2x2s/Friends and Workers/The Truth

[Baconandapples]

2 hours ago, Eponine said:

This is so interesting! I have heard of this group before but thought they were just the average conservative Christians.

I'm having a hard time understanding what they actually believe. It seems like the whole world here revolves around the members serving the "workers" and doing whatever they say...but to what purpose? What do the workers actually do for the friends? They believe that the Bible is the word of God and they have to follow it, but again I'm not really getting what they think that means?

It's fine to meet in homes and have the workers be celibate and penniless, but the structure of having them supported by the friends doesn't make much sense to me if they're not out there preaching doctrine and evangelizing. You said they don't know much about doctrine - do they just preach about how they think people can be saved? Like how they should act and such? I guess I'm trying to figure out what they talk about at the average convention if they don't have many defined beliefs apart from being celibate, penniless, and meeting in homes. Especially because it seems like evangelizing isn't a huge part of it.

(That said, fundie-ism never really makes much sense to me so I might be working too hard to find meaning here!)

There are a lot of complicated questions in this. ? I will try to explain what the workers do.

The workers visit around among the friends. This is called "privileges." If you don't get worker privileges it can be devastating. Just to have them visit is a great blessing to the friends, even though it can be extremely stressful. Blessings are usually stressful in the truth. The workers usually don't talk about the bible much in the friends' homes. Some do, but most just make small talk and banter. But you are trained from a very young child to revere the workers, so just having them around is a gift.

While workers don't do a lot of evangelizing in the community, they usually have gospel meetings somewhere in their field. These may be advertised in the paper or cards may be handed out to the friends to give to contacts. Usually outsiders don't come, but the meetings are always well attended by friends in the area. Gospel meetings are held in the friends' homes or in a rented room in a library or community center.

Workers and friends do not use notes when speaking. Their words are supposed to be a pouring out of the holy spirit, and the spirit can't work if you have already written down what you are going to say. Of course, most people can't just think of something to say in the moment, so they memorize something. I memorized two 2-5min testimonies per week while I was in. I would never have admitted it to anyone. After a while it became easier to ad lib.

The workers have to speak for much longer during the gospel meetings. 20-40 minutes. Usually they pick a passage of the bible and make some analogy about it, or a small observation that they then apply to "god's people", meaning the friends. There are lots of platitudes that all the friends and workers repeat, and these crop up when a worker can't think of something else to say. My favorite workers to listen to as a child were the ones who told stories, especially workers visiting back to the US from overseas. Sometimes they would just tell stories during their time "on the platform." That was the best. Usually there were stories of harrowing things people went through just to get to meeting, or how much someone had sacrificed to have a room and food for the workers. Often there were stories of people who left the truth and had something terrible happen to them. 

Looking back I can see that most of the sermons had very little substance, although the friends would disagree. When we were thinking about leaving, I took notes during convention just to see what they were actually saying, and found I couldn't follow it well enough to glean a message. I guess I just didn't "have the spirit" anymore. Many friends would say after a convention, "I can't remember much of what was said, but I know the spirit was there." The assignment for the bible study after convention was to share "convention gems", so you did have to remember something. 

[Baconandapples]

As usual, I am feeling a little bad after writing the last post. What I said is true of most workers, but there are definitely some who try to do more for the friends.

I know workers who put a lot of effort into what they do, and try to have something spiritual to share during visits. I also know workers who share special talents like cooking, gardening, woodworking, computer skills, etc when they are in the friends' homes. Some workers help the friends on their farms, or stack wood, or help with the kids. This is often discouraged by the workers in charge though. Some overseers have instructed younger workers not to help out around the house or "get too close to the friends", and in fact, it is considered a sign of maturity in the work NOT to do these things. 

All workers help out at preps though. This is when the convention grounds are made ready for convention. The workers are in charge and direct the friends on what to do, but the workers do a lot of physical labor during preps. 

[shufflingtowardsenlightenm]

Any ex 2x2's here (a tiny older fundy-light group)?

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

1 hour ago, shufflingtowardsenlightenm said:

Any ex 2x2's here (a tiny older fundy-light group)?

There was a discussion about the 2x2's last fall, including some ex-members. It took me a little while to find it, because it wasn't a discussion about that group, just some thread drift that took place in a thread about Bro. Gary (who is his own brand of ridiculous and dangerous). The talk about 2x2's starts about here:

There were some discussions about 2x2's in another thread, but not as much as in the Bro. Gary thread. I hope that helps!

Edited to add--

I was wrong! The discussion did move to it's own thread. Here it is:

Sorry I missed it the 1st time!

[Kailash]

@WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? You are such a lovely person. You’re always so helpful and kind. Thank you for being you. ❤️

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

@Kailash, you're making me blush. I think of myself a bit like Hermione Granger, raising my hand every time I know the answer to question. (I don't know as many answers as she did, but my hand shoots up the second I do. ?‍♀️ )

[Kailash]

1 minute ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

@Kailash, you're making me blush. I think of myself a bit like Hermione Granger, raising my hand every time I know the answer to question. (I don't know as many answers as she did, but my hand shoots up the second I do. ?‍♀️ )

This response made me love you even more! 

[shufflingtowardsenlightenm]

Thanks for fixing my thread!!!!

Thanks for directing me to this thread.  I have been out a lonnngggggg time (How the hell did I get this old) and my perspectives have changed somewhat over time.  

Reading this thread brought back the usual, "But what is it they believe?"  I've had this conversation before and its like pinning down smoke because of the lack of written documentation.  So I've adopted a simple explanation.  2x2's are a headless cult because Irvine got kicked out and no-one else took full control.  So instead of having a charismatic leader they basically worship their form of worship.  So the only real doctrine is that there are no church buildings (homes and gospel meetings only) and the only valid form of ministry is the 2x2 system of workers going out in pairs.  Everything else is actually fairly negotiable though 2x2's aren't all that flexible to change.  I think the appearance rules are pretty ingrained but can and do change. Though oddly, my impression as a west coast ex is that woman's dress standards may be a little STRICTER (read frumpy) than they were 30 years ago.  When I compare what my mom wore to the more recent funerals or other encounters I've had w/ 2/x2s I feel like the dresses have gotten longer, I think the other fundies are raising the bar by lowering the hemlines and lenghthening the sleeves.  But really there is no "there' there in the theology other than "We're right and you're wrong because you don't worship this way." 

There are tons of buzz words and brainwashing but really it comes down to protecting the belief that the place of the worship and how ministers go out are the only issues crucial to salvation.  And because that's pretty absurd you end up with preaching that is pretty much superficial platitudes and means nothing unless its about those two subjects.  Attending a gospel meeting or funeral after 20 years out (and exposure to actual Homiletics) is an eye opening, but boring experience.

My two cents worth.  I hope those of you who are exes are doing well since leaving.  I personally think it gets easier over time. Buzzwords still kind of set me off but other than that I'm in full recovery.

 

 

[Baconandapples]

4 hours ago, shufflingtowardsenlightenm said:

Thanks for fixing my thread!!!!

Thanks for directing me to this thread.  I have been out a lonnngggggg time (How the hell did I get this old) and my perspectives have changed somewhat over time.  

Reading this thread brought back the usual, "But what is it they believe?"  I've had this conversation before and its like pinning down smoke because of the lack of written documentation.  So I've adopted a simple explanation.  2x2's are a headless cult because Irvine got kicked out and no-one else took full control.  So instead of having a charismatic leader they basically worship their form of worship.  So the only real doctrine is that there are no church buildings (homes and gospel meetings only) and the only valid form of ministry is the 2x2 system of workers going out in pairs.  Everything else is actually fairly negotiable though 2x2's aren't all that flexible to change.  I think the appearance rules are pretty ingrained but can and do change. Though oddly, my impression as a west coast ex is that woman's dress standards may be a little STRICTER (read frumpy) than they were 30 years ago.  When I compare what my mom wore to the more recent funerals or other encounters I've had w/ 2/x2s I feel like the dresses have gotten longer, I think the other fundies are raising the bar by lowering the hemlines and lenghthening the sleeves.  But really there is no "there' there in the theology other than "We're right and you're wrong because you don't worship this way." 

There are tons of buzz words and brainwashing but really it comes down to protecting the belief that the place of the worship and how ministers go out are the only issues crucial to salvation.  And because that's pretty absurd you end up with preaching that is pretty much superficial platitudes and means nothing unless its about those two subjects.  Attending a gospel meeting or funeral after 20 years out (and exposure to actual Homiletics) is an eye opening, but boring experience.

My two cents worth.  I hope those of you who are exes are doing well since leaving.  I personally think it gets easier over time. Buzzwords still kind of set me off but other than that I'm in full recovery.

 

 

I agree with most of this, although because the form of the ministry is so important, the workers collectively end up being worshipped as well. Almost like a collective “charismatic leader”.

 I witnessed and participated in a lot of worker worship during my time in. I haven’t seen that level of leader worship in any sector of my life since being out.

It used to give me a warm fuzzy feeling to think about non professing aquaintences meeting the workers. Like if they only met the workers, they would automatically want to join the religion. 

[shufflingtowardsenlightenm]

4 hours ago, Baconandapples said:

I agree with most of this, although because the form of the ministry is so important, the workers collectively end up being worshipped as well. Almost like a collective “charismatic leader”.

 I witnessed and participated in a lot of worker worship during my time in. I haven’t seen that level of leader worship in any sector of my life since being out.

It used to give me a warm fuzzy feeling to think about non professing aquaintences meeting the workers. Like if they only met the workers, they would automatically want to join the religion. 

Fair point!!! I did not grow up in what exes sometimes refer to as a "super saint" family.  I was third generation but NO ONE in the family was a worker.  My parent's generation mostly married outsiders who converted or were recent converts. Only one of my generation married into one of those families  and I grew up in house that had hymns old and new on the piano but no convention worker photo. I realize now that that is fairly unusual.

I get what you mean about bringing people to the workers.  But the reality can be way different.  My spouses first encounter with a worker was at one of my parent's funerals.  Not Impressed would be the kindest interpretation of her opinion of both the service and the overseer who didn't deem it necessary to even speak to the non-professing members of the family.  At the same funeral one of my father's non 2x2 friends pulled me aside (I'm clearly no longer professing) and was basically like WTF?  So much for evangelism. 

 

 

[Baconandapples]

3 hours ago, shufflingtowardsenlightenm said:

Fair point!!! I did not grow up in what exes sometimes refer to as a "super saint" family.  I was third generation but NO ONE in the family was a worker.  My parent's generation mostly married outsiders who converted or were recent converts. Only one of my generation married into one of those families  and I grew up in house that had hymns old and new on the piano but no convention worker photo. I realize now that that is fairly unusual.

I get what you mean about bringing people to the workers.  But the reality can be way different.  My spouses first encounter with a worker was at one of my parent's funerals.  Not Impressed would be the kindest interpretation of her opinion of both the service and the overseer who didn't deem it necessary to even speak to the non-professing members of the family.  At the same funeral one of my father's non 2x2 friends pulled me aside (I'm clearly no longer professing) and was basically like WTF?  So much for evangelism. 

 

 

Yeah, looking back I guess we were super saints. Although we privately called other people that. Lol!

We had the convention photo and pictures of our worker relatives around the house. But more than that, we believed  the workers and “hearty” friends were the only worthwhile people to spend time with. Not that we didn’t spend time with other people, but we always had our guard up so we wouldn’t accidentally learn anything from them. Pretty messed up.

The last time I was in a fellowship meeting was last year before a funeral. I agree that “boring” is the best way to describe it after being out a few years. No one even preached at us, which is something I remember being really sensitive to at the end when shit hit the fan for my family. Maybe I’m just no longer tuned in to the subtleties of professing passive aggression. Although a relative did take my husband aside after and said we were going to hell (in the nicest way possible!)

Confession: I still occasionally have Hymns Old and New on my piano. I’m not very proficient and those hymns are some of the only songs I know. So when I want to play piano I pull it out. I recently embarked on a project to connect all those hymns to their roots in other hymnals. A satisfying exercise, as many friends believe the workers wrote them all!

[rsal]

I am an ex 2x2. My parents and grandparents are active members. We have had serveral workers in the family.

I think my experiences with the Friends and Workers are the reason I'm irresitablly curious about fundies in general. I usually only secretly lurk, but randomly coming across this thread compelled me to create a profile. 

 

[Grimalkin]

    I’m so glad you are here! I have asked a few times on and off over the years if any 2x2s were around. We used to have a townhouse we rented out really cheap to a girl and her cousin who left this group. It was fascinating to hear about it. I knew about most of these rules but her family is wealthy so they can do what they want. Her father who is very respected is divorced and married a few times. I look forward to reading more in depth.

[rsal]

On 4/20/2019 at 3:08 AM, Baconandapples said:

Confession: I still occasionally have Hymns Old and New on my piano. I’m not very proficient and those hymns are some of the only songs I know. So when I want to play piano I pull it out. I recently embarked on a project to connect all those hymns to their roots in other hymnals. A satisfying exercise, as many friends believe the workers wrote them all!

My mom took mine back after several years and it was clear I wasn't returning to "the fold". She said that the workers asked people to try and get the hymn books from non-professing folks so that the books didn't end up in the wrong hands.

[Baconandapples]

10 hours ago, rsal said:

My mom took mine back after several years and it was clear I wasn't returning to "the fold". She said that the workers asked people to try and get the hymn books from non-professing folks so that the books didn't end up in the wrong hands.

Ha! As if there’s a vast network of people trying to destroy the group using hymn books. 

[Baconandapples]

21 hours ago, Grimalkin said:

    I’m so glad you are here! I have asked a few times on and off over the years if any 2x2s were around. We used to have a townhouse we rented out really cheap to a girl and her cousin who left this group. It was fascinating to hear about it. I knew about most of these rules but her family is wealthy so they can do what they want. Her father who is very respected is divorced and married a few times. I look forward to reading more in depth.

Yep, there’s a different standard for people are wealthy and give lots of money to the workers. I’ve seen the “no taking part for a year after divorce” rule mysteriously not applied to the daughter of a rich family, when it had been applied to other less illustrious divorcees in the same town. Pointing that out would just prove you have a bad spirit, so people pretend the workers must have had some righteous justification for the discrepancy.

[Grimalkin]

@Baconandapples what always surprised me about this group is how nobody really knows about them and there are quite a few in my community. It turns out I knew their Aunt from work and we were always really friendly towards each other and never knew she belonged to this group. 

        The girl who was renting from us was trying out some different churches and her dad was so upset when she started going to a local Mega Church.

      The girl and her cousin actually trashed our place and owe us a few months rent, but we have never really pursued it. Last I heard she was really floundering. Her cousin seems to of gotten himself together and is living a normal life. 

[Baconandapples]

8 hours ago, Grimalkin said:

@Baconandapples what always surprised me about this group is how nobody really knows about them and there are quite a few in my community. It turns out I knew their Aunt from work and we were always really friendly towards each other and never knew she belonged to this group. 

        The girl who was renting from us was trying out some different churches and her dad was so upset when she started going to a local Mega Church.

      The girl and her cousin actually trashed our place and owe us a few months rent, but we have never really pursued it. Last I heard she was really floundering. Her cousin seems to of gotten himself together and is living a normal life. 

It’s hard not to flounder when leaving this group. It’s seems so benign, but there is major mind control going on and people tend to fall apart when that’s gone.

It’s still amazing to me how many people on here know of the 2x2s!

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

I just thought I'd try tagging @Ex 2x2, in case they hadn't noticed that this thread is active again. I peeked at their profile, and they've been on FJ within the last week, so I figured it was worth a try!

[frumperlicious]

I recently discovered the podcast Beautiful stories from Anonymous people (alsoknown as Beautiful Anonymous) and am listening from the beginning. Today was an episode from late 2016 on a woman who was in the 2x2s! Did t delve into a ton, but thoughtI would mention it. 

[Baconandapples]

On 4/28/2019 at 10:30 PM, frumperlicious said:

I recently discovered the podcast Beautiful stories from Anonymous people (alsoknown as Beautiful Anonymous) and am listening from the beginning. Today was an episode from late 2016 on a woman who was in the 2x2s! Did t delve into a ton, but thoughtI would mention it. 

That’s cool! Which episode was it?

[Marmion]

On 12/5/2018 at 3:17 PM, precious blessing said:

Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and experience in the cult, it's really eye-opening. I apologize if it's been covered, but what's the cult's view on higher education?

Much of what you've described reminds me of a girl I attended community college with. She was young, pretty, she always wore her hair in a bun and and modern but modest clothes, always long skirts so I had her pegged as a fundgelical or mennonite. No jewelry, no makeup. She seemed reserved and quiet but pretty normal, she eventually started hanging with some normie girl. I think when asked in a class if she was christian, she described herself as religous, but I may not remember clearly. She really stood out to me.

She might have been Conservative Holiness  .  My immediate family currently attends a Bible Methodist church , so I know a bit about this .  I largely grew up in the Church of the Nazarene  , which is still Holiness , but not as strict as the Conservative Holiness offshoot , the Pilgrim Nazarene Church .  From what I have read , the " 2x2 s "  appear to simply be an especially cult like form of the  Holiness Movement , so I feel that I can relate to some extent . 

[Kiwi ex 2x2]

I was born and raised 4th generation 2x2 in New Zealand. After my cognitive dissonance became deafening, I came to my senses and left all religion behind some 24 years ago but I'm happy to add a kiwi perspective to this thread. I'm fascinated to read the experiences others and concur with the pernicious blight it is on so many lives.

[Sarcastically spinster]

I know some ex 2x2s as well, some very well.  

It's ingenious, really.  Teach that your religion is handed down unchanged direct from the apostles, but also teach that nothing can be written down so there's no accountability for the supposedly unchanged beliefs.  Quietly sweep regional differences under the rug and don't think too hard about the fact that if all the workers have the spirit and these beliefs are supposedly the same everywhere and unchanged throughout the world since the apostles that you shouldn't have those regional differences.  So much harder to disentangle when nothing is written down.  

The level of mind control and fear and guilt that you'll go to hell for the tiniest things is insane.  Panic attacks over putting on a pair of pants, or a piece of jewelry.  It's awful. 

[ex-2x2]

I'm an ex 2x2 as well - specifically joined FJ to follow this topic. If there are any other questions people have, I'm happy to answer them.