Jinjer 46: Felicity and Her Hair Coverings

[singsingsing]

One more thing and then I'm stopping, I swear!

I think people are so harsh on Jeremy because so many are so starry eyed about him. People look at him and think, wow! He's handsome, he's articulate, he's cultured, he's educated and intelligent, he's stylish, he has a job, he's here to rescue Jinger and whisk her away to a life of fashion, birth control, and enlightenment! It was worse when he first came on the scene, but that impulse definitely still exists, and people here are trying to push back against that. So it's not so much that people are trying to show the world that Jeremy is uniquely horrible, but that he's far more horrible than the pretty pictures and hopeful daydreams/fan fiction would suggest.

[AliceInFundyland]

@louisa05 I feel like you’re shooting yourself in the foot a little bit here.

He isn’t special or unique in his abhorrent views. We all know that.

But he is the hateful idiot who attached himself to the reality show offspring that is the namesake of our site. 

We need to keep pointing that out. Many people never leave Duggarville. I think many of them just snark on them on the lowest (like poor hick type) level possible.

It’s what we do. I certainly didn’t know he was as hateful as he was until people watched his Youtube videos. 

Isn’t this better than discussing Felicity’s latest headwrap?

9 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

One more thing and then I'm stopping, I swear!

I think people are so harsh on Jeremy because so many are so starry eyed about him. People look at him and think, wow! He's handsome, he's articulate, he's cultured, he's educated and intelligent, he's stylish, he has a job, he's here to rescue Jinger and whisk her away to a life of fashion, birth control, and enlightenment! It was worse when he first came on the scene, but that impulse definitely still exists, and people here are trying to push back against that. So it's not so much that people are trying to show the world that Jeremy is uniquely horrible, but that he's far more horrible than the pretty pictures and hopeful daydreams/fan fiction would suggest.

And maybe also to keep everyone focused on the fact that he is potentially worse than Derick? We have been on him a bit more lately since D has been quieter....

Just typing out loud

[Palimpsest]

For the love of Rufus!  Is there a full moon or something?

It seems like every poster I had vaguely thought of as suspicious, rather unpleasant, or downright problematic just outright dropped trou in the last 3 days.

And their backsides are really ugly.

Peace on earth, goodwill to all, and may the trolls all out themselves in this holiday season so that we can get rid of them.

 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

Felicity doesn’t seem too happy!  But she sure is cute!  Those cheeks!  #madeforkisses

Spoiler

 

[Kailash]

45 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

For the love of Rufus!  Is there a full moon or something?

It seems like every poster I had vaguely thought of as suspicious, rather unpleasant, or downright problematic just outright dropped trou in the last 3 days.

And their backsides are really ugly.

Peace on earth, goodwill to all, and may the trolls all out themselves in this holiday season so that we can get rid of them.

 

There is totally a full moon here tonight. (Middle of the USA.) I lol’d at dropping trou but it isn’t actually funny. Just funny to “hear” that phrase.

[AstridM]

Full moon, yes! Yesterday on the Winter Solstice.

[just_ordinary]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

For the love of Rufus!  Is there a full moon or something?

It seems like every poster I had vaguely thought of as suspicious, rather unpleasant, or downright problematic just outright dropped trou in the last 3 days.

And their backsides are really ugly.

Peace on earth, goodwill to all, and may the trolls all out themselves in this holiday season so that we can get rid of them.

 

I see arguments all over the board right now (or more in all Duggar and Bates threads). The fact that we don’t have a courtship/engagement/wedding/pregnancy to snark on (CarVan is still funny but their douchiness gets tiresome and boring) makes people talk more about “harder” topics. Obviously this will make the conversation more heated. 

But I also think that some of those arguments arise because of language barriers (I find it very hard/impossible to get some points across as eloquently as in my native language), difference in societies (Sorry but you can often tell the USA-Europe difference), difference in valuing the importance of things (example: family name discussion). From what I read not many posters have really horrible believes that they show right now.

If @louisa05 thinks we judge Jeremy harder than others (hello Chad gushers- who is also very prominently promoted by his very public fundie wife- probably even more dangerous than JinJer), that maybe we should be more aware of the horrible believes around us in real life (and maybe boycott the services of some people if we find out if possible even if it is a bit inconvenient), that sadly Jeremy is nothing out of the norm (what a terrifying idea) than I feel she can voice that opinion. Thinking that talking about it in an online forum is nice but doesn’t have real or enough impact is also a valid view. That is what how I understood her post. 

I feel that some posters are jumping on people screaming ‘wolf’ just because they voice a different opinion or that speculations are going way out of hand (I am avoiding Josie and Kelton for that reason). Sometimes I really wish someone would announce a pregnancy just so we have something a bit more light hearted and real to talk about. But then I feel sorry because no baby should be born into this lifestyle so that I find this board more pleasant and nice (or in general. I am deeply sorry of every poor little soul).

[lumpentheologie]

I think @louisa05 was getting at how some posters seem to express a bit of surprise when they're reminded of Jeremy's views, or maybe not surprise exactly, but something like saying they forget how bad it is and are grateful to be reminded. And there might be a fine line between calling someone out for these kind of beliefs and giving the impression that these beliefs are somehow exceptional or not the norm. 

But for a lot of posters, especially non-American ones, Jeremy's views are really far from the norm in their areas. For people who've never lived around a lot of evangelicals, it can be hard to recognize how 'normal' this is for many people in the US. And @louisa05's reminder that your mailman, hairdresser, etc likely also believe these things is only true for Americans. 

So perhaps @louisa05 isn't really recognizing that FJ is doing a needed thing here in reminding people of how terrible Jeremy's views are, but I think she has a point that it would also be helpful to talk about how widespread these views really are in some places. And how that makes them more harmful, not less. I'm just not really sure how to work that into a thread that's about JinJer without seeming to undermine the validity of discussing these particular dangerous people. 

[Palimpsest]

4 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

 I think she has a point that it would also be helpful to talk about how widespread these views really are in some places. And how that makes them more harmful, not less. I'm just not really sure how to work that into a thread that's about JinJer without seeming to undermine the validity of discussing these particular dangerous people. 

There is nothing to stop you from starting a brand new thread to discuss just that.  It would be interesting. 

One of the fascinating, and depressing, aspects of all of this to me is watching how extreme Fundamentalist beliefs have expanded into what we would previously considered almost main-stream evangelical churches over time.  And increasingly acceptable blatant fundamentalist, evangelical, and "conservative Christian" homophobia and hate-speech towards trans people seem to be to many people.  Apparently even on Free Jinger.

[formergothardite]

10 hours ago, louisa05 said:

But the attitude here is that he's a reality show anomaly and that taking him down would be a win. It's not. He's one of millions. 

One of millions who is on television pushing the idea that hate is normal and hate is love. So we discuss him. What exactly are you suggesting people do? We should react in horror to these beliefs no matter how common they are. We should push the narrative that these beliefs are just terrible. Just because it is a common belief doesn't mean it isn't a fundie belief. Sadly a lot of people believe fundamentally awful things. 

[mpheels]

Just a quick reminder that evangelism and fundamentalist Christianity are not synonymous. There is a lot of overlap in the Venn diagram, but still a lot of evangelicals that are not fundamentalists. That Pew religion in America survey didn’t ask people to identify as evangelical or not. It asked them which denomination they identified with, then assigned evangelism based on denomination. If you look at responses to the specific belief questions at http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/, only half of evangelical Protestants believe there are absolute standards for what is right/wrong, and 55% believe the Bible is the literal word of god. To me, those are two of the essential hallmarks of Protestant fundamentalism, and the Pew survey suggests that maybe half of evangelicals in the US are fundamentalists.

I have a lot of friends and family that would end up in the evangelical bucket of the Pew survey based on the denomination with which they identify, but they aren’t in any way fundie or fundie light. This includes my grandfather who was deacon in his Freewill Baptist church for his entire adult life, but was also a Socialist, anti-segregationist, and vocal feminist.

[SilverBeach]

8 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

Thinking that talking about it in an online forum is nice but doesn’t have real or enough impact is also a valid view.

What does that poster do in real life that has "enough impact"? I don't think that is valid at all. Nobody here should judge anyone else here for their level of perceived activism, as FJ is not an activist organization. I think it's nervy to judge folks for talking about the reprehensible husband of a Duggar on a Duggar thread. Kudos to @VelociRapturefor her amazing transcription of Jeremy's awful sermon, lesson, or whatever it is, I appreciate her confirming the douchbaggery of this terrible person.

 

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

One of the fascinating, and depressing, aspects of all of this to me is watching how extreme Fundamentalist beliefs have expanded into what we would previously considered almost main-stream evangelical churches over time.

It's definitely gotten worse after the Russians elected 45, with "evangelical" support. Not enough vomit emojis to express my disgust.

[nickelodeon]

21 hours ago, louisa05 said:

 

Jeremies fix your cars and do your hair and deliver your mail and teach your kids in public school

Yes, and those people suck too. I get what you’re saying here (I do live in an area where this is true.) But my disgust towards Jeremy is totally compatible with my daily reckoning with other less famous bigots.

[singsingsing]

While I think it's important to remember that there are areas of America where Jeremy's beliefs are more or less the norm, it's equally important to understand that there are areas of America and the world where they absolutely are not. Jeremy's beliefs are very far from common or normal where I live, and I want to keep it that way. And I view the fact that there are so many like him in certain places as an enormous threat to the entire world. Religious extremism is always a threat. The people like Jeremy who are fixing your car and teaching your kids at school are also voting for Trump (among other horrible things). That doesn't just affect their own locale, it affects the entire world. So yeah, when I'm on a forum devoted to the Duggars, and a Duggar in-law is pushing his toxic and dangerous beliefs, I'm going to push back. Especially when so many people think he's just the bee's knees because he's handsome and has books and lets Jinger wear pants.

[SilverBeach]

We may not know what the other Jeremys' believe because they keep their traps shut when fixing cars, etc. Not talking about Jeremy will have no impact on any of these folks.  I just don't see the point criticizing FJ for talking about a higher profile asshole. We know there are many assholes, (religious and not) especially in the USA, especially now since the highest office in the land is occupied by one.

[formergothardite]

8 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

Thinking that talking about it in an online forum is nice but doesn’t have real or enough impact is also a valid view. 

But we really don't know how much of an impact talking can have. We have had a couple fundies who came here and argued with us(one who even said he would personally stone our gay members) come back years later and admit that the things they read here and the points made helped them start questioning their beliefs and see how awful the things they said really were. 

Mega-church leader Gwen Shamblin has changed her entire daily devotional to remove her more dangerous teachings based on us discussing them. Does she still believe those terrible things? Yes, but she now has to hide her dangerous beliefs a bit more instead of acting like they are normal. 

I know I have changed a lot of my beliefs since I started reading here. Discussing how harmful commonly held beliefs are can make an impact. Will we make a huge impact on the world by snarking? Most likely not, but we have and can make small changes in the world by having these discussions. 

So I don't actually get @louisa05 point. What does she want us to do differently? Not react in horror at beliefs that are horrible? 

[SilverBeach]

There is a thread called "What's Next" in the Politics forum. It was started after the nightmare of November 2016, and members post links and resources for people to use who want to take further action against the orange menace and his flying monkeys.  There is nothing stopping anyone from starting a thread about resources for fighting against fundamentalism. That would be more useful than self-righteously criticizing other FJ members for seemingly being unaware of the widespread nature of ugly beliefs.

1 minute ago, formergothardite said:

So I don't actually get @louisa05 point.

Me either.

[Palimpsest]

10 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

That doesn't just affect their own locale, it affects the entire world. So yeah, when I'm on a forum devoted to the Duggars, and a Duggar in-law is pushing his toxic and dangerous beliefs, I'm going to push back. Especially when so many people think he's just the bee's knees because he's handsome and has books and lets Jinger wear pants.

Quite.  And quite frankly, a poster suddenly objecting to others discussing extreme religious beliefs that they find repugnant anywhere on FJ is astonishing.  Not just on the Duggar sub forum.

I also want to make it clear that in policy discussions (probably still in CD) the fearless leader of Free Jinger (that would be @Curious  in case people don't know) has made a point of never defining the term "Fundie" closely or narrowly. 

It is a term that we use loosely here and it is a pejorative.  It means any extreme belief that we find dangerous.  Discussion has never been limited to the more repugnant beliefs of some (not all) of the people who believe in the Five Fundamentals of Christianity.

And no.  Free Jinger is not an activist board.  This is from the Guidelines that people forget to read.  This is what we do here:

Quote

What you call gossip, we call keeping our eyes on a dangerous religious movement. We believe that criticism, snark and laughter is the best way to call attention to some serious problems such as child abuse, rape, oppression of women, loss of rights, and the groups who perpetrate these things. We are shining a light, because it burns away the darkness.

Keep your flame lit, and you will never feel darkness. ~J. Parker

 

[singsingsing]

3 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

But we really don't know how much of an impact talking can have. We have had a couple fundies who came here and argued with us(one who even said he would personally stone our gay members) come back years later and admit that the things they read here and the points made helped them start questioning their beliefs and see how awful the things they said really were. 

I was a fundie sympathizer and a Duggar fan when I found FJ. I know that might be hard to believe now, but it's true. I was very young, very vulnerable, and very much in search of answers, certainty, rules I could follow to make my life right... Religious fundamentalism promised all of that. The Duggars seemed like a wonderful, shiny, happy family to me. I was raised in a liberal, secular environment in Canada, so I had not been exposed to the dark side of fundamentalism or conservative evangelicalism. And though I hadn't completely bought into it (I liked beer and evolution a little too much) I was going way too far down the rabbit hole.

FJ opened my eyes in a major way. It showed me who the Duggars really were, and what their brand (and the 'fundie-lite' brand) of religion was really all about. It was a slow and painful process, and for the first little while I basically hate-read the forum. But as I was hate-reading, stuff began to sink in. It chipped away at my preconceived beliefs and assumptions. Seeing people here challenge, call out and criticize specific fundies who I might otherwise have admired was really instrumental in educating me and getting me to reject that nonsense.

[SamiKatz]

The issue with Jeremy as well is that while he may be one of many with the same beliefs, he does have a public platform from which to preach them along with the visibility that being associated with the Counting ON television show has given him. That absolutely should be brought into the light and discussed.  Who knows what the effect of reading dissenting views might give to people who might stumble across this board?

Many others may share his beliefs, but you can't just give up or in to them.

[Tatar-tot]

Jinger seems to be in a much better place married then being an indentured servant in Casa de Tatar-Tot!

As Queen Victoria put nicely:  “I am not a breeding cow!”  I think this is the motto Jinger has adopted in her new life.  Hopefully she will continue to blossom as time marches on and her horizons on every front continues to expand.  

[Four is Enough]

About 20 years ago in my area, there was a push for "Christians supporting Christians" (yes, I'll admit to listening to Focus on the Family a few times, much to my chagrin)  The Yellow Pages were replete with advertisements with little fish in the corners... from those, you were supposed to choose a Christian to serve your needs, and "support" Christianity.

 

i continued using the services I knew and trusted. I knew even then that the patriarchy existed in those "Christian" environments, and I wanted NO part of that.

[nastyhobbitses]

2 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

About 20 years ago in my area, there was a push for "Christians supporting Christians" (yes, I'll admit to listening to Focus on the Family a few times, much to my chagrin)  The Yellow Pages were replete with advertisements with little fish in the corners... from those, you were supposed to choose a Christian to serve your needs, and "support" Christianity.

 

i continued using the services I knew and trusted. I knew even then that the patriarchy existed in those "Christian" environments, and I wanted NO part of that.

I don't see it as much in my neck of the woods, but I've seen businesses blatantly advertise themselves as Christian-owned/operating on Christian values. Maybe it's because I'm Jewish and 70 years ago doing that shit was a great way to get rid of your window glass (or worse), but all I think is "how does loving Jesus make you better at unclogging my toilet?"

[Palimpsest]

23 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

So I don't actually get @louisa05 point.

23 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Me either.

Make that three of us.  I think her post has been given far too much attention already.  We know that plenty of people have horrible beliefs.  That is why we talk about them.

9 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

Sometimes I really wish someone would announce a pregnancy just so we have something a bit more light hearted and real to talk about.

You know (general you) that you are not restricted to the Duggar sub-forum if you want light-hearted conversation.

If nothing interesting is happening in Duggar-land you can talk about books, cooking, cats, crafts, kids, politics, pets and even other TV shows elsewhere on FJ.

You can also discover the weird and wonderful worlds of other Fundie families like the Miserable Maxwells, the Arndts (where nothing ever changes), and the Seven Sisters (who are actually incredibly charming.)  The Sisters are genuinely spreading their wings beyond their Fundie beliefs and are a delight.

Also, from my perspective only, I've noticed more fan-girling, BEC, and petty squabbling on the Duggar and Bates threads than anywhere else on FJ.  

[singsingsing]

I also take issue with the idea that discussing Jeremy's beliefs isn't 'real' and that these people having more babies is 'light hearted'. Frankly, I wouldn't mind less 'light hearted' discussion here - if I never see another 'light hearted' post about how one of them needs to brush her hair more, or they're wearing the wrong colour cardigan, or 'X couple obvs kissed before marriage even though they said they didn't and gosh you guys I just know these two are different because my heart tells me so', I won't be disappointed.