Chelsy and John Maxwell 6: They're More Frightened of Her than Ashamed

[HerNameIsBuffy]

continued from...

thanks @Granwych for the thread title.

[Granwych]

Anytime.  Thanks for the mention!!  The Maxes were the first fundies I followed. (I now hesitate to add the "wells" to their names, lol)

[sophrosyne]

Who are the Buckinghales?

Do they have a website and/or social media?

[catlady]

@HerNameIsBuffy, from the end of the last thread:  John and Chelsy live about as far away as Joe and Elissa, so about 3/4 mile. And I think others have said that they are near J&E. 

[nelliebelle1197]

4 hours ago, sophrosyne said:

Who are the Buckinghales?

Do they have a website and/or social media?

That is  not a quick answer. Google "papa Pilgrim" and hold on to your hat.

[nelliebelle1197]

6 hours ago, sophrosyne said:

Who are the Buckinghales?

Do they have a website and/or social media?

Oh, and we can fill in the Buckingham details and Maxwell connection once you are familiar with the Hale's story. It really deserves reading completely rather than a quick FJ summary!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, nelliebelle1197 said:

Oh, and we can fill in the Buckingham details and Maxwell connection once you are familiar with the Hale's story. It really deserves reading completely rather than a quick FJ summary!

Be aware the story involves truly horrific abuse of children.   

[nelliebelle1197]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Be aware the story involves truly horrific abuse of children.   

@sophrosyne It does so be careful if that upsets you too much, but it does have a happyish ending!

[Lisafer]

6 hours ago, sophrosyne said:

Who are the Buckinghales?

Do they have a website and/or social media?

"Pilgrim's Wilderness" by Tom Kizzia is an excellent (although horrifyingly vivid) book about the Hale family. "He Heard His Brother Call His Name," by Patsy Dorris Hale, is a less excellent, strongly biased account, but if you read between the lines you can really start to understand where Papa Pilgrim's sociopathic behavior was spawned and nurtured. 

[nelliebelle1197]

2 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

"Pilgrim's Wilderness" by Tom Kizzia is an excellent (although horrifyingly vivid) book about the Hale family. "He Heard His Brother Call His Name," by Patsy Dorris Hale, is a less excellent, strongly biased account, but if you read between the lines you can really start to understand where Papa Pilgrim's sociopathic behavior was spawned and nurtured. 

I listened to the audiobook. If I did not have 27 audiobooks in que, 37 paper books and 107 podcasts to catch up on, I would listen again. I just listened to Under The Banner of Heaven for the second time (and have read it once; I love Krakauer's writing) and realized I had forgotten most of the story!

[sophrosyne]

Zounds...!

Thank you all for the direction and warnings. In reading about Hale, I realized that I’d read about him elsewhere but never connected his brutal horrors to our fundies. Naive me.

And to compound the zounds, I live 90 minutes from Mora, NM, where Jack Nicholson owned the property on which Papa Pilgrim had his New Mexico homestead. I visit a friend near there several times a year. Lots of barely on the grid people still in the nooks and crannies of that area. 

A used copy of the Kizzia Book is heading my way.

And a Buckingham-Hale family are pals of John and Chelsy?! Anyone know why or how? Family Camp connection? Zounds....

[nastyhobbitses]

Re Buckinghale connection to the Maxwells: Not entirely sure how close they are, but I know that Chris photographed a Buckingham daughter's wedding (Maryanna). The pictures were atrocious, but the bride looked happy as can be. 

[Triplet3]

Joseph Hale was a groomsman at John and Chelsy’s wedding. The Maxwells and Buck-Hales go way back. The other week I was looking at previous years on the Maxwell blog and back in 2010 or so, Sarah posted about seeing Lolly Hale when she was engaged or possibly newly married (she definitely didn’t have any children yet, at any rate) and described her as a good friend. I think the Buck-Hales have always been fundie enough for the Maxwells to be friends with them.

Incidentally, I don’t buy into the theory that Steve or the other Maxwells disapprove of Chelsy. The Bontragers are hardcore fundie despite the girls wearing trousers sometimes, and are highly conceited and self-righteous to boot. I’m sure they fit right in. They have the same hyper-focus on family and while the Bontragers do seem to have more friends outside the family, and in some respects don’t seem quite so weird as the Maxwells, I don’t think the Maxwells were ever quite so isolationist as they appear on their blog, thanks to their conference travelling. Plus, the Maxwells seem to have made a conscious effort the last few years to be more outward-focused, and I think the Bontragers are connected to this. Also, according to John’s account of his and Chelsy’s love story it was Sarah who asked him if he’d consider getting to know Chelsy better - so she clearly approves.

[Captain Obvious]

I think the Maxwells and Buckinghams have known each other for at least 15 years - the Buckingham dad used to be based in the army at Ft Leavenworth before the family moved to Alaska (which I'm guessing was late 90s/early 2000s) so that's how they know each other.

That said, it appears the Maxwells only know the Hales because of their connection with the Buckinghams, and the Hales and Buckinghams didn't meet until they were all in Alaska in the early 2000s, so that doesn't explain how John knows Joseph Hale well enough to make him a groomsman, since it appears their whole friendship has been conducted while John was in Kansas and Joseph in Alaska.

Actually that's kind of sad - his only friend that got to be a groomsmen is a guy he would surely see only a few times a year, max. And John had fewer groomsmen than Chelsy had bridesmaids so he could have had more guys in his wedding party, but it didn't seem like he had anyone else to ask.

[Lisafer]

The Hales seem quite social-media averse (can't blame them) but I've seen a photo or two of Elishaba Hale (now Doerksen, I believe). She's married with kids and looks happy, and I'm so glad she's made a life for herself. I wish her great joy and peace after all that she endured at the hands of her father. It makes me want to cry just thinking about it.

[johnhugh]

On 11/24/2018 at 11:01 AM, Triplet3 said:

Joseph Hale was a groomsman at John and Chelsy’s wedding. The Maxwells and Buck-Hales go way back. .

On the subject of groomsmen, did our old friend John-Marie attend the wedding as he and John were good friends at one stage comparing  each other’s irrigation systems. Or has he been cut off since JM married that beautician hussy?

[Katzchen24]

On 11/24/2018 at 11:17 AM, nelliebelle1197 said:

Oh, and we can fill in the Buckingham details and Maxwell connection once you are familiar with the Hale's story. It really deserves reading completely rather than a quick FJ summary!

So that was a truly horrible rabbit-hole ? I really hope the Hale children have found contentment and peace after all that's happened. 

The breadth and scope of the abuse that these entitled, patriarchal assholes can dish out is a bit overwhelming. None of these kids should have to suffer through the kind of squashing of their lives and choices into moulds that weren't of their choosing.

[nelliebelle1197]

1 hour ago, Katzchen24 said:

So that was a truly horrible rabbit-hole ? I really hope the Hale children have found contentment and peace after all that's happened. 

The breadth and scope of the abuse that these entitled, patriarchal assholes can dish out is a bit overwhelming. None of these kids should have to suffer through the kind of squashing of their lives and choices into moulds that weren't of their choosing.

I am sorry

It is awful isn't it? I did not want to try to summarize it - it needs to be read in its unfiltered horror.

As to the Max-Buck-Hale connection, Steve is long-time what some might call friends with father Buckingham. The clans are close and have been for years and years. I am not surprised John is close to one of the boys, and I would bet a million they have a LOT of more contact with the BuckHales than we know about. I would also bet they have a lot more friends than we know about, especially the J boys.

On 11/24/2018 at 6:41 AM, Captain Obvious said:

I think the Maxwells and Buckinghams have known each other for at least 15 years - the Buckingham dad used to be based in the army at Ft Leavenworth before the family moved to Alaska (which I'm guessing was late 90s/early 2000s) so that's how they know each other.

That said, it appears the Maxwells only know the Hales because of their connection with the Buckinghams, and the Hales and Buckinghams didn't meet until they were all in Alaska in the early 2000s, so that doesn't explain how John knows Joseph Hale well enough to make him a groomsman, since it appears their whole friendship has been conducted while John was in Kansas and Joseph in Alaska.

Actually that's kind of sad - his only friend that got to be a groomsmen is a guy he would surely see only a few times a year, max. And John had fewer groomsmen than Chelsy had bridesmaids so he could have had more guys in his wedding party, but it didn't seem like he had anyone else to ask.

I think it has been more than 15 years.  Also, like I said above, the Maxwells have more friends and do more visiting than we know about. I would not doubt the BuckHales and Maxwells get together frequently. As to the groomsmen, I can see John only wanting certain people to whom he was close while Chelsy wanted everyone and anyone she's ever met.  It's not like John could not fill in the ranks with various Botrangers if he wanted an even match.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Fundie wiki has the Buckinghales listed and it’s crazy how both families not only marry each other, but they each marry people from the same other families. Like the Rubios. They seem to only marry people from a few families and that’s it.

[petrushka]

10 hours ago, johnhugh said:

On the subject of groomsmen, did our old friend John-Marie attend the wedding as he and John were good friends at one stage comparing  each other’s irrigation systems. Or has he been cut off since JM married that beautician hussy?

I don't know if he's been cut off, but I do know he and his wife were expecting a baby in December 2017 per his instagram.  

[BullyJBG]

1 hour ago, petrushka said:

I don't know if he's been cut off, but I do know he and his wife were expecting a baby in December 2017 per his instagram.  

Someone said that they had a baby girl, and it was about the time of John and Chelsy's wedding. Haven't heard anything else since, right? They got private about social media because they know they're talked about due to their association with the Maxwells. JMO.

[fundiefan]

Pompous Joshua Bontrager posted a picture of Thanksgiving, and John & Chelsy did indeed spend it with the Bontragers. 

I sincerely wonder what John thought of all the food? Choices! And, from what we can tell from their blogging, flavor! Seasoning on everything! It really had to be some sort of Thanksgiving culture shock. Although I'm sure he's had plenty Bontrager meals to be used to it by now, it still had to be something of a shift to have a holiday meal not bogged down by scheduling, limited work, minimal choices, and full plates. 

[Dru]

I can't imagine he'll ever want to spend a TG with his family again.

[0 kids n not countin]

Their use of paper plates, cutlery, and napkins for a formal dinner really bugs me, not to mention how bad it is for the environment.  I understand that it's a lot of work to use real plates, silverware, and napkins for that many people, but come on, it's a special occasion, why not use your fancy stuff?  If it were being served buffet style it wouldn't bug me as much (though yes, still bad for the environment) but for a formal, sitdown dinner, no, just no (imo anyway).

[courtlylove]

2 hours ago, 0 kids n not countin said:

Their use of paper plates, cutlery, and napkins for a formal dinner really bugs me, not to mention how bad it is for the environment.  I understand that it's a lot of work to use real plates, silverware, and napkins for that many people, but come on, it's a special occasion, why not use your fancy stuff?  If it were being served buffet style it wouldn't bug me as much (though yes, still bad for the environment) but for a formal, sitdown dinner, no, just no (imo anyway).

At least they have a cloth on the table - I don't think I've ever seen a tablecloth on the Maxwells' tables.