic of these people looking for clues?  

Honestly, the people who are so obsessed with them as to memorize their wardrobes and scour the web to verify  is a very, very small subset of the population.

Honestly, who cares?  I can't muster the energy to care this much about the lives of people I love....I don't get it.

[Ash]

I couldn't see buttons in the first pic. The one bump looked like Jinger had as outie... But yes, on the second pic, I do see they're buttons. Carry on.

[Smee]

I was about to be like “let me guess, it’s a citrus and lemon ‘modest’ dress that happens to also be suitable for a pregnancy because all their dresses assume fundies will get pregnant repeatedly and that’s who they’re appealing to”. Then I remembered how old those pics are.

[adidas]

On 5/17/2019 at 8:03 PM, Smee said:

When I was pregnant with my second, there was a woman in my due date group (on another forum) who went in for her 20 week anatomy scan and discovered that her son had a heart defect incompatible with life. She chose to terminate the pregnancy, but gave the baby a name and a burial. If mother’s day happened to fall a few months later, before she had a healthy live baby, would we object to her calling herself a mother?

I wouldn’t, even though she had an abortion and I would not want to limit her access to abortions. Because to me it’s not about the baby’s gestation, it’s that motherhood was something she had begun to identify with and change her life around. I don’t see it as a pro-choice/pro-life thing at all, personally.

Well said.

I have friends who lost their babies at various stages after a death certificate and burial and legally required (20 weeks gestation in Australia). I do see them as mothers to those children. They visit a grave, they mourn the anniversary of the child’s birth and death. 

If someone loses a pregnancy that they consider their child, I don’t really see it as my place to make their grief worse by arguing that they’re not a mother, even if I wouldn’t own that label myself (ie if it was a very early loss). I’m pro-choice and I guess the choice extends to another realm I hadn’t really considered before now.