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Coconut Flan

John David and Abbie 7: Happiness Continues

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ihaveanexamintwodays

It's such an interesting discussion. One aspect that always interests me is that surnames *do* often have cultural & linguistic origins - mine most definitely reveals my nationality (or at least ethnicity) very easily. As interracial marriages have become increasingly common, and women taking their husband's last name remains common, seeing women with "other"-culture last names is not at all surprising, compared to men (a caucasian woman with the last name Chang vs an asian man with the last name Garcia, etc). And how in various cultures, a mixed-race child may be treated differently based on their name. 

I personally will be taking my significant other's name when I get married, not out of disrespect for my culturally-distinct maiden name, but because of personal experiences with my father's family. They're not bad people, I would just rather not use theirs as my legal and professional name forever. 

Edited by ihaveanexamintwodays

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BlessaYourHeart
23 hours ago, Irishy said:

 

I cannot find rates for Ireland (possibly because data doesn’t exist since you don’t change your name officially, just use new name if you choose to).

I have loads of family and friends that changed their name officially and legally in both the Republic and Northern Ireland so I don’t think that’s accurate,  in fact everyone I know has done it legally 

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Irishy
30 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

Why do you only apply this to baby girls though? What about the baby boys? Should they be called by their fathers name just because of their sex? Boys for the father and girls for the mother? Sorry but that sounds way more sexist to me than taking your husbands name (even if you just take it because it’s done).

 And I really don’t get how some make a huge deal out of it. In my opinion there are way more important battlefields for feminism than what you choose as your surname. (And I don’t have to worry about abortion rights either. But there are still definitely more pressing problems.) Especially because this comes down to being true to yourself and sticking up for yourself. It’s not as if you are withheld the option to keep your name. The decision is already yours (and your partners if he/she is taking your name). You might have to deal with criticism but the decision is yours to make.

I mention baby girls specifically because we are talking about women changing their names upon marriage. Not making any distinction between baby boys or girls. 

6 minutes ago, BlessaYourHeart said:

I have loads of family and friends that changed their name officially and legally in both the Republic and Northern Ireland so I don’t think that’s accurate,  in fact everyone I know has done it legally 

I live in Ireland. When I got married, I didn’t have to do anything to change my name. When it was time for a new passport or bank account, I used the new name and showed marriage cert as proof. But other than that there is no official name changing going on in Ireland. Legally you can be known by either name. But if you want to change back, you need to show proof of divorce.

Edited by Irishy

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Waffle Time
BlessaYourHeart
11 minutes ago, Irishy said:

I mention baby girls specifically because we are talking about women changing their names upon marriage. Not making any distinction between baby boys or girls. 

I live in Ireland. When I got married, I didn’t have to do anything to change my name. When it was time for a new passport or bank account, I used the new name and showed marriage cert as proof. But other than that there is no official name changing going on in Ireland. Legally you can be known by either name. But if you want to change back, you need to show proof of divorce.

I live in Ireland, well on the border so half Ireland half Northern Ireland. When my dad got married in Donegal, his wife legally changed her name on everything (by going to the courthouse or something). Her legal surname is now my dads surname, same with everyone’s else I know. 

Edited by BlessaYourHeart

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zcccrv
2 hours ago, TheRadleyPorch said:

If you’re going to say that your surname of origin is just “your dad’s name,” you may as well say no that no woman living in a society with a patriarchal naming system has ever really had a name. Except that would be absurd. My mother’s maiden name is from her father. My grandmother’s maiden name is from her father. Etc. etc. But those names belonged to them, too, and are based on their histories and origins rather than their marriages. Yes, we have a patriarchal naming system and your two choices are a.) continue the patriarchal naming system or b.) interrupt the patriarchal naming system. Those are not equally feminist choices just because a woman chooses them. And yeah, not everything in your life has to be feminist. Proposals, for example: not feminist. Do I still kinda want to be proposed to? Yes. I have plenty of friends who are strong feminists in other areas of their life and took their husband’s names and I would never criticize them for it or even bring it up to them unless they claimed it was “just as feminist” as keeping their names. It’s just not. Not everything you do has to be about destroying the patriarchy, but it’s still worth examining and being honest about the ways we all uphold it. 

I'm European and in a common law marriage so I have my birth surname. But, if we end up having a child together I would very much like to legally change my surname to my partner's. Does the tradition come from patriarchy? Of course it does, just like pretty much everything else. Does it make a difference to me? No. I personally see the traditional aspect of it as much more powerful than the patriarchal aspect. I get the priviledge to carry a child and he gets the priviledge to call it by his lastname. Mine would be the same just to show that we are a family unit.

Women have vastly different opinions about what is feminism. For quite a few, showing off their body is what they perceive as being feminist. I personally disagree but it's not my call to decide what is feminist and what is not. Same with the surnames. Not everything has to be fought against. Some things can be modified and modernized even if they started out as patriarchal.

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Irishy
10 minutes ago, BlessaYourHeart said:

I live in Ireland, well on the border so half Ireland half Northern Ireland. When my dad got married in Donegal, his wife legally changed her name on everything (by going to the courthouse or something). Her legal surname is now my dads surname, same with everyone’s else I know. 

No, there’s no courthouse. It’s exactly as I described.

https://www.hitched.ie/wedding-planning/organising-and-planning/changing-your-name_438.htm

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SapphireSlytherin

We just returned from Iceland where surnames are apparently unimportant, and where family names are nonexistent. Nobody we met used a surname. Those that did followed the “son” or “dottir” convention, such that:

 

Robert and Janet had two children:  Lance and Lily. They are known as Lance Robertsson and Lily Robertsdottir. (These are not real names of anyone we met.)

 

And a woman can’t take her husband’s name. 

Edited by SapphireSlytherin

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SorenaJ
7 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

We just returned from Iceland where surnames are apparently unimportant, and where family names are nonexistent. Nobody we met used a surname. Those that did followed the “son” or “dottir” convention, such that:

Robert and Janet had two children:  Lance and Lily. They are known as Lance Robertsson and Lily Robertsdottir. (These are not real names of anyone we met.)

 And a woman can’t take her husband’s name. 

Also in Iceland, names in the phone book (if phone books are even still a thing) is by first name, not by last. 

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Depressed
victoriasponge

I always assumed I would just take my husband’s name.

Then I found out that both of MrSponge’s aunts (on different sides of the family) have the same first name as me (for the third time, thanks mum for the common name). I’ve met myfirstname hislastname and she is a lovely lady but she’s also nearly 60. That’s who that name belongs to. 

Plus we’re both only children in families we have nothing much to do with so our names would die with us. We’ve decided we will probably double barrel. It’ll be long, my name is three syllables, 11 letters already. But he has a family surname used as a middle name already, so it wouldn’t be much longer than that for theoretical kids if we drop that middle name he has no connection to. 

Mum opened up when Gran died and said she was annoyed she hadn’t kept her maiden name, even though she’s lived longer with her married name than without now. That made me sad. 

I am worried people would judge us though. Everyone I know who has got married just takes his name, and there is something nice in that easy family name thing. 

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Mama Mia

I always just figured that children are usually given the father’s name because you always know who the mother is, but not the father. It ties the kid to the Dad. They are already tied to the mom.

 

In my friends and family most of the women have taken their husbands last name if they marry. Or hyphenated. The ones who hyphenate mostly hyphenate their kids names too.  If they have significant work history they might keep their original name for work. If they divorce they usually, but not always, keep it if they had kids with the guy, or if they were married a long time and all their work is in that name.  If they had kids with him but didn’t get married the kids have usually had the Dad’s last name. If the Dad has the Spanish 2 last name thing, they take the one he uses in every day life. If the Dad is not involved when the kid is born they usually give the kid their last name, or their mom’s or a grandparents. I also know a lot of people, both men and women, who end up with switching, informally, if not legally, between various step-parent / parent / absent parent last names. 

It seems like a strange issue to get heated up about, when naming traditions are different all over the world. 

 

 

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Waffle Time
BlessaYourHeart
14 hours ago, Irishy said:

No, there’s no courthouse. It’s exactly as I described.

https://www.hitched.ie/wedding-planning/organising-and-planning/changing-your-name_438.htm

You can change it my deed poll, which is what I assume she done. 

However, citizens advice does say that a marriage certificate acts as the documentation. Therefore, changing your name on the marrriage certificate is legally changing it in Ireland, it’s not as simple as just asking people to use the new name but your maiden name being used legally, as your first post suggested 

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Tired
finnlassie

DAAAAAAAAMN I've had a bit of a hiatus! So much has happened! I saw pics of Abbie's dress and it was absolutely lovely! They both looked so genuinely happy! Oh hell yeah I'm having a Duggar high! :cracking-up:

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Irishy
1 hour ago, BlessaYourHeart said:

You can change it my deed poll, which is what I assume she done. 

However, citizens advice does say that a marriage certificate acts as the documentation. Therefore, changing your name on the marrriage certificate is legally changing it in Ireland, it’s not as simple as just asking people to use the new name but your maiden name being used legally, as your first post suggested 

But you don’t actually change your name on the marriage certificate. There’s no option for that. It just says Mary Kelly married John Doe on X date.

Deed poll is only necessary when one or both parties are changing name to something other than husband’s name or keeping maiden name. Such as hyphenating or choosing entirely new name. 

The only ‘official’ way to change your name is to change your passport, bank, pps card etc when you get new ones. 

It doesn’t really matter. I only mentioned it with regard to it being difficult to find data. Nothing on the CSO for example 

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Foudeb

I don't really understand the argument of "it was my father's name so its patriarchal" either. Sure the naming tradition is patriarchal. But it's still been *my* name for several decades. Every last school paper has it. Ditto for medical records, professional certifications, social media handles etc. At this point it really isn't my father's name and more - he may have had it longer, but I feel I've used it enough for it to be mine just as much as it is his. And my parents chose a first name that would flow nicely with that last name - you may or may not agree with them but there was some thought put into the first + last name identifier combination. 

Ymmv obviously. 

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singsingsing
8 minutes ago, Foudeb said:

I don't really understand the argument of "it was my father's name so its patriarchal" either.

What's there to not understand? It's like a man saying he doesn't understand how his mitochondrial DNA is maternal, because even though it was passed to him by his mother he's had it his whole life. Doesn't matter, it still has a matrilineal origin. 

What I don't like is women being judged for choosing to take their husbands' surnames when women who choose to keep their surnames, which are in most cases patrilineal in origin (maybe that's a better term than patriarchal) are applauded as being feminists. That's nonsense. To clarify, I think both choices are totally valid, neither is any more or less feminist than the other, and women should be trusted to make their own decisions on this matter, given the benefit of the doubt, and not shamed either way.

Edited by singsingsing
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Mama Mia
On 12/14/2018 at 2:49 PM, lumpentheologie said:

My mother intended to keep her own name (in the 70s), but ended up taking my father's when it was important enough to him that he offered to take her maiden name as his middle name.  So now both my parents, my brother, and I all have my mother's maiden name as a middle name. 

Totally anecdotally, I know way more women in my parents' generation who kept their names than in my own (I'm about as old as you can be and still be a millennial). I can count on one hand the women I know my age or younger who kept their names, and I've lived in pretty liberal areas my whole life. 

When I was younger I took it for granted that as feminism progressed, women would just continue to keep their names at higher and higher rates, and to me it's a bit disappointing and worrying that the opposite seems to be the case. 

That said, I completely agree that fighting against patriarchy is hard and you have to pick your battles, but I wonder why this battle in particular seems to have been largely abandoned.  

I’m in my 50’s and I agree that it seemed much more common for women my age, and a little older, to keep their last names, or hyphenate, than it seems to be with my kids generation.  From personal experience, having the same last name as your kids is just easier. That may be why you see more women making that choice. Just my opinion. 

FWIW, with my first husband ( married at 18) I hyphenated my last name - it was a huge PITA. Too long for many forms, and as my maiden name was frequently misspelled anyway...uggghh. Took back my maiden name. Had another kid with a different dad, who I eventually married, took his name. So for a long time we had three different last names in the house. I never got any flack about any of those choices, but it was an extra step to explain names /relationships sometimes. And the different last names had different, very obvious, ethnic backgrounds - which led to some rather awful awareness in how much low-key pervasive racism there is in every day interactions -even in the brightest blue areas ( another topic though ) .

 

 

Edited by Mama Mia

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JingerSnaps
15 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

We just returned from Iceland where surnames are apparently unimportant, and where family names are nonexistent. Nobody we met used a surname. Those that did followed the “son” or “dottir” convention, such that:

Robert and Janet had two children:  Lance and Lily. They are known as Lance Robertsson and Lily Robertsdottir. (These are not real names of anyone we met.) 

I think their population size of less than 350,000 with half of them living in the middle of nowhere, make this type of naming convention more feasible. 

Iceland is easily my favorite place on Earth. I dream of going back. 

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SamiKatz

My mother remarried when I was nine so I spent the majority of my school years with a different last name than her, which never caused any issues at all (and this was during the 70s). We also used to drive from Canada to the US all the time, it always used to make me laugh that my mother and step father had to have more documentation to prove our dog was properly vaccinated, than to prove we were her kids (also back in the 70s, I know things have changed since then).

I've heard of other people with my first name/last name combo, but they're all male - thank you very much Mom & Dad.

Edited by SamiKatz

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Tired
Coconut Flan

Thus we amble back to one of my favorite comments to people who try to have a say in things that they shouldn't, "You think this is your business, why?"

I am currently very tired of people wanting me to give an account of my medications for this last year's newest zebra disease.  The drugs are only given for this exact rare condition and even other doctors haven't heard of them.  Why do random people think they need to know their names and dosages?  I keep telling them the drug names would be of no help to them and matter not to their lives.  

I use that story only to say that it's all personal and no one else need try to have a say unless they've been invited in.

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Foudeb
2 hours ago, singsingsing said:

What's there to not understand? It's like a man saying he doesn't understand how his mitochondrial DNA is maternal, because even though it was passed to him by his mother he's had it his whole life. Doesn't matter, it still has a matrilineal origin. 

What I don't like is women being judged for choosing to take their husbands' surnames when women who choose to keep their surnames, which are in most cases patrilineal in origin (maybe that's a better term than patriarchal) are applauded as being feminists. That's nonsense. To clarify, I think both choices are totally valid, neither is any more or less feminist than the other, and women should be trusted to make their own decisions on this matter, given the benefit of the doubt, and not shamed either way.

The equivalent in your analogy would be a man swapping his own DNA, which is part of who he is, regardless of which parent it came from, to swap it for his wife's. At some cost to him (time, admin, aggro etc). When no such sacrifice is required from the wife. 

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louisa05
2 hours ago, Foudeb said:

I don't really understand the argument of "it was my father's name so its patriarchal" either. Sure the naming tradition is patriarchal. But it's still been *my* name for several decades. Every last school paper has it. Ditto for medical records, professional certifications, social media handles etc. At this point it really isn't my father's name and more - he may have had it longer, but I feel I've used it enough for it to be mine just as much as it is his. And my parents chose a first name that would flow nicely with that last name - you may or may not agree with them but there was some thought put into the first + last name identifier combination. 

Ymmv obviously. 

But not all parents did the bolded. Some of them just slapped on a first name they liked with no regard for how it works the last name. One of my cousins named his daughter a first name with the exact same first syllable as their last name and only figured out it sounds awful when they started making appointments and such and saying her first and last name together on the phone. Too late. 

I have never understood the attachment to last names. They are just labels to identify you. Hell, my maiden name isn't even the right name when you look at the family tree. My great great grandmother got pregnant by a random man while she was running a "boarding house" for railroad workers. She gave her son the last name of her late husband who had been dead for almost 15 months by the time great grandfather was born. By the patrilineal naming traditions, that was not his name. We don't know what the name should have been. 

I also have little attachment to that side of my family. My grandparents openly wished that I had not been born. Why would I want to be attached to that name? Mr. 05's name sounds better with my first name, too. (Not my parents's fault; frankly, nothing sounds good with my maiden name) I like it better. So I took it. I changed my identifying label. So what? That's all it is. 

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xlurker
40 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

just don’t be an asshole

That is what I strive to do in life--I may not agree with everyone's views, I may not understand their beliefs.  But if said person is kind to me and others I am also kind.  This world would be a sad and boring place if everyone agreed on everything, believed the same thing, had no personal opinions....If you don't agree with someone so much you have to be an asshole, in short, just don't.  Stay away and remember the words everyone's grandma has told them "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all",  

This is not to say heated debates and discussions cannot take place--they should!  This is thought provoking, and it may actually help folks find common ground ;)

In short, I find for myself I am a much happier person if I treat everybody with common courtesy and dignity and just try NOT to be an asshole.  

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SorenaJ

Something I think would be cool to do, would be to give the mother's maiden name, as the child's first name e.g. if the mother was Matthews and the father Jones, the child could be Matthew Jones. 

I actually thought of doing that, I have two surnames, the second one is a "sen" surname, which are very common in Denmark, basically a male name with "sen" added (meaning son), for example Petersen, Davidsen, Nielsen, Mortensen, so the child would be Peter, David, Niels or Morten. 

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VelociRapture
4 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

Something I think would be cool to do, would be to give the mother's maiden name, as the child's first name e.g. if the mother was Matthews and the father Jones, the child could be Matthew Jones. 

I actually thought of doing that, I have two surnames, the second one is a "sen" surname, which are very common in Denmark, basically a male name with "sen" added (meaning son), for example Petersen, Davidsen, Nielsen, Mortensen, so the child would be Peter, David, Niels or Morten. 

I actually considered this as an option myself, but we ultimately decided to use other family names for our daughter instead. Her first name is the middle name of two of my father's aunts and one of his Grandmas, as well as a form of the middle name my mom and I share (for example, think Marie and Maria.) Her middle name is the German spelling of the middle name my mom’s only sister had. And her last name is her dad’s last name (as well as mine.) So we wound up honoring both sides of my family with her first and middle names, as well as her dad’s family with her last name. 

If we should ever have a son we’d do something similar - his middle name would be the same name my FIL and BIL have as their first names and his first name would start wth the same two letters as the name my father and my sister’s husband share. So, for example:

If FIL and BIL were named James and my dad and BIL were named John, then our son would be named something like Joseph James. 

And if we end up having a second daughter at some point she would have a middle name that belonged to one of my Great-Great-Aunts, who was an adventurous and loving person. First name would be a name we just happen to like. 

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