American Missionary Killed by Indigenous Tribe

[Soulhuntress]

3 hours ago, FullOfGravy said:

Tl;dr - linguistics training would be a good idea for someone with Chau's ambitions, but he didn't get enough of it, and didn't use what he did get.

And that was what the Elliott expedition had that Chau lacked. 

[nastyhobbitses]

On 12/4/2018 at 8:30 AM, Petronella said:

I'm usually good at parsing evangelical, but I admit I don't get this one. Can you explain what they mean by it?

At least how I'm parsing it, it means "when people say no/they're not interested in converting your particular brand of fundieism, it's just God giving you a challenge!" It's basically the rapey "she's just playing hard to get, bro" now with more Jeebus. 

[Black Aliss]

On 12/4/2018 at 12:30 AM, Petronella said:

Quote

The quote "no must mean a divine yes" explains so goddamn much. 

I'm usually good at parsing evangelical, but I admit I don't get this one. Can you explain what they mean by it?

I think they mean the same thing the Yale frat boys meant when they marched around the campus chanting "No means yes! Yes means anal!"  In other words, "we are so entitled that what you say means nothing to us."

[Beermeet]

5 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

I think they mean the same thing the Yale frat boys meant when they marched around the campus chanting "No means yes! Yes means anal!"  In other words, "we are so entitled that what you say means nothing to us."

Wait a minute.  That actually happened?  For real?  In my mind the girls and decent boys kicked the ever living shit out of whoever was chanting that. Please let that be part of the story. 

[Black Aliss]

52 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

Quote

I think they mean the same thing the Yale frat boys meant when they marched around the campus chanting "No means yes! Yes means anal!"  In other words, "we are so entitled that what you say means nothing to us."

Wait a minute.  That actually happened?  For real?  In my mind the girls and decent boys kicked the ever living shit out of whoever was chanting that. Please let that be part of the story. 

I feel sick to my stomach just having to say that yes it happened. In 2011, and no, that was not a "different time". Oh, yeah, and this was Bret Kavenaugh's fraternity when he was at Yale.

https://bigthink.com/focal-point/no-means-yes-yes-means-anal-frat-banned-from-yale

Spoiler

 

 

[Jigsaw3]

That whole incident is just horrifying still. I met a dude from Yale at the pub one night a few months later (friend-of-a-friend) who didn't know anyone concerned, but tried to defend the frat SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WERE YALIES and Yalies can do no wrong. The closing-of-the-ranks was disgusting. I ripped him apart. (My friend was also horrified, to his credit.)

[Glasgowghirl]

On 12/9/2018 at 4:02 PM, Jigsaw3 said:

That whole incident is just horrifying still. I met a dude from Yale at the pub one night a few months later (friend-of-a-friend) who didn't know anyone concerned, but tried to defend the frat SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WERE YALIES and Yalies can do no wrong. The closing-of-the-ranks was disgusting. I ripped him apart. (My friend was also horrified, to his credit.)

Sadly, people think that it acceptable either because they see it as a joke or the still see women as an object they can look at.

[nausicaa]

39 minutes ago, Glasgowghirl said:

Sadly, people think that it acceptable either because they see it as a joke or the still see women as an object they can look at.

Sadly, I don't even think that chant is a Yale exclusive thing either. I've heard of the chant, and similar, being used at frats at the University of Virginia. 

[DarkAnts]

Remember the missionary who was killed while trying to convert the Sentinelese. 

Well, his father blames extreme Christianity for his sons actions. He also said that his son should not be healed up as a hero. He was misguided.

https://www.faithwire.com/2019/02/04/john-allen-chaus-father-says-extreme-christianity-led-to-sons-murder/

I agree with this. I don’t think John had bad intentions when he tried to convert the tribe. I don’t condone his actions. I do think that his belief system played a part in his actions. This is just one of many examples of extreme/cult Christianity causing harm in the world. 

 

[anjulibai]

I hate this being characterized as a murder. He was not murdered. People defending their land from an invader aren't murders. 

I'm glad that this is making some people question this version of Christianity. At least something good to come out of it. 

[DarkAnts]

I agree, it was not a murder. He was given warnings from the tribe to stay away. He did not listen. I wonder how much of that was due to extreme religious views and how much was due to ego. Was he afraid to return to his home church as a failure? So many unanswered questions.  

[Terrie]

On 3/20/2019 at 2:01 PM, DarkAnts said:

I don’t think John had bad intentions when he tried to convert the tribe.

I suppose that depends on how you define "bad" intentions. He certainly thought he was doing a good thing, but so do most extremists. He knew the potrential for harm to the community, and he didn't care. I certainly wouldn't call his intentions good ones.

[NakedKnees]

1 hour ago, Terrie said:

I suppose that depends on how you define "bad" intentions. He certainly thought he was doing a good thing, but so do most extremists. He knew the potrential for harm to the community, and he didn't care. I certainly wouldn't call his intentions good ones.

I agree really strongly with this. It's like... where do you draw the line with "good intentions" being valid? Neocolonialist missionaries? Gay conversion therapy? Eugenics?

I think this is why "impact is more important than intention" is such a common theme in social justice communities these days. I do think "intention" may be important on an individual psychological level- like whether someone is out to actively do harm, or not, or somewhere in between. I'm really not educated in that area though.

[Dreadcrumbs]

2 hours ago, NakedKnees said:

I agree really strongly with this. It's like... where do you draw the line with "good intentions" being valid? Neocolonialist missionaries? Gay conversion therapy? Eugenics?

I think this is why "impact is more important than intention" is such a common theme in social justice communities these days. I do think "intention" may be important on an individual psychological level- like whether someone is out to actively do harm, or not, or somewhere in between. I'm really not educated in that area though.

*nods*

The intention may have been good, but the potential harm was so great. Chau could have wiped the entire tribe out if they were exposed to a pathogen their bodies couldn't fight.

[Lurky]

2 hours ago, Dreadcrumbs said:

The intention may have been good, but the potential harm was so great. Chau could have wiped the entire tribe out if they were exposed to a pathogen their bodies couldn't fight.

We still don't know if he caused them lasting physical damage, because they're still completely isolated (more damage than putting them on the map for other extreme "missionaries" to try to target, I mean)

[ViolaSebastian]

5 hours ago, NakedKnees said:

I agree really strongly with this. It's like... where do you draw the line with "good intentions" being valid? Neocolonialist missionaries? Gay conversion therapy? Eugenics?

I think this is why "impact is more important than intention" is such a common theme in social justice communities these days. I do think "intention" may be important on an individual psychological level- like whether someone is out to actively do harm, or not, or somewhere in between. I'm really not educated in that area though.

When I went through my social work programs, there was a large emphasis on being very careful to consider that actions and programs that we think are going to be strictly positive may have unintended consequences. That's why it's so vital to involve people from the population or community with which you're working in the planning and implementation process, way before you go in all guns a-blazin' to do "good." Having never lived in certain communities or never having had certain life experiences means that I can't fully understand what a change can do to that community.

[Briefly]

6 hours ago, Dreadcrumbs said:

*nods*

The intention may have been good, but the potential harm was so great. Chau could have wiped the entire tribe out if they were exposed to a pathogen their bodies couldn't fight.

I think it's a serious concern, and we may not ever know.  I haven't seen anything about them since the initial furor over his death.  Had the Indian government issued any statements about their wellbeing?

[Dreadcrumbs]

7 minutes ago, Briefly said:

I think it's a serious concern, and we may not ever know.  I haven't seen anything about them since the initial furor over his death.  Had the Indian government issued any statements about their wellbeing?

I figured if the Indian govt had anything to say about their well being, it would have been reported, given how big this story was. But I could be wrong. ?‍♀️

[DarkAnts]

15 hours ago, Dreadcrumbs said:

I figured if the Indian govt had anything to say about their well being, it would have been reported, given how big this story was. But I could be wrong. ?‍♀️

I don’t think the Indian  government wants to draw more attention to this situation. I don’t know if there is a way for them to check on the tribe without making them upset. 

Edited March 23, 2019 by DarkAnts

[dharmapunk]

It seems that John's father is an intelligent as well as compassionate man. Too bad it didn't rub off on his son.

[Lurky]

1 hour ago, DarkAnts said:

I don’t think the Indian  government wants to draw more attention to this situation. I don’t know if there is a way for them to check on the tribe without making them upset.

Yeah, interventions like sending a helicopter out to hover over the island filming the islanders would be incredibly disruptive, and against the laws about letting them live in the isolation they've chosen.

[Glasgowghirl]

2 hours ago, dharmapunk said:

It seems that John's father is an intelligent as well as compassionate man. Too bad it didn't rub off on his son.

I feel sorry for his parents, John sounded like he was determined to try and convert the tribe, no matter how many warnings he was given and for his parents it must have been frustrating knowing that he was going to keep trying until he died. I have very little sympathy for John but have a great deal of sympathy for the his parents and those around him that were trying to talk him out of it. 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

My Mom used to say, “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”.

I feel badly that father lost his son, twice, for Christ sakes .

[DarkAnts]

1 hour ago, Glasgowghirl said:

I feel sorry for his parents, John sounded like he was determined to try and convert the tribe, no matter how many warnings he was given and for his parents it must have been frustrating knowing that he was going to keep trying until he died. I have very little sympathy for John but have a great deal of sympathy for the his parents and those around him that were trying to talk him out of it. 

Unfortunately he had an echo chamber full of people telling him to do it.

[Glasgowghirl]

2 minutes ago, DarkAnts said:

Unfortunately he had an echo chamber full of people telling him to do it.

It seems that way, even now people are defending his actions. The romanticing of what happened to Jim Elliot and other missionary's didn't help either, he was still an adult and made his own choice but maybe if more people with the same beliefs as him, were telling him how much of a bad idea it was, then he may have reconsidered it.