2x2s/Friends and Workers/The Truth

[Lisafer]

48 minutes ago, Baconandapples said:

Yes. We have put up a Christmas tree four years in a row now. This is the first year I have not felt a hollow, guilty feeling when I look at it. The friends and workers would say that’s because I have hardened my heart to the holy spirit.

Hugs! It's ok, it really is. You're not a sinner, no matter what the feelings tell you. You're a normal human being enjoying normal human activites. (I'm sure you understand all that, but sometimes it's nice to have somebody else tell you!)

[Baconandapples]

16 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

Hugs! It's ok, it really is. You're not a sinner, no matter what the feelings tell you. You're a normal human being enjoying normal human activites. (I'm sure you understand all that, but sometimes it's nice to have somebody else tell you!)

Thanks! It is weird to have to ignore your feelings because they are so skewed, and then try to learn to trust them again.

[samurai_sarah]

31 minutes ago, Baconandapples said:

Thanks! It is weird to have to ignore your feelings because they are so skewed, and then try to learn to trust them again.

You're doing a great job! And it's wonderful that you can speak out about it all. You are one strong, clever and witty person!!! Your strength and grace in speaking about all of this, in a calm and objective manner, serves as an example to me. You're great!

[Baconandapples]

17 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

You're doing a great job! And it's wonderful that you can speak out about it all. You are one strong, clever and witty person!!! Your strength and grace in speaking about all of this, in a calm and objective manner, serves as an example to me. You're great!

Thank you for your kind words samurai Sarah!

[samurai_sarah]

12 minutes ago, Baconandapples said:

Thank you for your kind words samurai Sarah!

I'm not kind. I'm just telling you the truth, as I see it. You are a wonderful, insightful person, who questions and makes choices right for them. You are kind to yourself and others. And you question! That is admirable. You're amazing! You are just amazing!

[precious blessing]

Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and experience in the cult, it's really eye-opening. I apologize if it's been covered, but what's the cult's view on higher education?

Much of what you've described reminds me of a girl I attended community college with. She was young, pretty, she always wore her hair in a bun and and modern but modest clothes, always long skirts so I had her pegged as a fundgelical or mennonite. No jewelry, no makeup. She seemed reserved and quiet but pretty normal, she eventually started hanging with some normie girl. I think when asked in a class if she was christian, she described herself as religous, but I may not remember clearly. She really stood out to me.

Edited December 5, 2018 by precious blessing
confused methodist with mennonite, doh

[Baconandapples]

36 minutes ago, precious blessing said:

Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and experience in the cult, it's really eye-opening. I apologize if it's been covered, but what's the cult's view on higher education?

Much of what you've described reminds me of a girl I attended community college with. She was young, pretty, she always wore her hair in a bun and and modern but modest clothes, always long skirts so I had her pegged as a fundgelical or mennonite. No jewelry, no makeup. She seemed reserved and quiet but pretty normal, she eventually started hanging with some normie girl. I think when asked in a class if she was christian, she described herself as religous, but I may not remember clearly. She really stood out to me.

The 2x2 position on higher education is complicated and has changed a lot in recent years especially in certain parts of the country. 

There used to be prohibitions against higher education, and in some parts of the country very few friends go to college and those who do are frowned upon.

Here in the east it is accepted that young people may pursue higher education, although many do not. There are some off limits professions, like military, law enforcement, the entertainment industry, and anything for women that would require them to cut their hair or wear pants regularly. 

There are some highly educated friends, including doctors, lawyers, scientists, and college professors. As long as they keep humble in the meetings they are acceptable, especially those who provide free healthcare and legal advice to the workers! 

The important thing is to keep humble and be easily led. As long as no one can tell by your attitude or way of speaking that you’re educated, it’s all good.

That girl in school may well have been a 2x2. 2x2s often behave more normally when immersed in the world, including having friendships with worldly people even though it is discouraged.  They just don’t talk about it too much or they spin it as an effort to bring the Truth to those people.

I was reprimanded once for talking about an outside friend to one of the workers as if she was an equal.

[Briefly]

I want to add my voice to those welcoming you here.  We can be a bit intense at times, but we aren't bad.  After reading your descriptions and also @precious blessing's description, I think the woman who worked for my boss's business rental tenant may have also belonged to 2X2.  I always thought she was fundy in some way but could never quite figure her out, but now I think that's what she was.

[Baconandapples]

12 minutes ago, Briefly said:

I want to add my voice to those welcoming you here.  We can be a bit intense at times, but we aren't bad.  After reading your descriptions and also @precious blessing's description, I think the woman who worked for my boss's business rental tenant may have also belonged to 2X2.  I always thought she was fundy in some way but could never quite figure her out, but now I think that's what she was.

Thanks!  You all seem pretty nice so far. 

the Friends are supposed to be set apart from the world. Not to the extreme like the Amish, but just enough so that people in the world notice something different about their “spirit.”  You hear often in the testimonies of converts that the first thing they noticed about the friends was their “meek and quiet spirit”. I think in many cases they’re really noticing the outward differences.

A person’s “Spirit” and outward appearance are often conflated in this way so that it becomes really hard to follow.

The 2x2s believe that they are lights in the world and seeking souls will be drawn to them. I remember workers saying that everyone in the world gets a chance to come in contact with one of the friends in their lifetime. This is their “chance” to receive salvation. It’s mostly up to the unsuspecting worldling to make inquiries as to the source of the meek and quiet spirit, whereupon they will be directed to the workers and profess in a gospel meeting. 

So if the woman you described was indeed a 2x2, just crossing paths with her would be considered your golden opportunity to find gods true way and salvation. 

[PumaLover]

Wow, thank you for all of this information. I always love learning about new cults and it's especially interesting to hear about them from the perspective of someone who has lived it. I just also wanted to welcome you and thank you for your post. I'm glad to hear that you were able to get out. I hope your transition gets easier each year.

One quick question (I'm going to check out the Wikipedia post too) but what is the significance of the "name" 2x2?

[Baconandapples]

16 minutes ago, PumaLover said:

Wow, thank you for all of this information. I always love learning about new cults and it's especially interesting to hear about them from the perspective of someone who has lived it. I just also wanted to welcome you and thank you for your post. I'm glad to hear that you were able to get out. I hope your transition gets easier each year.

One quick question (I'm going to check out the Wikipedia post too) but what is the significance of the "name" 2x2?

The friends and workers definitely don’t call themselves 2x2, but some outsiders and exes use the name. It refers to the custom of the workers to “go forth two by two” like the apostles did for a brief time in the New Testament. They believe that they are a continuation of the 12 apostles. 

Every year at convention time the overseer mixes up each pair so that they have new “companions” or “coworkers.” Usually an experienced worker is paired with a younger, frailer or trouble worker. Each pair gets a geographic area as their “field” for the year.

[Ex 2x2]

Hi I’m here! Sorry I’m just seeing this. @Baconandapples, I totally hear you about the Christmas tree. When my family was on the verge of leaving, my mom put up a Christmas tree. One of the workers stopped by and saw it. At the next meeting, he spoke about Christmas trees. ?? 

I just skimmed this thread so I’ll go back and read it. Glad we’re talking about it!

@Baconandapples, you mentioned buns and skirts at meetings. When I was in, we had to wear that all the time. Has that changed? Younger girls didn’t always wear their hair up, but of course we couldn’t cut it. And it was all skirts, all the time. 

[Ozlsn]

On 12/5/2018 at 12:46 PM, Baconandapples said:

Australia and NZ have lots of members. 

Now I'm curious. Do you know which parts they're in? I've never heard of them, and I thought I was on top of most of the Christian groups.

[Baconandapples]

4 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

Now I'm curious. Do you know which parts they're in? I've never heard of them, and I thought I was on top of most of the Christian groups.

They are all over. I have never been to either of those countries, but I know people who live there. There are multiple meetings in every large city and also scattered through rural areas. Each meeting usually contains enough friends to fill a living room, and they meet twice per week. Every inch of the country is divided into territories and pairs of workers are responsible for those territories.

Interestly enough, Christmas trees are OK in Australia and NZ.

7 hours ago, Ex 2x2 said:

Hi I’m here! Sorry I’m just seeing this. @Baconandapples, I totally hear you about the Christmas tree. When my family was on the verge of leaving, my mom put up a Christmas tree. One of the workers stopped by and saw it. At the next meeting, he spoke about Christmas trees. ?? 

I just skimmed this thread so I’ll go back and read it. Glad we’re talking about it!

@Baconandapples, you mentioned buns and skirts at meetings. When I was in, we had to wear that all the time. Has that changed? Younger girls didn’t always wear their hair up, but of course we couldn’t cut it. And it was all skirts, all the time. 

Hi ex 2x2! Glad you joined the conversation!

The workers still feel the same about skirts and buns, but a lot of millennials are wearing pants during the week and cutting their hair at shortest to their shoulder blades. Right before I left I cut mine shoulder length, but I could still put it up and tuck in the ends for meeting.

[Baconandapples]

4 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

Now I'm curious. Do you know which parts they're in? I've never heard of them, and I thought I was on top of most of the Christian groups.

Here’s a newspaper article that mentions the Truth in Australia, in connection with a tragic suicide case: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.smh.com.au/national/secrets-lies-and-sex-abuse-as-exsect-leader-chooses-life-on-the-inside-20140727-3cnnc.html

In spite of how this article makes it sound, there are plenty of good friends and workers in Australia. It is really hard to get out once you’re indoctrinated into the group, especially for the workers because they sell all their stuff and give their money to the overseers. They have no money, no jobs and no marketable skills if they leave.

[Baconandapples]

5 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

Now I'm curious. Do you know which parts they're in? I've never heard of them, and I thought I was on top of most of the Christian groups.

Ozlsn, I hope you don’t feel like I’m spamming you, but here is an even better article about the 2x2s  in Australia that was linked in the first: https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/friends-and-enemies-truth-and-lies-20130922-2u7t4.html

They’ve gotten a lot of bad press over there for sure! Workers in Australia have been even more reluctant to fix CSA problems than workers in the US.

[Ozlsn]

6 hours ago, Baconandapples said:

Ozlsn, I hope you don’t feel like I’m spamming you, but here is an even better article about the 2x2s  in Australia that was linked inno the first: https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/friends-and-enemies-truth-and-lies-20130922-2u7t4.html

They’ve gotten a lot of bad press over there for sure! Workers in Australia have been even more reluctant to fix CSA problems than workers in the US.

Both articles were very interesting, thank you! They're quite widely spread out, but with very small numbers (2000 is tiny for a religion here, I doubt they even blip on the census) and looks like predominantly rural (I laughed when I read one convention was at Speed, because... well, it's tiny (pop: 78). Not somewhere I ever would have expected a 'convention' to be - farm days and show maybe) which is interesting given the majority of Australia's population is urban. The people coming forward to police about sexual abuse seem to have done so after the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse started, so I hope the publicity surrounding that helped. (And if there's one thing we learned from the Commission it is that predators can flourish anywhere, and most groups are very bad at dealing with it.)

Is it predominantly rural in the US as well? 

[Baconandapples]

9 minutes ago, Ozlsn said:

Both articles were very interesting, thank you! They're quite widely spread out, but with very small numbers (2000 is tiny for a religion here, I doubt they even blip on the census) and looks like predominantly rural (I laughed when I read one convention was at Speed, because... well, it's tiny (pop: 78). Not somewhere I ever would have expected a 'convention' to be - farm days and show maybe) which is interesting given the majority of Australia's population is urban. The people coming forward to police about sexual abuse seem to have done so after the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse started, so I hope the publicity surrounding that helped. (And if there's one thing we learned from the Commission it is that predators can flourish anywhere, and most groups are very bad at dealing with it.)

Is it predominantly rural in the US as well? 

No, there are larger numbers of 2x2s in big cities. The reason conventions are rural is because that is where the 2x2 held properties are. For example: there are lots of meetings in NYC, but no convention there. Friends from NYC travel to Altamont NY for convention.

[samurai_sarah]

May I ask why Christmas trees are okay in AUS and NZ?

[Baconandapples]

26 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

May I ask why Christmas trees are okay in AUS and NZ?

I have no idea. Different overseers are in charge there, and they have a slightly different set of restrictions that they enforce. There are many issues like that.

Divorce and remarriage is a big one. In the eastern us it gets a hand slap and a year of meeting speaking privileges revoked. In the West there used to be an overseer who would actually make the remarried couple divorce each other before they could come to meetings at all. 

Bangs are OK in parts of Canada, but not in the US...lots of little examples. 

The claim to be the same “the world over”, but the only thing that truly unites them is the belief that their church is the only way to salvation. 

[Briefly]

22 hours ago, Baconandapples said:

Thanks!  You all seem pretty nice so far. 

the Friends are supposed to be set apart from the world. Not to the extreme like the Amish, but just enough so that people in the world notice something different about their “spirit.”  You hear often in the testimonies of converts that the first thing they noticed about the friends was their “meek and quiet spirit”. I think in many cases they’re really noticing the outward differences.

A person’s “Spirit” and outward appearance are often conflated in this way so that it becomes really hard to follow.

The 2x2s believe that they are lights in the world and seeking souls will be drawn to them. I remember workers saying that everyone in the world gets a chance to come in contact with one of the friends in their lifetime. This is their “chance” to receive salvation. It’s mostly up to the unsuspecting worldling to make inquiries as to the source of the meek and quiet spirit, whereupon they will be directed to the workers and profess in a gospel meeting. 

So if the woman you described was indeed a 2x2, just crossing paths with her would be considered your golden opportunity to find gods true way and salvation. 

Well then I guess I missed my chance!  But that explains quite a bit, she was a nice person but she was "different" in some ways.  Not in a bad way.  But she was often willing to discuss religion, etc. with my elderly boss and he had long conversations with her.  He was a very devout Christian and not interested in changing churches at all, but I think she did try to get him to go to her church with her.  But I don't remember her ever actually naming her church.  The more that I think about it, I'm more convinced tat she did belong to the 2X2's.

[Baconandapples]

1 hour ago, Briefly said:

Well then I guess I missed my chance!  But that explains quite a bit, she was a nice person but she was "different" in some ways.  Not in a bad way.  But she was often willing to discuss religion, etc. with my elderly boss and he had long conversations with her.  He was a very devout Christian and not interested in changing churches at all, but I think she did try to get him to go to her church with her.  But I don't remember her ever actually naming her church.  The more that I think about it, I'm more convinced tat she did belong to the 2X2's.

Many of the friends are nice and kind people. If the 2x2s were just a bunch of plain dressing, homechurching regular people it wouldn’t be so bad. The problem comes from the control the workers have. They are the focus of the group and what keeps it together. The friends worship them. 

The friends will rearrange their entire schedule to accommodate a worker visit. It’s not forbidden to refuse a visit, but it’s rarely done. The workers would say that’s because the friends “have a heart for God’s servants.”

The friends buy special food and go to extra effort to prepare something they wouldn’t normally. I remember my parents being so stressed out before worker visits. After we got married, the workers stayed at our house as well and I felt similar stress.

The friends will drive for hours to attend a gospel meeting in order to hear the workers speak. They will then quote the workers’ words reverently in their weekly “testimonies.”

The workers are considered gods annointed. At some point after they offer for the work, the spirit infuses them and everything they do and say is the result of direct instruction from god. At least that’s what they said before the sex abuse scandals. After the scandals, there was no public apology or acknowledgement, only whisperings and fear. If anyone asked, they were told that “people aren’t perfect but the way is perfect.” The story changes constantly as the people in charge do anything to maintain their power.

The workers are the 2x2s you won’t meet at work or school, but they are the reason for the group existing. They are the mission statement. 

When the workers preach they often mention the “need of the harvest field.” This is to encourage young people to go in the work. Young professing people who are strong in the faith spend anguished hours in prayer trying to figure out if god has called them into the work. Many start out as young as 18 or 19 with an older companion. After 10 years of not cooking, changing their own sheets, or doing anything other than repeating 2x2 approved interpretations of the bible, they are stuck and either have to dig themselves in deep and become part of the problem or leave the work and start life over from scratch. 

I have at least 8 ex or current workers in my extended family. The work is the weirdest and most messed up about the 2x2s, IMO. There are a workers I love who are really good people, but it so hard to for them to do anything different the longer they stay. And some feel they are making a positive difference in people’s lives.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Baconandapples
I reread it and it sounded too harsh on people I still care about

[samurai_sarah]

5 hours ago, Baconandapples said:

I have no idea. Different overseers are in charge there, and they have a slightly different set of restrictions that they enforce. There are many issues like that.

Divorce and remarriage is a big one. In the eastern us it gets a hand slap and a year of meeting speaking privileges revoked. In the West there used to be an overseer who would actually make the remarried couple divorce each other before they could come to meetings at all. 

Bangs are OK in parts of Canada, but not in the US...lots of little examples. 

The claim to be the same “the world over”, but the only thing that truly unites them is the belief that their church is the only way to salvation. 

Why?

Sorry, I know that's a big question to answer. And you've already done so much!

[Baconandapples]

9 hours ago, samurai_sarah said:

Why?

Sorry, I know that's a big question to answer. And you've already done so much!

Are you asking why the 2x2s believe they are the only right way? If so:

They believe that the Bible is god’s word and must be followed completely for salvation to occur. They believe that Jesus sent out the apostles homeless, penniless, celibate and 2x2, and that this example was God’s long term plan for the ministry. They believe that God planned for his people to meet in homes and that he abhors church buildings. They use verses from Acts to substantiate this. 

As far as I know, while home churching is common, the 2x2 ministry is unique. So they believe they are the only people on earth following what the Bible says.

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Baconandapples
Spelling

[Eponine]

This is so interesting! I have heard of this group before but thought they were just the average conservative Christians.

I'm having a hard time understanding what they actually believe. It seems like the whole world here revolves around the members serving the "workers" and doing whatever they say...but to what purpose? What do the workers actually do for the friends? They believe that the Bible is the word of God and they have to follow it, but again I'm not really getting what they think that means?

It's fine to meet in homes and have the workers be celibate and penniless, but the structure of having them supported by the friends doesn't make much sense to me if they're not out there preaching doctrine and evangelizing. You said they don't know much about doctrine - do they just preach about how they think people can be saved? Like how they should act and such? I guess I'm trying to figure out what they talk about at the average convention if they don't have many defined beliefs apart from being celibate, penniless, and meeting in homes. Especially because it seems like evangelizing isn't a huge part of it.

(That said, fundie-ism never really makes much sense to me so I might be working too hard to find meaning here!)