Seewalds 37: Yes, Jessa is Pregnant

[AtlanticTug]

5 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I'm 99% sure that Seewald #3 will have a normal name, and a speshul snowflake Christian middle name. But in no way is Jessa going to accept another Spurgeon-level name. I highly doubt that Ben would have used a name like Spurgeon if he (Ben) had been older when the first son was born. 

Yeah, I can see an uncommon name but not a super weird one. ESPECIALLY if it's a girl. Ben exercised his right to do something once in his life and his choice determined that he'll never have that option again. 

[SilverBeach]

7 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

I'm no that's sure I could follow through with that. I listen to all sorts of musicians, I'm sure most of them have done bad things. 

There's bad, and then there is BAD. If you haven't heard about it in the media, it is likely lower case bad. No one is saying that our entertainers should be absolutely perfect, but they shouldn't be raping children, not in my book anyway. There's room for common sense here.

[BernRul]

On 1/11/2019 at 11:54 AM, Carm_88 said:

we now live to be in our 80s, that wasn't true for the vast majority of human history. Humans only lived to be 40-50 for many years. So mid life was 20-25. It does make a difference to the way that people lived their lives.

I don't disagree with your main point, but this is a common misconception. Human life spans have typically been 60-70 years throughout human history. Life expectancy was much lower because of child mortality rates. Something like 1 in 4 children died before age 10, so that lowers the life expectancy average. Once you survived childhood, however, you could reasonably expect to live to be 70, making middle age about 35-40. 

I only recently found out the Bowie story, which was a huge disappointment. But he was far from the only one. Male rock/pop stars typically had sex/raped (because they were too young to give true consent) teen groupies. It was considered normal by many in the 1960s-80s. Hell, R. Kelly illegally married 15-year-old Aaliyah in the 1990s and that didn't ruin his career. It's an interesting debate about how harshly you can judge someone in the past by today's standards. 

An example of that is slavery. Amerians glorify Washington and Jefferson, but they were slave owners. Even abolitionists like Alexander Hamilton tolerated slaveowners--his beloved sister-in-law Angelica owned slaves, and he may have even helped her acquire some. So do we dismiss everything they did because of that? Or do we condemn slaveowners while also acknowledging their contributions to America?

Here's one issue I have with that: they still had  a choice.  While Washington was too money-conscious to actually free his slaves during his life and Jefferson raped a slave girl, there were still people like John Laurens. Laurens was born into a large Southern slaveholding family, yet he actively went against the norms of the time by promoting the idea that blacks and whites were equal, and made it his mission to form a black battalion in the Revolution. So just because it was rare and hard to go against the grain, doesn't mean that no one did. Some people still had the courage to stand up for what is right.

On one hand, I don't want to make excuses, because it makes it seem like no one has a choice, that we just do what society tells us, and that's not true. Just because society tells us it's okay doesn't mean we don't have free will and morals. Yet on the other hand, it's easy for us to judge when we ourselves no longer face those societal pressures. The sad fact of the world is that most people aren't brave enough to go against society. Truthfully, no one knows what they would do if they were in their shoes. 

Basically, what I'm saying is I have no idea what the right answer is. I think both opinions are somewhat valid. 

[Carm_88]

11 minutes ago, BernRul said:

I don't disagree with your main point, but this is a common misconception. Human life spans have typically been 60-70 years throughout human history. Life expectancy was much lower because of child mortality rates. Something like 1 in 4 children died before age 10, so that lowers the life expectancy average. Once you survived childhood, however, you could reasonably expect to live to be 70, making middle age about 35-40. 

That's actually not true especially for women. Without birth control most women were having babies without proper sterilization or medical care ever 2 years. Childbirth is still quite risky and in those days, it was even worse. Childbed fever, which is an infection, killed many women and children. There were no c-sections, no vaccinations, no cure for anything. You could live to be in your 70s or 80s, but it wasn't just get past the age of 7 and survive. Accidents and illnesses take those young and healthy, not just the old and weak. Child morality rates are only part of the picture of life in those days. 

[SilverBeach]

28 minutes ago, BernRul said:

R. Kelly illegally married 15-year-old Aaliyah in the 1990s and that didn't ruin his career.

There's a six part series on Lifetime about this asshole. It didn't ruin his career because people like me who despised him even then didn't buy his stuff anyway. And he had enablers. And celebrities get passes for all kinds of shit. It's not a matter of standards changing since the 1990s. They lied about her being 18. Her parents made them get an annulment.

I won't even comment on the moral failings of the founding fathers.  Hypocritical to the core.

[AliceInFundyland]

I’m not at all sure what the right answers are where consent/nonconsent legal/nonlegal and rock music applies. 

I suspect we might be removing a large number of artists from the last fifty years from our dials if we took out all artists who once had sex with teen groupies.

R. Kelly, as SilverBeach just mentioned, has quite a documented pattern of awful, shitty abusive, predatory behavior. He is a sick fuck. That documentary is disturbing. My mind was blown by how many parents let him mentor their daughters AFTER the scandal. Bless those women for speaking out.

What are the lines? That is clearly one.

Do we crucify say, a young Mick Jagger and Keith Richards at 21 for maybe having sex with 16 year olds (just speculating here on a probable scenario)?

We would today. It’s all based on what we learn isn’t it? If victims speak out, we listen (or evidence is presented, like Kelly’s tape) If a series of women come forth, or one comes forth and says Mick was a dick and he assaulted me. We are obligated to listen. 

I think we can only go forward with this movement. Encourage a culture where people aren’t victimized and former victims continue to speak out so the artists are no longer supported. 

ETA: Also, let us hope that the overwhelming majority of them have STOPPED having sex with minors. This is a big issue with Kelly. Most of these aging rock legends have dried up and chilled the eff out. It was all part of the culture. For him it is clearly a sickness.

[BernRul]

42 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

That's actually not true especially for women. Without birth control most women were having babies without proper sterilization or medical care ever 2 years. Childbirth is still quite risky and in those days, it was even worse. Childbed fever, which is an infection, killed many women and children. There were no c-sections, no vaccinations, no cure for anything. You could live to be in your 70s or 80s, but it wasn't just get past the age of 7 and survive. Accidents and illnesses take those young and healthy, not just the old and weak. Child morality rates are only part of the picture of life in those days. 

That's a fair point that there were more things that could kill you. I suppose what I meant was that 20-25 still wasn't middle aged. Human lifespans were still the same, it's just like you said, things were more likely to kill you. 

 

23 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

There's a six part series on Lifetime about this asshole. It didn't ruin his career because people like me who despised him even then didn't buy his stuff anyway. And he had enablers. And celebrities get passes for all kinds of shit. It's not a matter of standards changing since the 1990s. They lied about her being 18. Her parents made them get an annulment.

I'm watching that now, though I'm only on episode 2. I meant standards for what male celebrities were allowed to do, and until the #MeToo movement, taking advantage of young girls was like an open secret. That's why I think it's ridiculous to talk about #MeToo going to far as of right now; it's only been going for a couple of years, while this stuff has been going on for decades. 

[SilverBeach]

 

4 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

I suspect we might be removing a large number of artists from the last fifty years from our dials if we took out all artists who once had sex with teen groupies.

During he Christmas season, there was a discussion in a thread, I don't remember which one, about a radio station that had pulled "Baby It's Cold Outside", an old song that is really not Christmas related but is only played during the Christmas season. The lyrics can be interpreted several ways. Some on here found it innocuous, some problematic. In any case, listeners voted to have it taken off as some were triggered by it, and the station complied.

If any of those rock star groupies were subject to abuses such as those perpetrated by R. Kelly, then hearing songs by those artists may be triggering to them. If they mounted a movement to have certain artists banned, I would respect that.  The music is still available to purchase for those who want it., although I think R. Kelly should be totally cancelled. 

It was and is wrong for adults to have sex with groupies without verifying their ages. In most cases, there will be no real repercussions. Sometimes, taking a hit to reputation is all that will happen when unsavory information comes out. 

Interestingly, Cosby Show reruns are still being shown on cable. I can see not wanting to deprive the other actors of residuals, but damn. Cosby is a sick fuck too. 

[Carm_88]

2 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Interestingly, Cosby Show reruns are still being shown on cable. I can see not wanting to deprive the other actors of residuals, but damn. Cosby is a sick fuck too. 

There are stations that show repeats of 7th Heaven too, which really really bothers me. Stephen Collins face makes me ill now. I used to love that show, but now it makes me want to puke. 

[AliceInFundyland]

@SilverBeach You’re not wrong. My point was just not having an all around answer . I was appalled about Cosby. I loved the show. I no longer watch. If it comes to light that Paul McCartney was a serial Quaalude slipper (to use the most out there example I can think of) than by god I will support a radio station removing his music. Triggers are legitimate. I respect it. I thought the end of the R Kelly documentary was interesting where the radio station guy pretty much admitted they had ignored the whole news aspect to just focus on his music.

7th Heaven also gross

Again, we can only work off what we know. Hopefully, things like the R.Kelly story help with that.

[Imaginary_Wonderland]

Yeah, I find it quite hard to disassociate the art or product once I know something really shitty about an actor/artist. I was watching Manchester by the Sea  on tv this evening, for the first time, I just couldn't stop thinking about Brie Larsons reaction to having to announce/react to Casey Affleck's win at the Golden Globes/Oscars. 

I knew about the Aaliyah thing with R.Kelly and while I had heard other non-specific skeevy stuff related to him in the past, I didn't know specifics or much else beside Aaliyah. I would watch doc series but it is not shown here, but I have been reading up alot on it recently and learning more. 

I don't think any of these guys should get a free pass just because they make good music or films. It feels wrong to reward them or celebrate them like what they did/behave is ok and acceptable. The blind eye turned to Woody Allen has always baffled me. I do agree with the previous posters saying you can only work on what we know now. I had long avoided Woody Allen films just due to the total creeper vibes and marrying his step daughter. That was before I know about the Dylan stuff. And I would decline to see a film in cinema because it was one of his. ( And often ppl would question me on this too). But then about two years ago, I checked out his list of his films on wiki, and realised I had sometimes seen some without realising it was one of his. I even reacted in horror because I had really liked one or two, and even had the dvd of one. So much for going around saying i hated all Woody Allen films!!!  But I don't always check the full cast and crew of everyone involved before heading to the cinema. I don't want to re-watch those 2 I liked again though now, and I no longer have the dvd.

 

[nst]

16 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

There are stations that show repeats of 7th Heaven too, which really really bothers me. Stephen Collins face makes me ill now. I used to love that show, but now it makes me want to puke. 

not to mention one of my faveourite actresses ever was married to the blow hole for like 27 years. 

i refuse to watch cosby and 7th heaven because of these nutjobs. 

[FunDieDumDum]

I haven’t followed the Seewalds very closely since their marriage, only sporadically checking in here and there. Just skimmed this latest thread today upon reading about #3 being on the way, and several pages back someone mentioned Ben working on a degree at Moody - can anyone fill me in on this? What is he studying, and when is he supposed to finish?

Ben and Jessa seem pretty stable and content with each other and with parenthood, there are no red flags apart from the obvious fundie cultish beliefs. Certainly if someone in the Duggar circle had to announce a pregnancy I’m happy for it to be them, rather than Jill (not stable), Anna (ugh, Josh), Kendra, Joy or Lauren (all still so, so young). Still too early for Jinger to have conceived again (and be ready to announce now). Abbie wouldn’t trouble me, although I think it’d be nice for them to enjoy being newlyweds for a while I do also think they’re both mature enough to become parents.

[Casserole]

16 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

There are stations that show repeats of 7th Heaven too, which really really bothers me. Stephen Collins face makes me ill now. I used to love that show, but now it makes me want to puke. 

I grew up with that "wholesome" show and watching it now makes me feel so sick. Naturally it's only ever on UP! Network with the Bateseses covering up child/sexual abuse, too. They belong together. But get my beloved Gilmore Girls off that filth of a channel, please. 

 

[Imaginary_Wonderland]

How was 7th Heaven regarded in America (or by fundies/ fundie light in particular) during it's original run before the Stephen Collins shit was known? 

My aunt married an American and moved over there and had one kid. I know very little about her life there only what she would share, and that was very little and non-specific. I did always wonder if there was a touch of fundie-lite going on. My cousin was home-schooled, ( which as a kid/teen I thought was v v strange, as it was unheard of in 90's Ireland), and had a whole list of restrictions. No sugar or fizzy drinks, no pop music (only classical), and many tv shows, or anything mainstream were a big no-no. I cannot remember most details of specific things that were banned. We usually would look wide-eyed, or roll our eyes at the stuff she would come out with. I do remember her being pure horrified and dismayed with my Mum about my brothers large collection of rap music. The other thing that always stuck in my head, was that 7th Heaven was included on the banned list. I had great craic over that one when my Mum told me. I kept telling her she must have misheard, of all the tv shows surely 7th Heaven would pass muster. But apparently that one wasn't wholesome and moralistic enough for her. I don't know that poor kid survived with both those parents. His father had a touch of Dillard-itis too with switching up career plans constantly, never sticking to a job for long, and being a forever  mature student.

But whenever I hear about  7th Heaven it always reminds me the crazy stories from them. I could never work out of the opinion on it was different in America, or it was just another one of my aunts 'notions'.

[nausicaa]

44 minutes ago, Imaginary_Wonderland said:

But whenever I hear about  7th Heaven it always reminds me the crazy stories from them. I could never work out of the opinion on it was different in America, or it was just another one of my aunts 'notions'.

I don't know how super conservative Fundies felt about it--but most of the conservative Christian kids at my school loved it and the oldest son was their heartthrob du jour in 1996/1997. When the show first came out it was pretty popular with most tweens/teens though, and then mainstream viewership fell off and it seemed only more religious people watched it. 

[Imaginary_Wonderland]

I was never a super fan of it, but watched it quite often on tv. We only had two tv channels back then, so not much choice and only a handful of American shows. I enjoyed some the stories, while rolling my eyes at the overly preachy stuff. So I watched it enough and knew enough about it, to be completely puzzled at how it could be corrupting influence. But she lived too far away to know how religious and conservative she was in America, or what kind of lifestyle she was living everyday. 

[seraaa]

19 hours ago, BernRul said:

That's a fair point that there were more things that could kill you. I suppose what I meant was that 20-25 still wasn't middle aged. Human lifespans were still the same, it's just like you said, things were more likely to kill you. 

 

20 hours ago, BernRul said:

I don't disagree with your main point, but this is a common misconception. Human life spans have typically been 60-70 years throughout human history. Life expectancy was much lower because of child mortality rates. Something like 1 in 4 children died before age 10, so that lowers the life expectancy average. Once you survived childhood, however, you could reasonably expect to live to be 70, making middle age about 35-40. 

 

 

From studying history, I second this. Life was much more hazardous, but if you got past childhood diseases/ work accidents/ childbirth etc, you could live a long life.

[singsingsing]

I'm not sure if it was 70 you could expect to live to (I think it was more like 60), but it is true that if you survived infancy and early childhood, you had a pretty good shot of making it to what was thought of as old age back then. But it's also true that women were at far higher risk of dying early due to childbirth complications. And people in general were obviously much more prone to dying of various diseases, accidents, violence and so on.

I guess it's actually true that most people died before they hit 40, but the problem is that people nowadays misunderstand what that means. Yes, most people died before 40, but most of them were babies and small children. 40 wasn't considered old age, living into your 70s wasn't considered a miracle, and there were people who got up into their 80s, 90s, even 100s.

[Casserole]

43 minutes ago, Imaginary_Wonderland said:

I was never a super fan of it, but watched it quite often on tv. We only had two tv channels back then, so not much choice and only a handful of American shows. I enjoyed some the stories, while rolling my eyes at the overly preachy stuff. So I watched it enough and knew enough about it, to be completely puzzled at how it could be corrupting influence. But she lived too far away to know how religious and conservative she was in America, or what kind of lifestyle she was living everyday. 

Matt interns for HILLARY CLINTON. 

Matt works in a "women's clinic" (unsure of whether or not abortion happens here)

Matt marries a Jewish girl after one date. 

Wilson, Mary's first boyfriend, had pre-marital sex with a 16 year old girl (who died in childbirth) and had a kid. 

Mary gets arrested for vandalism. 

Mary becomes friends with that drug addicted couple.

Mary gets drunk while babysitting and drives under the influence.

I think Mary also got some major credit card debt, but that's hazy.

Mary also gets married, pregnant, divorced, and signs away her parental rights.

Lucy is always kissing different boys

Lucy dated the drug dealer

Lucy states she doesn't want anymore children (after a miscarriage)

Simon discusses having sex with his girlfriend (I think in high school)

Simon hits and kills a pedestrian.

Simon goes to college and has premarital sex.

Questionable paternity over Simon maybe fathering a kid.

My girl Ruthie protests for equal rights for her Muslim friend. 

Ruth gets T-bone's named tattooed on her. 

Happy the dog was pretty unproblematic, except that he's really Whitey and Simon essentially kidnapped him. 

 

For a Christian show, it's actually a hot mess. 

[Imaginary_Wonderland]

Haha! Well, when you put it all together like that, I guess it would be pretty problematic for my aunt! Love that rundown. 

[Carm_88]

The kids went to a real school too. They weren't home schooled. 

[nastyhobbitses]

3 hours ago, Imaginary_Wonderland said:

How was 7th Heaven regarded in America (or by fundies/ fundie light in particular) during it's original run before the Stephen Collins shit was known? 

My aunt married an American and moved over there and had one kid. I know very little about her life there only what she would share, and that was very little and non-specific. I did always wonder if there was a touch of fundie-lite going on. My cousin was home-schooled, ( which as a kid/teen I thought was v v strange, as it was unheard of in 90's Ireland), and had a whole list of restrictions. No sugar or fizzy drinks, no pop music (only classical), and many tv shows, or anything mainstream were a big no-no. I cannot remember most details of specific things that were banned. We usually would look wide-eyed, or roll our eyes at the stuff she would come out with. I do remember her being pure horrified and dismayed with my Mum about my brothers large collection of rap music. The other thing that always stuck in my head, was that 7th Heaven was included on the banned list. I had great craic over that one when my Mum told me. I kept telling her she must have misheard, of all the tv shows surely 7th Heaven would pass muster. But apparently that one wasn't wholesome and moralistic enough for her. I don't know that poor kid survived with both those parents. His father had a touch of Dillard-itis too with switching up career plans constantly, never sticking to a job for long, and being a forever  mature student.

But whenever I hear about  7th Heaven it always reminds me the crazy stories from them. I could never work out of the opinion on it was different in America, or it was just another one of my aunts 'notions'.

Well, there was a whole big brouhaha about Jessica Biel (who played the oldest "rebellious" daughter) doing some rather risque magazine spreads while still on the show and (most importantly) 17 years old -- the photos themselves are kinda gross (topless/hand-bra), and Jessica herself has said that in retrospect the photoshoot was very exploitative. The show kept on trucking with a child rapist in the lead role, but Jessica almost got fired for essentially being sexually exploited by a men's magazine that preyed on her insecurity and desire to be seen as grown up...but that's showbiz, baby. 

[Ever]

On 1/9/2019 at 2:51 PM, luv2laugh said:

Why do you say that?

To me, Her eyes looked empty and she seemed really vacant. I thought she had post partem or maybe was just exhausted. Once Austin Jr was about six months old, she started looking more herself again. 

[MargaretElliott]

Man, the "everyone died when they were 35" is one of my pet peeves about history. There are three kinds of lies in this world: lies, damned lies, and statistics. This is the third option. I'm glad people are talking about how untrue it is. If you lived past childhood (or your childbearing years, if you were female), people lived lives only a little shorter than today.

Related: Average age of first marriage in history. A lot of fundies get married young and lots of people liken it to average marriage ages throughout the Victorian era in Europe and America. They idealize it, really. You know the type, "This is how it's always been, it's normal, this is how Christians have married for years" kind of thing. However, in the 19th century, most women got married between 22 and 25, and most men married between 26 and 30. This is pretty normal, if a little on the younger side, even today. Several people I know personally got married at that age or younger. The only reason we think everyone got married at 16 in the past is because that's how young famous people got married - specifically royalty and nobility. Because let's face it, if you were trying to secure an alliance with France, you'd want to make that move as soon as possible. But for the average person, it was not recommended to get married before 21. So that means that the Duggar women, on average, get married younger than on average that proper Victorian women (despite how much conservative Christians seem to idealize that period). So that's your fun fact of the day.